Aerial choke over Murder choke.

[Ray_Kalm]

Well I just wanted to point out that a aerial choke is much more successful then a murder choke in almost every way but it's range, it has more speed, priority and it inflicts a couple more damage.

I personally began to use aerial choke more often then murder choke, and doing so has helped me more in my matches. I usually follow up with a aerial choke right after a down throw, to a mind setup game, at early percentages.

 

[Gleam]

However, is it not harder to do follow ups with Aerial chokes, like Jabs, ftilts and dtilts?

 

[:034:]

Isn't it laggier?

 

[Gleam]

that's what I'm thinking, the lag on it doesn't allow for follow ups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think Aerial Choke allows you to do true combos the same way Murder Choke does because instead of dropping your opponent from a height before allowing you to do other moves, the Aerial choke immediately plants them on the ground before you get to do other moves.

But it's definitely better when the goal is just techchasing. It has less ending lag when you miss, which is awesome.

 

[:034:]

Point, it's a bit better for techchasing, but if they buffer an attack, you might just get hit, ending your streak...

It does do 12%, I believe.

 

[hyperstation]

I don't think there are any consistent follow-ups, its true, but I've had very good success following up out of shield after an aerial choke, especially with dtilt. This of course assumes a get up attack.

I like the idea of following up down throws with it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I honestly forgot about the lag on it, which in fact could be a pain.

Their are a few follow up after a aerial choke > Shield.

 

[hyperstation]

I honestly forgot about the lag on it, which in fact could be a pain.

Their are a few follow up after a aerial choke > Shield.

Like I said, this is assuming the opponent does a get up attack.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Like I said, this is assuming the opponent does a get up attack.

Yeah, though I still think the aerial choke is a better approach then the murder.

 

[hyperstation]

Yeah, though I still think the aerial choke is a better approach then the murder.

You've yet to prove this to me. Regular murder choking gives so many options for mind game follow ups in addition to guaranteed follow ups, something which is especially important in clutch situations where you can't be taking as many risks and just need to get the percent.

I concede that the notion that the lag is lower when you miss is something of great merit. In fact, if anything this thread has given me reason to re-investigate this aspect of the choke for approaching but also for quicker spacing/stage movement. I recall the video sliq did where he was showing how to aerial choke after a super short hop from the ledge, and the most interesting part of that, I'm sure you'll agree, is the fact that the lag is WAY shorter than normal, and it slides a fair distance. This aspect of the aerial choke is of particular interest to me, but I still entirely disagree that it's superior to the standard choke. I challenge you to flesh out all the possibilities the aerial choke game supplies us with and report back to us. I'll start playing with this too when I'm back home with my wii next week.

 

[Swoops]

Also, I was pretty sure that the start up on aerial gerudo is slower because you actually have to get into the air first, which takes a longer than one would think. I'm not sure on the priority argument either, because doing some testing they look like they get killed by the same things.

I think overall, aerial gerudo is better as an approach, but they both have their distinct uses.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You've yet to prove this to me. Regular murder choking gives so many options for mind game follow ups in addition to guaranteed follow ups, something which is especially important in clutch situations where you can't be taking as many risks and just need to get the percent.

I concede that the notion that the lag is lower when you miss is something of great merit. In fact, if anything this thread has given me reason to re-investigate this aspect of the choke for approaching but also for quicker spacing/stage movement. I recall the video sliq did where he was showing how to aerial choke after a super short hop from the ledge, and the most interesting part of that, I'm sure you'll agree, is the fact that the lag is WAY shorter than normal, and it slides a fair distance. This aspect of the aerial choke is of particular interest to me, but I still entirely disagree that it's superior to the standard choke. I challenge you to flesh out all the possibilities the aerial choke game supplies us with and report back to us. I'll start playing with this too when I'm back home with my wii next week.

If that's how you want to deal with this problem, then alright, I'll get to it.

 

[Jekyll]

If you're confident that you can predict everything your opponent will do before they do it, then go right ahead with the aerial choke, because unlike the grounded choke, there are no guaranteed followups. There ARE situational ones, though. For example, if certain characters, like fox, try to roll away from you after an aerial choke you can hold forward(important because every pixel literally counts) and down tilt and it will actually knock him out of the roll.

But since the opponent regains control of their character at the same time as (or possibly BEFORE) you do, the only think you're really safe doing is shielding.

The way that I see it is that the grounded choke is superior since not only do you have Guaranteed followups on the vast majority of the cast...and not only can some of these followups KO or lead into more attacks, but you're also free to try and predict what the opponent will do without the possibility of taking damage. On the other hand, aerial choke has no guaranteed followups and leave's you vulnerable from the moment you hit the ground. The only "safe" think you can do is shield since their getup attack will come out faster than you can jump, run, or do any of your attacks. Even if you could hit with a followup, it's nothing that you couldn't do more easily out of a grounded choke. It's like you're trading safety and guaranteed damage for the extra 2-4% that the aerial choke does...not a wise choice.

If somebody can check the startup times for the two moves, that would be great, but with my current knowledge they're the same (any difference is negligible). Wind down for the aerial MIGHT be less, but it's nothing spectacular or even noticeable, really. One benefit of the aerial choke was that it let you switch directions while running and choke backwards, but we've known for months(or at least I thought we did) that you can reverse the grounded choke in the same way.

Am I missing anything?

 

[Swoops]

*Jekyll bamfs in like dark magic and posts intellegent things everything at the exact same time.* I'm positive that the start is more on the aerial choke if you actually factor in the jump, which you should. I'll check them out though. Same as where quake is actually a lot more frames just because of the jump animation. Less cooldown on aerial gerudo is practically nothing, and no follow ups kinda hurt aerial version a lot. And doing even more testing, aerial choke doesn't necessarily have more priority than grounded, just has different timing and a hitbox overall.

 

[Swoops]

Alright, did some frame testing and distance testing with the two versions and I've come to a solid conclusion...Just use grounded choke. Unless your goal is mess with their head from far away and DJ>aerial gerudo or something, just stick to normal gerudo.

If you don't include the time to get off the ground before the aerial choke, they are the exact same start up time. If you do include the jump start up, which I would, it's slower by around 6 frames. Not too much but it's there. Aerial choke is only slightly more laggy, and I mean slightly...like 2 frames. Really the only advantage I can find to the aerial version is that it looks like it has a little bit more duration. But you might be able to chalk that up to the fact that if you do an aerial gerudo right next to somebody you go straight through them -_-. Add in that aerial has no guaranteed follow ups and grounded gerudo is far superior.

 

[Hyrus]

I don't prefer an aerial wizard foot over a grounded one. I don't prefer Luigi's aerial DownB over his grounded DownB. Different properties have different applications.

Counting the jump as extra startup time isn't practical, as you may be in the air already when you decide to use it. Whereas an enemy may be ready to sidestep/attack while in grounded choke range, an enemy is going to react defensively when Ganon takes to the air in order to take advantage of his aerial ending lag. A surprise aerial choke can take people off guard... I mean really, what's your instinctive reaction to Ganon short hopping?

The grounded version is more practical if it's a choice between them, but more often than not, the situation will decide the matter for you. All in all, you'll use the grounded choke more often.

 

[Swoops]

I think adding the jump start time in there is pretty practical. Mostly because he's talking about using aerial gerudo in place of grounded and out of shield. That and the fact that a lot of characters can only be hit with aerial Gerudo directly out of short hop means you're probably going to want to compare aerial gerudo to grounded with the jump time included.

 

[technomancer]

It's actually about the same as dropping your shield and doing it, and the aerial one starts up a touch faster and moves more quickly. This debate is kinda old so I won't get too into detail, but if you want to chaingrab predictable people, use the aerial one to chase, and there are a bunch of full jump setups that you can use, also grabbing ppl's feet, etc.