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Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?
- Thread starter DoonKoon
- Start date
- Status
~Lady Luck~
Smash Cadet
If any pro were to make a dramatic change to the tier list, I'd like to see the use of Ganondorf.
But I'm sure many pros won't have the patience for such a thing, and more will laugh at the thought.
YesNoMaybeSo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 129
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
if I get to grand finals and it's M2K too. I will go Snake.
It's either Marth Falco or Wario in my mind.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Marth seems like a good 2nd but his MU vs snake and meta needs to advance more before I even consider that (marth does deserve S tier though)
Falco/Wario/Diddy would be my pick for 2nd
the way the metagame is it seems snake is 2nd but Falco/Wario/Diddy seem to be catching up on him
Falco/Wario/Diddy would be my pick for 2nd
the way the metagame is it seems snake is 2nd but Falco/Wario/Diddy seem to be catching up on him
CO18
Smash Hero
Alot of people dont know how to fight snake thats true but still snakes game is easier to read then diddy's and there are still WAY MORE people that dont know how to fight diddy imo.
I feel like both of them have quite a few mu's snake imo loses to DDD, marth ,Mk and possibly possibly Falco.
Diddy still loses to Mk,Snake, then prob wario/marth then some other random chars apparently like luigi and peach or w/e.
I do agree theres a decent gap between mk and the 2nd best char but I still think its probably snake.
RATED
Smash Lord
use Marth he's full of Win. 
Right now I feel like IC's are the only character that could be better than Snake. A character that "on paper" should take a stock with one grab has the potential to be broken. Luckily it's not easy to CG, and some characters can do a lot to avoid grabs, but IC's game without grabs still has the potential to be extremely sick if people would experiment more with Dysncs.
Diddy could be AS good as Snake, but Snake just gets too much reward for good reads. Snake is like a more risk more reward version of diddy. He does twice as much damage for the same read, and lives twice as long, but is a lot laggier. I haven't seen enough Data on what exactly DEHF is doing with Falco yet. Pound 4 willl show everyone. I can see something like this (on paper).
MK
ICs
Snake/Diddy/Falco
If IC's players were able to match the potential of their character, otherwise I think a 2/3 way tie for 2nd is possible.
CO18
Smash Hero
Dunno Ics are 2nd/3rd best on neutrals. But alot of chars have close to an auto win vs them with their CP so definitley not.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Snake isn't 2nd, and obviously not 1st. There is simply no reason for it. We've all seen ally doing amazing things with Snake and taking tourneys, yet we also see 7th and 9th place finishes, unlike Mk, who is never out of top 3, like ever (I think the last hobo was the only time i've ever seen this at a relevant tourney)
Also, before people dismiss falco, remember that DEHF has done amazing things with falco, and if someone can do it, someone else can as well, since it's within the characters potential, and DEHF and SK92 pour out results for him. He is clearly top 5, and a possible 2nd.
Diddy IMO is second. He has more options than every other character except ICs in theroy, and ICs don't apply all of their options usually. His options aren't off the wall busted though, unlike mk.
Another thing to point out is that once someone lears the snake MU, t becomes a lot easier, and snakes moveset doesn't allow for much adaptation, unlike diddy. He basically has an amazing but linear function.
Also, before people dismiss falco, remember that DEHF has done amazing things with falco, and if someone can do it, someone else can as well, since it's within the characters potential, and DEHF and SK92 pour out results for him. He is clearly top 5, and a possible 2nd.
Diddy IMO is second. He has more options than every other character except ICs in theroy, and ICs don't apply all of their options usually. His options aren't off the wall busted though, unlike mk.
Another thing to point out is that once someone lears the snake MU, t becomes a lot easier, and snakes moveset doesn't allow for much adaptation, unlike diddy. He basically has an amazing but linear function.
RATED
Smash Lord
srsly Marth as a character is pretty good and IMO he have the potential to be S tier the same with ICs. also they both have the same problem both even if they have a lot of stuff to do they can improve even more also I think that Marth vs MK is a kinda underdeveloped matchup even though I don't consider it 35-65 mk , maybe 40-60 MK and yeah a 5 is much.
if ICs keep improving they will get even against snake and beat DDD even more. also I think that DDD has the advantage against Snake.
also Wario if played right can get through Snake.
~Lady Luck~
Smash Cadet
Apparently any character can beat ANYONE if played right.
RATED
Smash Lord
LOL no , I can't see a Ganon beating DDD if both are played rightApparently any character can beat ANYONE if played right.
also I used the words " get through" I didn't used beat in that phrase
Prawn
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,031
just gotta win games 1 and 3 brothaaaah man
Same goes for every character... o_o
SZ2K
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2008
- Messages
- 22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzRwurdADc#t=0m43s
I'd like to see Ally go to Marth cause Marth's MU against MK is completely ridiculous. We need someone to crack the code cause MK is probably never getting banned, and it sucks that one character is making it so hard for Marth to be legitimate tourney-viable. It's seriously a **** matchup. Yes, it's possible to beat an MK with Marth, but you have to seriously be 10 steps ahead of them and leaps and bounds better than them skillwise to win. Join the fight Ally, JOIN THE FIGHT
I'd like to see Ally go to Marth cause Marth's MU against MK is completely ridiculous. We need someone to crack the code cause MK is probably never getting banned, and it sucks that one character is making it so hard for Marth to be legitimate tourney-viable. It's seriously a **** matchup. Yes, it's possible to beat an MK with Marth, but you have to seriously be 10 steps ahead of them and leaps and bounds better than them skillwise to win. Join the fight Ally, JOIN THE FIGHT
CO18
Smash Hero
Neo will **** any mk aside from m2k really.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
So being a top tier character isn't amazing despite ur representation not being the best compared to Ike's and Sonic's (early in the game)?
Player-1
Smash Legend
here's IMO diddy's matchups:
Diddy : other char
Bowser:60:40
Captain Falcon: 70:30
Diddy Kong: 50:50
Donkey Kong: 60:40, learning more towards 55:45
Falco: 45:55
Fox: 60:40
GaW:60:40
Ganondorf:70:30
Ice Climbers: 60:40 leaning more towards 55:45
Ike: 60:40
Jigglypuff:55:45
King Dedede: 50:50 leaning more towards 55:45
Kirby: 45:55
Link: 65:35
Lucario: 50:50, leaning more towards 45:55
Lucas: 60:40
Luigi: 40:60
Mario: 55:45
Marth:45:55 leaning more towards 60:40
Meta Knight: 45:55 leaning more towards 50:50
Ness: 60:40 leaning more towards 55:45
Olimar: 45:55
Peach: 40:60
Pikachu: 60:40
Pit: 45:55
Pokemon Trainer: 55:45
Squirtle: 45:55 leaning more towards 40:60
Ivysaur: 60:40 leaning more towards 65:35
Charizard: 55:45 leaning more towards 60:40
ROB: 55:45
Samus: 60:40
Sheik: 60:40
Snake: 45:55
Sonic: 55:45
Toon Link: 50:50
Wario: 45:55
Wolf: 55:45
Yoshi: 55:45
Zelda: 60:40
Zamus: 60:40
the leaning more towards stuff is...like...I could agree with that ratio and I see where it's coming from.
One of the biggest problems for Diddy, at least IMO, is that if he loses game 1 of a set then it could be over depending on the char you're facing. Now Diddy's recovery is great and all, but IF you do screw up then that's a stock. And, depending on the matchup, that could be the whole set if you screw up that recovery or SD or get read properly in the air. Diddy has horrible aerial speed which makes him more prone to being combod, SDing, being gimped. So that if that 1 tiny mistake gets you gimped then you have a good chance of losing the game and thus the set. Basically, you can't **** up with Diddy when playing with him. Now I know that can be said for most of the chars, but I just believe it applies more to diddy for reasons already said (not to mention Diddy's bad killing power, I don't remember what it was, but AZ came up with the average percent diddy does a match and how sding/being gimped affects it by such a large amount). I do think he's 3rd best char in the game though, once more people learn not to **** up then I think he could be 2nd best
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Just like every other character beneath MK on the tier list, Snake has glaring weaknesses. Enough to drop him from the #2 spot? Maybe.
I think Diddy is possibly #2. The only thing Snake has on him is weight and Uptilt. Diddy's overall moveset is superior and his recovery is more flexible. Diddy's matchups are probably better than people want to give him credit for.
Both characters are definitely worse than MK though.
I think a large reason why MK isn't in S-tier alone, is because of how influential Atlantic North is. Atlantic North rulesets ban, limit and frown upon the incredibly gay tactics that MK is capable of, effectively keeping his true potential under wraps. If MK's universally played as defensive as possible, while being allowed to plank and IDC to their heart's content, he would be unstoppable.
I think Diddy is possibly #2. The only thing Snake has on him is weight and Uptilt. Diddy's overall moveset is superior and his recovery is more flexible. Diddy's matchups are probably better than people want to give him credit for.
Both characters are definitely worse than MK though.
I think a large reason why MK isn't in S-tier alone, is because of how influential Atlantic North is. Atlantic North rulesets ban, limit and frown upon the incredibly gay tactics that MK is capable of, effectively keeping his true potential under wraps. If MK's universally played as defensive as possible, while being allowed to plank and IDC to their heart's content, he would be unstoppable.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
prOAPC
Smash Lord
lol Ally is so wrong
smashkng
Smash Lord
Do you mean 60/40 Marth or Diddy?
I'd like to see Ally play Marth. I think Marth is incredibly underrated. He hardly has any representation, yet he definitely has the potential to be one of the top 5 if not 3 characters in the game. I'd be very interested to see what Ally's capable of with Marth.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
It's hard to say that any character other than MK is better than Snake when he has ALWAYS had second representation.
I mean I could imagine Diddy, Falco, and ICs having potential to get above Snake ONE DAY. But right now I don't see any reason for him to drop. Diddy probably has the potential to get better, but at this point that really needs to be PROVEN.
I mean I could imagine Diddy, Falco, and ICs having potential to get above Snake ONE DAY. But right now I don't see any reason for him to drop. Diddy probably has the potential to get better, but at this point that really needs to be PROVEN.
Falco have a lot of problems due to his low killing potential and some ****ty match up (Ice climbers, Pikachu to any one?).So being a top tier character isn't amazing despite ur representation not being the best compared to Ike's and Sonic's (early in the game)?
I'm not saying the character isn't good but is not at the same lavel of Snake, Diddy or maybe ICs.
The thing is that Falco is supposed basically sit on one side of the stage and shoot lasers regardless of percent apparently. No character can really approach him without taking at least a small risk. Personally I dont think Falco is by any means better than Snake beause his bad kills moves, and he gets chaingrabbed by a lot of characters.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Falco has low killing power, but what's worse is that they are hard to land unlike Diddy, MK, Snake, Wario and other top tiers. And he's tall for his lightweight and his recovery is not awful (except up b), but not very good either. IMO he's not top 3, as he has bad matchups, Wario and Diddy have no bad matchups.
I agree with all you said.
Landing an Usmash is pretty hard. Some Falco in my country usually use Usmash oos to kill the opponent but is not that effective if their attacks are well spaced.
Sorry for my bad english I hope you guys understand what I mean =/
KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
When you say bad, you mean like 65-35+ right?
Affinity
Smash Hero
MK vs Snake is just getting worse and worse for Snake.
Diddy's 2nd imo.
Diddy's 2nd imo.
Marth and G&W imo are the only A tier characters i can see their flaws clearly. Im not trying to start **** but neither are 2nd place, If not snake in second wario is pretty **** beast in the air. but imo Snake is 2nd and not just because ally listens to his own hype.
Diddy is not number 2. Geez. The character probably shouldn't even be 3 or 4. Tons of match ups where MK/Snake/Wario/Marth/D3/Ice Climbers/etc CRUSH give Diddy difficulty.
If the logic "well if Ally didn't give Snake rep" is applied to Diddy, and so ADHD doesn't count, you would reach the same conclusion. Diddy's rankings in Ankoku's rankings are basically a result of ADHD + Gnes + Me + Fliphop going to tournaments and consistently getting top 8/top 3/1st. Take any one of us out of the equation and Diddy would likely drop an entire position in Ankoku's rankings. Take us 4 out of the rankings and Diddy would drop to about 20th (just 4 people!). There are not a plethora of Diddy Kong players out there getting top 8 consistently (unlike Snake and MK).
Diddy takes forever to get good with and in the end an entire match of work can be undone in an instant because the recovery is so gimpable. You have to play perfect with Diddy, where as with Snake/MK you have tons of room for error.
Snake is the 2nd best...I can't even believe this is a debate.
If the logic "well if Ally didn't give Snake rep" is applied to Diddy, and so ADHD doesn't count, you would reach the same conclusion. Diddy's rankings in Ankoku's rankings are basically a result of ADHD + Gnes + Me + Fliphop going to tournaments and consistently getting top 8/top 3/1st. Take any one of us out of the equation and Diddy would likely drop an entire position in Ankoku's rankings. Take us 4 out of the rankings and Diddy would drop to about 20th (just 4 people!). There are not a plethora of Diddy Kong players out there getting top 8 consistently (unlike Snake and MK).
Diddy takes forever to get good with and in the end an entire match of work can be undone in an instant because the recovery is so gimpable. You have to play perfect with Diddy, where as with Snake/MK you have tons of room for error.
Snake is the 2nd best...I can't even believe this is a debate.
RATED
Smash Lord
maybe is getting worse or maybe is that MK mainer realized that almost every attack if perfect spaced they use is a good option and their tracendant priority makes it hard for snake when MK is where snake couldn't camp well but outside Snake Ftilt.
but even though that MU is even.- Status