Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[Pierce7d]

MK playing as gay as possible > Diddy playing as gay as possible.

MK playing pretty gay, but not able to plank/scrooge/kill children >= Diddy playing as gay as possible.

MK not playing gay <= Diddy playing as gay as possible.

False. Due to Diddy having projectiles, it is entirely possible for Diddy to secure the lead and maintain it through the whole match. It is also more difficult for MK to land, because banana's trip you if you land and limit your options once in your hand.

 

[etecoon]

MK playing as gay as possible > Diddy playing as gay as possible.

MK playing pretty gay, but not able to plank/scrooge/kill children >= Diddy playing as gay as possible.

MK not playing gay <= Diddy playing as gay as possible.

I believe MK is better/has the advantage, but being gay is situational, if MK is down a significant amount, he can't be *that* gay. if diddy has a stock lead and MK just runs away constantly, he can't bring it back that way, diddy will be more than happy to do chip damage over long periods of time in that situation. likewise if MK has a large lead diddy can't really make him do anything

MU is 60:40 whoever wins the opening moments of the game lol

 

[DMG]

MK could... try to catch a banana before he lands. The time frame you are completely vulnerable in the air, unable to catch a banana while landing, is extremely small. Honestly, that window might be non existent depending on how far Diddy's Banana can travel per frame, and how big of a "item grab range" the character has.

Now, it might be hard for the MK player to react quick enough, but at the same time Banana toss is fairly slow (much slower than people reported it as). If Diddy is in his shield with a banana in his hand, seeing his shield drop gives you a hint that you probably need to press Z sometime soon.

I also think that overall, MK can outgay Diddy harder than Diddy can outgay MK. Diddy's tools to "play gay" against people are projectiles. Dynamic projectiles, however, that can be used against him. There's little you can do to make what MK does work against him. Platform camping on Smashville, Gliding under stages, Scrooging, Planking, etc. Sure, you can try to work around these things, but you cannot grab his sword and hold onto it/throw it back at him/neutralize the threat.

As for playing gay, I used those comparisons to explain how the matchup looks differently based on what the MK is allowed to do. If he is allowed to plank non stop/no quarrels at all, then it's obvious Diddy doesn't win. You would be hard pressed to argue for a character beating MK when he's allowed to go M2K on Meep/Gnes playing gay status full blown. Not Snake, Not Diddy, not anyone. If even 1-2 of those other characters could beat MK with planking/all sorts of gay stuff allowed fully, then there would be no need to ban planking, which I see that a lot of people who think Diddy/Snake/etc beat MK also want planking banned (Prime example: Inui. I don't know how Pierce feels about planking). If planking were to be banned/heavily limited, then it's obvious that MK would not win in certain matchups, at least not as hard as he can/does now.

However, let's say that MK is the best, and we decide to ban planking. All of a sudden, IC's/Snake/Diddy beat him. He is removed from the #1 spot because of this.

At this point, you would have to analyze whether we went too far with our rule against planking. Our goal is to remove things that are just downright nasty. When achieving that goal however, we don't want to make a character suddenly drop spots because of it.

I'll just go on a train of thought here: If you want planking banned, then you also have to believe MK is the best character in the game. If you think planking needs to be banned, while MK is the second-3rd best in the game, then you are basically saying that you believe that the second best character has a game breaking tactic, and that the best character is SO good that they are even more broken than that game breaking tactic (otherwise, they would lose to it correct?). So if you think planking needs to go, but that MK isn't even the best in the game with it allowed, then your stance should also reflect that you want the character above him completely removed from the game. Otherwise, you just look like a huge hypocrite wanting something for the second best character to be removed, with the best character being untouched. This means you cannot argue that Snake/Diddy is the best character in the game, while also wanting planking to be banned/limited/removed.

Furthermore, if people truly believe that there is a character above MK, why haven't we thought about discussing whether this character needs to be banned or not? MK has gone through countless ban discussions throughout the lifespan of Brawl. If, this late after the game has been introduced, we really think someone is better than that, why hasn't that character come under fire?

Snake has, by a few people, even though it's kinda obvious he isn't the best character in the game, and that he has enough bad or "trouble" matchups to keep his matchup spread down.

Falco, while being really good, clearly isn't the best with planking allowed, and with people allowed to play as gay as possible against him.

Diddy, also while being really good, is kinda like Snake. He has a lot of bad or trouble matchups, certainly more than MK at least.

IC's... don't even get me started with how CP stages alone warrant that they are not the best in the game.

I think the character with the best case for being the best is MK. His "supposed" bad matchups aren't even validated. Peach being trouble for Diddy... well just look at Kosmos vs x Diddy player countless times lol. Like there's a lot more evidence out there that characters can be trouble for Snake/Diddy/some character, than for MK.

 

[etecoon]

I also think that overall, MK can outgay Diddy harder than Diddy can outgay MK. Diddy's tools to "play gay" against people are projectiles. Dynamic projectiles, however, that can be used against him. There's little you can do to make what MK does work against him. Platform camping on Smashville, Gliding under stages, Scrooging, Planking, etc. Sure, you can try to work around these things, but you cannot grab his sword and hold onto it/throw it back at him/neutralize the threat.

this is true, but as I said, these things are completely dependent on MK having a lead. preferably a decent one too, a 3-10% lead could be pretty easily lost over the course of a few minutes if you're making no attempt to actually fight. I see this as being pretty even/advantage to whoever is leading because neither character can safely approach the other at all, whoever has the ability(time on their side) to say "I'm not gonna approach you" has the upper hand.

overall MU advantage to MK though because diddy can be CP'd way worse IMO, the above paragraph I'm only talking about neutrals/diddy's counterpick(neutrals)

 

[Pierce7d]

This is why I think it's Diddy's favor. Diddy can use projectiles to gain or gain the lead and items lock off MK's options. At 0% game starts so long as Diddy doesn't start above MK, he's at advantage. He easily breaks MKs walls with bananas, and MK can't easily break Diddy's banana wall. Diddy also lands more damage than MK per hit or combo string more easily. MK has better kill moves (Dsmash, UpB) but Diddy has more guaranteed kill set-ups (and Fair, lol).

Diddy has better tools to gain the lead, hold the ledge, increase the lead, and gain the kill. He's not unstoppable (YET!) but he has better tools in the head to head MU, and therefore I believe on most neutrals if not all, Diddy has the advantage. I think on some counterpicks, MK can win, as displayed with M2k on Delfino. He does well when he can approach Diddy from below the stage on Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar, etc. He definitely wins on Brinstar. These stages give MK bonus to his flight, and enable him to approach at better angles with more options. However, since the set STARTS on a neutral stage, Diddy has the advantage. By the current ruleset, Diddy wins.

And Diddy can approach MK fairly well if he's got a banana. He'll have two if MK is making no attempt to approach him. Diddy with TWO bananas is definitely better than MK.

Also, DMG, it's possible to limit landing zones with the use of two bananas on the ground, and the peanut popgun, which might I remind you, is cancel-able.

 

[DMG]

Alright then, let's ban Diddy.

If we ALMOST banned MK numerous times, I see no reason Diddy should be put on the back burner.

 

[Pierce7d]

There are a couple reasons I haven't yet petitioned to ban Diddy.

A) He beats MK, but MK still seemingly has stronger MUs on the rest of the cast, and can fight Diddy.
B) Other characters can seemingly fight Diddy.
C) I'm biased as hell for ADHD.

 

[DMG]

Basically Pierce, what I am saying is that the sheer odds that this late in Brawl, that there is a character who not only beats MK/handles all of his gayness, but has a good enough matchup spread to be considered better than MK, while also being strong on vast CP stages, etc. The odds of this occurring is genuinely low.

Basically, the odds of us earlier "missing" his potential to prove that he is better than an arguably ban worthy character... seems small. I'm not saying that this isn't the case, and you have some good arguments to suggest that this has happened/will happened, but at the same time that idea is so unlikely to be true just odds wise that it's hard not to dismiss it based on that.

 

[GreenFox]

Well isn't this the second time ADHD has beat M2K at a major tournament? that is the best MK vs the best Diddy from what I can tell diddy can beat MK and still had good matchups on the rest of the cast if hes not the best he's atleast the second best.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

even if its the best MK vs the best diddy it might not be the best mk at that match up vs the best diddy or even the best MK at 100% vs the best diddy at 100%

M2K said that adhd was having a great day while m2k was having a bad day at snes. Then ADHD said that he felt M2K was playing better the week before pound too and that he him self was playing better that day than the week before.

 

[wowoduend]

So theres Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy......who else? Wario and Falco?

 

[Tin Man]

even if its the best MK vs the best diddy it might not be the best mk at that match up vs the best diddy or even the best MK at 100% vs the best diddy at 100%

M2K said that adhd was having a great day while m2k was having a bad day at snes. Then ADHD said that he felt M2K was playing better the week before pound too and that he him self was playing better that day than the week before.

probably because ADHD sandbagged the week before

 

[Kewkky]

I hate sandbag johns.

4th best in the game? Hummz... I have no idea, but probably gonna be one of the current top 6. I'd like to see some more Wario reppin' before I can mention his name though, I know that in the past Wario has been a definite top character, but there were practically no Warios at Pound4 so I couldn't see a pro live... Gonna have to go all theory on this one I guess.

#4 will eventually be known as Falco, Wario or (a big stretch) Marth.

 

[Pierce7d]

probably because ADHD sandbagged the week before

THIS!!!

He ***** M2k, then sees Pound coming up and is like, "Oh noez, M2k is desperately trying to memorize me, better make sure that doesn't happen before I win over 1000 dollars at a National Tourney!" Sandbags (probably split too), takes second at a local, and then DESTROYS him at Pound when it counts.

I haven't confirmed this with ADHD, but I really think this is what went down.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pikachu is the 2nd best character in the game
































































'nuff said.

 

[DMG]

I think it's funny that whenever someone even mentions the possibility of M2K sandbagging, that people take that as an insult of M2K/his skills/something else. But when someone says ADHD/other top player sandbagged, that it's viewed as a smart move.

 

[OverLade]

With no offense to Pierce, saying someone lost because they were sandbagging is usually just hardcore meatriding.

I think it's most likely that ADHD just wasn't on his A game, or that M2K wasn't on his A game at Pound. Either way In brawl I honestly don't think many people at all sandbag in tourney...

 

[Mew2King]

diddy and mk are better than snake so is falco. ICs are around snakes level idk who's better probably snake right now I'd say 4th right now.

 

[<π]

M2K what you just said sounds a list of MK's match ups hardest to easiest.

Diddy is cool he is not as good as people are making him out to be.

 

[CaliburChamp]

diddy and mk are better than snake so is falco. ICs are around snakes level idk who's better probably snake right now I'd say 4th right now.

I'd like to hear you go in depth more about why you think Snake is worse than Diddy, and Falco. I'd say there's no chance Falco can be better than Snake, his recovery is very punishable, and he get's combo worse than Snake. Snake can grenade to break out of most combos, Falco is only mediocre in killing , while Snake has a KO move on almost everyone of his attacks.

 

[Mew2King]

i disagree i think my list is just a list of how good the characters are overall with tourney results backing it up and my own opinion

edit - snake is more limited than them. Falco's camping is broken and Diddy is just super great overall

 

[Turbo Ether]

M2K what you just said sounds a list of MK's match ups hardest to easiest.

I was thinking the same thing >_>

 

[OverLade]

i disagree i think my list is just a list of how good the characters are overall with tourney results backing it up and my own opinion

edit - snake is more limited than them. Falco's camping is broken and Diddy is just super great overall

How is Falco's camping broken? It's good but I dont see how it's broken...

 

[XvCvX]

In meta game I'd say Diddy is better than snake, Snake is decently gimp able. Diddy has more less gimp able recovery for a few reasons, with timing people can power shield grab snake out of any F tilt. When knocked of the stage snake will have to cause himself (on avarage) 25% to get back without being punished hard. Snake's damage out put is amazing in almost every way and every move but his up B kill over 170%... But Diddy defiantly has some nasty stuff that he can do... Such as banana (opponent shields of course) grab or U tilt depending on what the opponent does...

 

[XvCvX]

In meta game I'd say Diddy is better than snake, Snake is decently gimp able. Diddy has more less gimp able recovery for a few reasons, with timing people can power shield grab snake out of any F tilt. When knocked of the stage snake will have to cause himself (on average) 25% to get back without being punished hard. Snake's damage out put is amazing in almost every way and every move but his up B kill over 170%... But Diddy defiantly has some nasty stuff that he can do... Such as banana (opponent shields of course) grab or U tilt depending on what the opponent does...

 

[XvCvX]

How is Falco's camping broken? It's good but I dont see how it's broken...

Because most people have to take at least one laser to approach. Then the Falco can use one of many ways yo escape...

 

[X-FACTOR]

diddy and mk are better than snake so is falco. ICs are around snakes level idk who's better probably snake right now I'd say 4th right now.

IC around snake level!? I'm curious now!

IC are good, but top 5 good, IDK......

 

[Tin Man]

Falcos camping isnt brocken, they are fast fine, but they can be power sheilded, and falcos laser isnt the best projectile in the game, snakes nades are 2nd best, and diddy's naners are the best.

Warios havent been showing much results lately, and Mike haze was impressive with marth last year, as for recent results, with the exception of pound 4, CO18 wrecked with DDD,

MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, D3, Wario, Marth, Ice climbers, Olimar

Top 9 in that order

 

[Gnes]

Diddy is just super great overall

U poor soul

 

[<π]

Diddy has huge weaknesses please take advantage of them.

 

[tocador]

Diddy has huge weaknesses please take advantage of them.

No, we refuse to actually learn a counterpick agaisnt diddy!!!!!!!!!!

I mean, its so much better to just to MK/Falco/Snake than cping a luigi/peach agaisnt diddy!!!

People are dumb, no ofense.

 

[etecoon]

No, we refuse to actually learn a counterpick agaisnt diddy!!!!!!!!!!

I mean, its so much better to just to MK/Falco/Snake than cping a luigi/peach agaisnt diddy!!!

People are dumb, no ofense.

this requires that you secondary those characters, if you don't play luigi/peach frequently you're just going to get stomped for using them. in general most top players don't constantly CP characters for a reason, a better MU isn't always worth getting off your main for

 

[<π]

learn the match up From the sounds of it Ally can beat ADHD pretty consistently?

His weakness is he is average at best without bananas. aerials (for the most part), have significant start up and rediculous cooldowns, his ground attacks are the same exluding a few. Diddy has huge problems racking damage and killing without bananas handy.

His recovery is pretty simple too.

 

[PieDisliker]

Falcos camping isnt brocken, they are fast fine, but they can be power sheilded, and falcos laser isnt the best projectile in the game, snakes nades are 2nd best, and diddy's naners are the best.

Warios havent been showing much results lately, and Mike haze was impressive with marth last year, as for recent results, with the exception of pound 4, CO18 wrecked with DDD,

MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, D3, Wario, Marth, Ice climbers, Olimar

Top 9 in that order

How can Wario be lower than D3, when D3 gets ***** in some matchups and Wario doesn't even need a secondary to get around.

D3 needs a secondary unless they're REALLY good against Icy's, Falco, and Pika.

 

[DarkISDA]

How can Wario be lower than D3, when D3 gets ***** in some matchups and Wario doesn't even need a secondary to get around.

D3 needs a secondary unless they're REALLY good against Icy's, Falco, and Pika.

Agreed, D3 should be just under Marth.

 

[Tin Man]

How can Wario be lower than D3, when D3 gets ***** in some matchups and Wario doesn't even need a secondary to get around.

D3 needs a secondary unless they're REALLY good against Icy's, Falco, and Pika.

Agreed, D3 should be just under Marth.

MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, D3, Wario, Marth, Ice climbers, Olimar

Top 9 in that order

very well then, with this in mind, D3 should be in between marth and wario. ISDA, u never actually gave a reason to put D3 under marth, the matchups that D3 gets ***** in are pretty legit, but D3 has chaingrab, can kill way earlier the marth, lives longer, has projectile, more range, a suicide move, better grab range, better character. Marth's only problem matchups are MK, D3 himself, and snake, everyone can be fought without a secondary (even the problem matchups can be fought) however DDD has 2 many things going for him that marth doesnt.

aside from matchups, wario also kills well, has an easier time getting on stage, lives rediculously long as well, ***** sheilds, is faster than DDD, more aproach options than DDD, yeah... better character indeed

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

His weakness is he is average at best without bananas. aerials (for the most part), have significant start up and rediculous cooldowns, his ground attacks are the same exluding a few. Diddy has huge problems racking damage and killing without bananas handy.

That's not really the point. That's like rating ICs based on their gameplay without the CGs. If diddy's not using banana's, he's really not playing smart.

If diddy gets a hold of one of his banana's, all he has to do is run, pull out a second banana so it lands between you and just pop-gun camp from there. If the diddy does it right, its ridiculous to punish if you don't have a projectile. That's the problem M2K has with diddy, anyway. And that's only one aspect of his banana game

 

[Gnes]

That's not really the point. That's like rating ICs based on their gameplay without the CGs. If diddy's not using banana's, he's really not playing smart.

If diddy gets a hold of one of his banana's, all he has to do is run, pull out a second banana so it lands between you and just pop-gun camp from there. If the diddy does it right, its ridiculous to punish if you don't have a projectile. That's the problem M2K has with diddy, anyway. And that's only one aspect of his banana game

MK runs faster than diddy...true story.

 

[Overswarm]

MK runs faster than diddy...true story.

MK's walk is almost faster than Diddy's run.

 

[wowoduend]

MK's walk is almost faster than Diddy's run.

Diddy is more annoying then MK.