Aerial Needle Cancel [Discussion] Rev. & Non-Rev.

[False Soundz]

I don't find this as an AT, I'm just opening this thread for discussion.

I'm not sure if this has been discovered, but I checked the threads and had no signs of discovery. So here goes, it's pretty mediocre, just saying.

Techniques only viable with the REVERSED cancel will be in red.

It's a new way to approach with sheik, acting as a technique and a mindgame at the same.

1. Run towards opponent
2. Short hop or full hop.
3. Press the control stick in the opposite direction [For Reversed]

4. Immediately after hit b [to charge needles]
5. Then immediately cancel the charge or let it charge for a little while.
6. Then either up-air,fair, bair, nair, or FF d smash.

This is basically a regular short hop but you quickly charge your needles and cancel them, allowing for mindgames, momentum canceling, and charging some needles.

This is basically RAR but it gives a quick animation of Sheik facing towards you and then a needle charge. It also cancels momentum allowing you space properly with bair and nair to avoid being grabbed. The actual RAR doesn't space you from grabs.


[Update Dec 8] It also lets you get behind an opponent, but beware of certain characters UP-B out of shield.

Up-air is tricky to land, you have to be closer to the opponent and you have to cancel it instantly, basically meaning up air is pretty much a dumb idea to use, unless your opponent doesn't block and is at low percents, because up-air can lead to combo's.



What's the use of this?

1. Mindgames : Your opponent wont realize what happened right away and will only notice a quick flashy short hop to a bair.

Your opponent will notice you charging needles, meaning they might let their guards down.

So now he's thinking is he/she going to do the bair, the nair, the fair, or the up-air? This approach basically allows for 4 aerials and a guessing game with the opponent.

You can either do this while approaching or do a standard fair or nair approach. Obviously this gives you another approach in your gameplay.

2. Needle charge: This lets you get one ring sound from your needle charge indicating that you charged at least one needle. This is a RAR that allows you to charge needles and attack the enemy with 3 aerials.
Wow, pretty cool lol.

3. Alternate approach: Basically same as a mindgame, just keeps your opponent guessing.



Ok sorry was being kinda repetitive, let me sum this up for you.

This is basically a new approach for Sheik, this lets her run up to an opponent feint a regular SH and then charge a needle, cancel the charge and bair, nair, or up-air the opponent. This cancels momentum so if you bair or nair this CAN prevent shield grabs, meaning this can act as a shield pressure game.

Of course you can use regular RAR and then needle in the opposite direction of your momentum get the same effect + get grabbed? Why? With this you won't get grabbed and it's easier.

Video will be up soon.

Discussion anyone?

 

[Rohins]

Outside of being tricky what do you feel is advantageous of canceling your momentum? Would you use this more for tight spacing or is there another purpose?

 

[False Soundz]

Outside of being tricky what do you feel is advantageous of canceling your momentum? Would you use this more for tight spacing or is there another purpose?

I'd say if people messed with this more, like I did the past few hours, we can discover more uses.

Canceling momentum is a huge part of spacing with this attack. By canceling momentum after the aerial this can prevent you from getting shield grabbed. This can set your opponent up for a false grab. (thinking they can grab you, but you're spaced so they wont be able to) after that you can punish.

Another use would be edge guarding, you can ledge drop, jump, and then use the reverse needle cancel to shoot a single needle to disrupt an up-b.

I'm sure there are more uses, just need to think of some.

 

[Atire]

Nice find. What inspired you to make this? Smln ablu?

 

[False Soundz]

I was messing around in training mode, and just found this out.

I was actually mad inspired to find something out, but when I found this out I actually didn't have that on my mind.

 

[Palpi]

Once again. Another way to approach is always nice, but this can and will leave you punishable if your opponent catches on, not the best ways to approach all the time, (like any approach) but it seems like a good idea for a mindgame spamming technique. With a video the whole concept could be much clearer though.

 

[False Soundz]

Yeah, everything will get you punished if someone catches on, the point is to mix it up with all other approaches so you wont get punished and keep your opponent guessing.

 

[Palpi]

Have you tested, fullhopping over the person and throwing the needle, then ground combo'ing with this? Full hopping to avoid possible attacks, then needle to catch them off guard then finish with a ftilt lock? I have taken noticed to this reverse thing before, but never really thought it would be useful, but I need to test it out for myself / see a video for better clarification.

This probably doesn't work, but I can't test stuff right now because I have to wake up in 5 hours.

It could be a decent change of pace, especially if you are playing on a stage like smashville or battle field to get on platforms.

 

[Tristan_win]

First of let me just say Reversed Aerial needle canceling has been know ever since melee, however even so you have manage to bring up something I and most likely everyone from the melee generation might of overlooked.

"This is basically a regular short hop but you quickly charge your needles and cancel them, allowing for mindgames, momentum canceling, and charging some needles."

After this football game ends I'll have to check this out and see if this does have any true value.

 

[East]

Panther's own.

On a more relevant note, I was wondering what is the difference between a reversed aerial needles and b-sticking?

 

[<π]

I thought I posted about this a long time back... at least about reversing momentum.

It takes 15 frames to pull needles and immediately cancel them significantly longer to charge a single needle since about a month after release I've been trying to incorporate this, specifically reversing momentum to mix up my approach and throw out better spaced back airs out of a forward dashing jump approach.

I would advise agianst full jumping to charge needles since if you have much better defensive options on the ground (rolls, shields, cancel -> jab) In the air you are much more limited with the only options being a cancel into an aerial or dodge that follows a very predictable path. This, in my experience, just takes way to long against characters with strong or even mediocre air games.

You also start 5 frames faster which I think is a needle right there.

Full hop to needle storm is awesome though get used to that. No lag needle storm -> dash attack. But thats no where near what we are talking about.

My results have been less than stellar with all variations of this tech... after a few matches my opponents adapted and learned to attack during my instant needle cancel, and there wasn't much I could do agianst a quick marth or a smart d3 with that alone.

It takes a lot of practice to get "instant needle cancel + momentum reversing + DI + attack" down. Does it pay off? Well for me yes and no. With sheik I bait approaches and this tech sort of adds another dimension of mobility to her, BUT it does leave her open to fast attacks from people with a good range. Use it wisely and sparingly.

 

[False Soundz]

Yeah, I knew about this in melee, I just haven't seen anyone looking at this from brawls Perspective. That's why I brought it up.

I said it before but I'll say it again, the momentum cancel is one of the biggest reasons to use this. It cancels your momentum unlike RAR, this is the only reason I wouldn't RAR bair or nair.

With the canceled momentum it can bait, mindgame, and space you from grabs. Try messing around with it and post what you guys find out.

 

[Palpi]

I could see a nair being useful during this. Useful as in sparingly used, and specifically (characters) used.

 

[demodemo]

uhhh what

ok, mindgames, sure, use it once or twice and your opponent is going to catch on.

approach and space for aerials? naaaaw, at least not any better than RAR

i RAR all the time, because i know that bair goes through many aerials and has the range to do it. so i can say a few things about RAR

you can space with RAR bair. after beginning the pivot after the dash, short hop and use the cstick to do the bair while holding backwards if you are really afraid of getting grabbed. honestly, it should rarely happen while fighting most characters. (dedede MAY be able to grab you, i don't know)

second, it is slow. even if you do the needle cancel right away, it will still be slower than just doing a bair. with no real reason to do the needle (since you can space with RAR just as well) it becomes completely unnecessary animation. why do abcd when you can just do ad? For teh mindgames? then ok, i guess it can be a mindgame.

ehh get you behind an opponent? i'm not sure what you mean, unless you are saying you hop over your opponent and do an aerial. in which case...hop over and do an aerial.

i'm missing something here...momentum cancel, if anything is a bad thing, and if it spacing is really that important, improve stick control :\

 

[<π]

RAR telegraphs movement and takes arguably just as long to pull off. You also miss smaller characters because you kick over their head if you immediately bair. If you are going to wait to bair tilt you are falling you might as well reverse momentum with needles.

For bair my opponents, for the most part, don't let me run up and use it. They read through my turn animation and see my options and space/attack accordingly. I hate RAR it takes too long with every character. :/

 

[False Soundz]

Lol thanks <3, someone to back me up.

demodemo, I see what you mean. But I think you're missing the point of the mindgames. It's not meant to be used everytime, the point of it is that you have variety in your gameplay. This throws your opponent of guard, he wont know what you're going to do, RAR, RNC, NC, or just regular approach.

RAR doesn't cancel momentum allowing you to get grabbed easily, or miss over someone's head like <3 said.

 

[demodemo]

yeah but if you are kicking over their head, against characters like pika then you should just do the bair later, or just hit with weak bair

like i said before, rar is the greatest thing ever, i swear it is impossible to see the pivot animation. if you can, you are not jumping fast enough.

i don't know about the opponent not knowing how i am going to approach. i almost always use bair..because it works. maybe doing the needle cancel will throw your opponent off, maybe it won't. i don't know. variety? sure i guess, but i still think the momentum cancel is not worth the effort. (i am not getting shield grabbed anyway)

 

[Palpi]

Often hitting with weak bairs and nairs can be more beneficial for potential % because you can more easily combo out of them, in certain situations.

 

[False Soundz]

Often hitting with weak bairs and nairs can be more beneficial for potential % because you can more easily combo out of them, in certain situations.

Yeah that's what I do in every case. Weak bairs or nairs, and then at higher percents once a person realizes I'm going to approach with a fair or bair, I use the Rev. Needle Cancel and get a strong bair on them.

 

[Flamingo]

Why does everything have to be about mindgames??

 

[Villi]

Why can't you just forward roll and dsmash??