AI Shaidrops 20xx Samus Movement

[Litt]

So I'm sure a lot of you have seen JerkPhil's missile tech video, AI on plat to Isai drop missile. I wanted to see how difficult it would be to shai drop AIs, and here is the result.

https://youtu.be/maEFcLWz62M

Timing is weird AF, and its kinda tight but once you get it down you can use this pretty consistently. What this reminds me of is pseudo double jump cancel aerials because of the way the momentum just switches instantly. When successfully performing up air AI on plats, the frame at which you land up until frame 4, bring control stick downward and frame following that, light shield (or if you have an analog trigger button you can just press it in and it works the same).


@BillNyeTheSamusGuy this was one of the techs i was hinting at when I was telling you in the SLWD thread that I have a few more tricks in the old samus bag that are still in development, finally had the time to sit down today, practice it and make this quick video.

 

[tauKhan]

I tried AI - > shai drops when I saw the original thread about AI missiles, and I found it pretty easy to do, so I don't see any reason not to do it if you're going for the AI missiles. Because you always land after fixed amount of frames after inputting the aerial, all you need to do is timing the down input right relatively to the aerial timing. It's 2 frame window, so it's kinda easy to just learn to muscle memory.

Shai drops also give you a micro spacing tool when doing the plat missiles, since you can also shai drop out of dash.

 

[JerkPhil]

Nice stuff!

 

[ManoxMano]

I can see a dude coming down from the top platform and doing their dair move while your under the platform, AI Shaidrop it and then come back with your own dair or bair

 

[Litt]

Sure lol, i just thought it was an interesting movement option

 

[tauKhan]

I think that AI ledge cancels are also doable, those are even faster.

 

[The Hunter]

same opinion like taukhan, but nice stuff thou!

 

[Litt]

I think that AI ledge cancels are also doable, those are even faster.

Of course, they are even easier to do, but they are only applicable on plat ledges, while this is applicable on any plat which you can drop through, you could even do AI Shai drops on randall xP

Just a side thought though, if you do ledge cancel the AI, does that = 0 frame landing lag which means you could regularly drop from the plat at frame 1?

 

[tauKhan]

I don't know about the options during the ottotto which will occur if you face the ledge and don't hold forward to fall over. I guess you probably can regular drop from it. Though since the regular drop is 3 frames slower than perfect shai drop, that ends up being only equally fast with AI -> shai drop.

 

[Litt]

I don't know about the options during the ottotto which will occur if you face the ledge and don't hold forward to fall over. I guess you probably can regular drop from it. Though since the regular drop is 3 frames slower than perfect shai drop, that ends up being only equally fast with AI -> shai drop.

Nah AI shai drop buffered you can do it during the first 4 frames of landing lag, so actually slower

 

[tauKhan]

I don't quite follow you, so here's the breakdown:

AI shai drop:
1: Landing
2: Landing
3: Landing
4: Landing
5: Shield
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Immediate ledge ottotto:
1: Landing
2: ottotto
3: Drop
4: Drop
5: Drop
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Edit2: The original form was correct, the drops are both equally fast

 

[Litt]

I don't quite follow you, so here's the breakdown:

AI shai drop:
1: Landing
2: Landing
3: Landing
4: Landing
5: Shield
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Immediate ledge ottotto:
1: Landing
2: ottotto
3: Drop
4: Drop
5: Drop
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Forgot originally that you'll still go to landing before the ottotto, so that actually makes it even.

Here is the real break down, Landing 1 with up air, same frame, press down, frame 2, light shield, 3 drop 4 actionable, you can buffer the shai drop frames 1-4 of landing, past 4 is when you can no longer do it

 

[tauKhan]

You have 2 frame window to input the shai drop to happen as soon as you're actionable, but you can't get shield out (or do anything else for that matter) during the landing lag.

 

[Litt]

You can buffer the shai drop to happen as soon as you're actionable, but you can't get shield out (or do anything else for that matter) during the landing lag.

Not sure about that dude, watch the video i posted above, there are instances where the landing lag was clearly visable (4 frames of such, then shai drop), however there are also instances of instant drop from platfrom as soon as AI grounds samus, which means you can interrupt the landing lag (2nd frame after land, if you tilt down during the AI, and light shield frame 2)

 

[tauKhan]

I see landing lag in every single case. Landing with aerial always causes either impact land (regular landing with usually 4 frames of lag) or the aerials own landing, NIL isn't possible with aerials.

 

[Litt]

I see landing lag in every single case. Landing with aerial always causes either impact land (regular landing with usually 4 frames of lag) or the aerials own landing, NIL isn't possible with aerials.

Yes... but Shai drops allow you to drop during impact lands, ie. frames 1-4

Frame 0 - land, down + shield
Frame 1 - down + shield
Frame 2 - down + shield
Frame 3 - down + shield = shield
Frame 4 - down + shield = drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - down
Frame 2 - down
Frame 3 - down
Frame 4 - down + shield = shield
Frame 5 - down + shield = drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - down
Frame 2 - down
Frame 3 - down
Frame 4 - down
Frame 5 - down + shield = shield
Frame 6 - down + shield = drop

Perfect Isai Drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - landing lag
Frame 2 - landing lag
Frame 3 - tilt forward
Frame 4 - down = squat
Frame 5 - down = squat
Frame 6 - down = squat
Frame 7 - down = drop

 

[tauKhan]

Yes... but Shai drops allow you to drop during impact lands, ie. frames 1-4

This is easy to disprove yourself even without access to anything else than vanilla melee: Go into the training mode, and check in 1/4 slow motion how fast your shield comes up if you hold it during landing. It definitely doesn't come up any sooner than you can for example walk, so no kind of shielddropping is possible.

Also you cut out 1 frame of landing lag out of your isai drop breakdown.

 

[Litt]

This is easy to disprove yourself even without access to anything else than vanilla melee: Go into the training mode, and check in 1/4 slow motion how fast your shield comes up if you hold it during landing. It definitely doesn't come up any sooner than you can for example walk, so no kind of shielddropping is possible.

Also you cut out 1 frame of landing lag out of your isai drop breakdown.

Its not my breakdown genius...

http://smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/

Your data is the one that needs double checking...

Method 4 - Standing / Landing Lag Drop

The Shai drop can be done from landing lag from jumping, from a SHL, etc. When you land on a platform with no aerial lag, there are 30 frames of lag where you cannot drop through the platform. You can walk from this lag after 3 frames, then press down, which puts you in a squat animation and then you drop through the platform. This is the Isai Drop. The Shai drop can also be done during the early frames of the landing lag. It is faster than the Isai drop. A Shai drop from landing lag is 3 frames faster than a perfect Isai drop.

This method accepts several different possible timings. If you press down on the first lag frame, you can press R anywhere from 0 to 4 frames later and it will still work. This is because your down press does not read into spot dodge during the first frame of lag so it is ignored for that purpose. If you do not press down on the first lag frame, the timing is like Method 1. You may press down any point during the landing lag starting from 1 frame after landing (all the way up to 30 frames), and from there timing is like Method 1. Here are a few possible timings, as well as a perfect Isai drop for comparison.

Spoiler: Frame Data
Toggle SpoilerFrame 0 - land, down + shield
Frame 1 - down + shield
Frame 2 - down + shield
Frame 3 - down + shield = shield
Frame 4 - down + shield = drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - down
Frame 2 - down
Frame 3 - down
Frame 4 - down + shield = shield
Frame 5 - down + shield = drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - down
Frame 2 - down
Frame 3 - down
Frame 4 - down
Frame 5 - down + shield = shield
Frame 6 - down + shield = drop

Perfect Isai Drop

Frame 0 - landing lag
Frame 1 - landing lag
Frame 2 - landing lag
Frame 3 - tilt forward
Frame 4 - down = squat
Frame 5 - down = squat
Frame 6 - down = squat
Frame 7 - down = drop

 

[Litt]

This is easy to disprove yourself even without access to anything else than vanilla melee: Go into the training mode, and check in 1/4 slow motion how fast your shield comes up if you hold it during landing. It definitely doesn't come up any sooner than you can for example walk, so no kind of shielddropping is possible.

Also you cut out 1 frame of landing lag out of your isai drop breakdown.

I think you need to just stay on your vanilla melee and practice before correcting other people bud

 

[tauKhan]

Doesn't matter whose mistake, it's still there. Shai states there that the landing lag is 3 frames, but I have quite a few sources that say it's 4 (except for pichu, ganondorf, dk and bowser), which I think are more credible. Here's Kadano's vid on the subject:

Though this vid is a little confusing, since he states that you can do actions only after the lag (4 frames), but at the same time marks the 4th landing frame as actionable. I guess he means that actions can be input on that frame, but I'll summon @ Kadano to clarify this just to make sure.

 

[Litt]

Doesn't matter whose mistake, it's still there. Shai states there that the landing lag is 3 frames, but I have quite a few sources that say it's 4 (except for pichu, ganondorf, dk and bowser), which I think are more credible. Here's Kadano's vid on the subject:

Though this vid is a little confusing, since he states that you can do actions after the lag (4 frames), but at the same time marks the 4th landing frame as actionable. I guess he means that actions can be input on that frame, but I'll summon @ Kadano to clarify this just to make sure.

You misunderstand, the shai drop guide counts frame 0 as the action frame of either point of landing (impact land), or the AI land, your Kadano video, counts frame 1, as the first frame being the action of landing. Just different points of reference, no frame missing :/ the only mistake is your own for not understanding the reference point of 0 vs 1

 

[Kadano]

Doesn't matter whose mistake, it's still there. Shai states there that the landing lag is 3 frames, but I have quite a few sources that say it's 4 (except for pichu, ganondorf, dk and bowser), which I think are more credible. Here's Kadano's vid on the subject:

Though this vid is a little confusing, since he states that you can do actions only after the lag (4 frames), but at the same time marks the 4th landing frame as actionable. I guess he means that actions can be input on that frame, but I'll summon @ Kadano to clarify this just to make sure.

My frame counters always take the perspective of frame-by-frame mode. When landing 4 is rendered, you are actionable—if you hold A right now, you will attack etc.
We had this issue a few times already, and again, I can easily see how others might prefer it to have the “actionable” mark only from frame 5 onwards. But when you actually are in develop mode, that’s not how you look at it. You don’t go to landing 5 and notice “oh, I could have done something at this frame instead”; you think “this is landing 4, if I hold inputs now and press frame advance, an action will start, so I’m actionable now.”

You misunderstand, the shai drop guide counts frame 0 as the action frame of either point of landing (impact land), or the AI land, your Kadano video, counts frame 1, as the first frame being the action of landing. Just different points of reference, no frame missing :/ the only mistake is your own for not understanding the reference point of 0 vs 1

I don’t know where shai has taken his numbers from, but parts of them are wrong and you can easily check this for yourself with develop mode. Just because someone made a big thread about it, doesn’t mean that everything in there is 100% fact. If there are uncertainties, you should check the original source to find out the truth, and not cling on to someone else’s words as if they were the absolute truth.

Impact landing lag is 4 frames for Samus.
The fastest shield drop methods take 1 frame to get the shield out and drop on the next. So the frame you drop at is frame 6.
Frame 7 is the first frame you can start an aerial attack or other action at.

If you start counting with 0—for whatever reason—that would be 6. Not 4.

 

[Litt]

My frame counters always take the perspective of frame-by-frame mode. When landing 4 is rendered, you are actionable—if you hold A right now, you will attack etc.
We had this issue a few times already, and again, I can easily see how others might prefer it to have the “actionable” mark only from frame 5 onwards. But when you actually are in develop mode, that’s not how you look at it. You don’t go to landing 5 and notice “oh, I could have done something at this frame instead”; you think “this is landing 4, if I hold inputs now and press frame advance, an action will start, so I’m actionable now.”




I don’t know where shai has taken his numbers from, but parts of them are wrong and you can easily check this for yourself with develop mode. Just because someone made a big thread about it, doesn’t mean that everything in there is 100% fact. If there are uncertainties, you should check the original source to find out the truth, and not cling on to someone else’s words as if they were the absolute truth.

Impact landing lag is 4 frames for Samus.
The fastest shield drop methods take 1 frame to get the shield out and drop on the next. So the frame you drop at is frame 6.
Frame 7 is the first frame you can start an aerial attack or other action at.

If you start counting with 0—for whatever reason—that would be 6. Not 4.

Well thank you for clarifying Kadano, I would have thought that someone would have commented in that thread discussing discrepancies in his data by now, but go figure.

I don't quite follow you, so here's the breakdown:

AI shai drop:
1: Landing
2: Landing
3: Landing
4: Landing
5: Shield
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Immediate ledge ottotto:
1: Landing
2: ottotto
3: Drop
4: Drop
5: Drop
6: Drop
7: Actionable

Edit2: The original form was correct, the drops are both equally fast

Looks like you edited your previous post, and concluded they are the same frame duration, welp... what about Immediately ledge ottotto AI shaidrops ;p?

 

[tauKhan]

Immediate ledge ottotto shai drop would replace the 4 frames drop with 1 shield, 1 drop, so that's 2 frames faster.

And yeah, after I had made that post, I watched the schmooblidon's plat movement vid, where he had samus doing jab on frame 6 of landing, so I jumped to conclusion that samuses landing lag would be 5 frames, but later it turned out he just didn't do the jab asap.

I was also very surprised to find the errors in the Shai's thread, I don't blame you . I think I should also mention my sources more often. I'm just kinda lazy, and it takes some amount of work to track those down.

 

[Litt]

Immediate ledge ottotto shai drop would replace the 4 frames drop with 1 shield, 1 drop, so that's 2 frames faster.

And yeah, after I had made that post, I watched the schmooblidon's plat movement vid, where he had samus doing jab on frame 6 of landing, so I jumped to conclusion that samuses landing lag would be 5 frames, but later it turned out he just didn't do the jab asap.

I was also very surprised to find the errors in the Shai's thread, I don't blame you . I think I should also mention my sources more often. I'm just kinda lazy, and it takes some amount of work to track those down.

Fair enough dude, I was looking for videos of your play online but nothing came up you seem on the higher end of competent so I was interested in what your samus would look like. Jab takes 3 frames to come out, so wouldn't it be on frame 7 with AI? or are you just talking about ottotto

 

[Kadano]

Knowledge about game mechanics and actual tournament skill hardly correlate. I think I'm in the top percentile concerning Melee knowledge but my tournament skill is top 10% at most.
Since I started "researching" this game heavily, my interest in practicing and competition has decreased somewhat.
I'm not saying it has to be like that for tauKhan as well, I just want to point out that the correlation between these skillsets is much lower than your post suggests.

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah, jab would be frame 7 out of AI.

And I don't think you would want to watch my gameplay rofl, esp Samus. I'm a bad fox main from finland, roughly top 10ish here. I'm only high tier in frame data and understanding mechanics, thanks to lurking here since 2005 and reading a lot of magus, strong bad and kadanos posts. I visit Samus boards mostly because you've been quite active recently compared to the other boards.

I've been improving lately though, but I don't think there's recent footage of me.

Haha, Kadano was faster, he's right. Though my interest in practicing / becoming better hasn't decreased yet. I'm just naturally scrub lol.

 

[Litt]

Knowledge about game mechanics and actual tournament skill hardly correlate. I think I'm in the top percentile concerning Melee knowledge but my tournament skill is top 10% at most.
Since I started "researching" this game heavily, my interest in practicing and competition has decreased somewhat.
I'm not saying it has to be like that for tauKhan as well, I just want to point out that the correlation between these skillsets is much lower than your post suggests.

Hmmm I agree with you to a certain extent, there is the art of play, the craft of play and the science behind the play, science being what you are interested in, craft being the actual sitting down and grinding out what you have to do to be well versed in the game executionally, and the art side being that creative spark in the decision making process of how you play your unique style. So while you say knowledge does not correlate, I agree, but there is a an indirect correlation from the science to art, which is the craft, and I am sure you can say you don't practice that craft as regularly.

Yeah, jab would be frame 7 out of AI.

And I don't think you would want to watch my gameplay rofl, esp Samus. I'm a bad fox main from finland, roughly top 10ish here. I'm only high tier in frame data and understanding mechanics, thanks to lurking here since 2005 and reading a lot of magus, strong bad and kadanos posts. I visit Samus boards mostly because you've been quite active recently compared to the other boards.

I've been improving lately though, but I don't think there's recent footage of me.

Haha, Kadano was faster, he's right. Though my interest in practicing / becoming better hasn't decreased yet. I'm just naturally scrub lol.

I like watching anyone's gameplay until i am able to understand each move they make and are able to predict when and why they make the decisions they do.

 

[tauKhan]

I like watching anyone's gameplay until i am able to understand each move they make and are able to predict when and why they make the decisions they do.

That's cool, sounds like a good way to improve, I should start analyzing more. I have to say though that you'd have to be genious to understand most of my decisions.

I was able to find 2 sets of my gameplay recorded in march. At least you can get a laugh, though you'll probably not learn much .
https://youtu.be/wRZoPoawR0w?t=5571
I'm the red fox.

@ Kadano , I'll get you though if we ever play again

 

[Mervis]

Does this mean Samus can use her aerials more aggressively? I'm assuming this is faster than shff correct?

 

[tauKhan]

No, the AI is a movement trick, you land during the autocancel window before the hitbox with samus's uair.

 

[Mervis]

No I meant on the way down after dropping from the platform. Is doing this faster than shorthopping into an aerial?

 

[JerkPhil]

Here are some cool stuff I recorded today:

 

[Litt]

pretty sure on that last one it would be better to just short hop nair isai drop nair than the AI

 

[JerkPhil]

The Bowser is supposed to represent a shielding opponent. I don't have 20XX, so this is pretty much the best I can do to simulate it. Sorry for the confusion.
Bomb does more shield damage, right? Also, isn't this faster than your suggestion? Shield drop is faster than Isai drop any way.
The Nair can be exchanged with Dair for even more pressure (though a later hit), and then finished with a Dsmash to break or poke the shield.

 

[JerkPhil]

Here are some more recordings:

 

[Litt]

The Bowser is supposed to represent a shielding opponent. I don't have 20XX, so this is pretty much the best I can do to simulate it. Sorry for the confusion.
Bomb does more shield damage, right? Also, isn't this faster than your suggestion? Shield drop is faster than Isai drop any way.
The Nair can be exchanged with Dair for even more pressure (though a later hit), and then finished with a Dsmash to break or poke the shield.

I mistyped, I meant nair off the bomb jump instead of landing then falling with a nair, the first nair will cancel on the plat and give you time to isai drop nair, just because of the situation id recommend this option over just the bomb to AI on the plat.

Also i just record my things off my iphone on my dolphin emulator on my computer lmao, no johns

 

[JerkPhil]

Bomb rising Nair only works on tall characters though.

I don't have a Gamecube controller converter, so I can't play Smash on my computer.

 

[Litt]

Bomb rising Nair only works on tall characters though.

I don't have a Gamecube controller converter, so I can't play Smash on my computer.

Wiiu smash 4 adapter works with the computer, even got it working on my mac no excuses Also for non tall characters its rare you actually want to be above them, especially after the bomb AI they are free to full hop nair OoS which most likely beats all samus's options

 

[JerkPhil]

Well then my excuse is I don't own a WiiU, so I don't have an adapter. I don't really play smash anymore, so I don't have a reason to buy an adapter either.

I think we can AI into shield faster than their OoS option either way, so it's a mix up.