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Alright, time to become very unpopular in this board (About all this combo talk...).

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Here's the deal.

As a Lucario main, I'm kind of disappointed that nearly all of the talk that goes on here revolves around loose and highly situational attack strings quite unlikely to work consistently on good opponents. I mean, no offense, although I care extremely little if anyone does take offense, but some of the ones people here have heralded as legit seem more like petty attempts to gain some e-fame rather than statements of facts.

It's way more productive to talk about all attributes of Lucario's arsenal that enable him to control opponents and set himself in a position to perhaps pull off an attack string. I see very little talk of things like Lucario's main pressure-applying tool, which is SH fair to retreating nair or fair (followed by ftilt, dtilt, jab, AS, fsmash on landing), which is a GREAT maneuver that allows you the ability to basically create a wall of hitboxes with which to push an enemy back or otherwise force them to action. Basically, a tool that will actually help Lucario players develop a safe, effective play style, unlike systematic memorization of "combos". I've played too many people that completely omit the fact that they actually have to put you in a position to be combo'd before they can actually combo you. These instances are hilarious because I've played a couple of T. Links that try to go for some bair strings, who keep doing bairs at the air after I DI'd the first one! It's this focus on futile flashiness that keeps people from getting better, since practicing combo strings on motionless opponents in training mode is admittedly more entertaining to most than figuring out how to deal with character matchups and stage aspects with the tools possessed by any given character.

Look, I know Lucario can pull off long attack strings, with probably the fastest fair and utilt in the game and plenty of follow up options, that is hell of easy to see. I have pulled off some 8 or more hit strings and looked like a **** Mongol army pimp while at it. I know they're possible, but they're just attack strings, they don't really need 20 threads' worth of discussion. Instead, why not focus discussion on aspects of his gameplay not so easily seen? Everyone talks about how good Lucario is at zoning, with long-ranged disjointed (and lingering) hitboxes that have amazing priority and relatively great speed, but no one talks about actual applications. It's much more than just keeping an optimal distance between you and the opponent; it's about that and keeping options available for as many outcomes as possible, and covering as much space as you can so the opponent feels pressured, thus increasing the likelihood of rash decisions. Yet, I digress.

This thread will probably not change anyone's mind on the subject, and if my prediction in the thread title is accurate, it will incur some ire. What I'm saying is true though, and I believe that less discussion of so-called combos will lead to more productive assessments of Lucario's true worth as a competitive character, as well as much more interesting topics of discussion. Waka waka.
 

Browny

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come on... thats a bit harsh. the games only been out for a short while and were still figuring out what hes capable of. its not like the marth/fox boards, where everyone already knows every single tactic.

the A-A-force palm x 3-dthrow- fair/uair combo owns... no matter how good your opponent is once that first jab gets off, theres no escape. how many other characters have a combo (a REAL combo) that deep this early in the games life.

maybe in a few months when everyone knows and masters these new and very fancy tricks then you can worry about the highly technical stuff.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
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Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
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Isabela, PR
I don't think I'm being harsh.

That combo you mentioned may be ok and decent enough to pull off with some consistency, but think of how situational it is. You can only pull it off when both you and your opponent are at very low damages, which means that a) you will only be able to go for it in this precise circumstance, so b) the opponent will know when to watch out for it, and a good one will c) bait you into trying it and punish. Do you see where I'm going here? It's exactly the point I'm trying to make. With a new game, you work from the ground up. Learn the basics of the character, which moves are safe, which have disjointed hitboxes, which can be spammed, which are good for pressure, which allow you to control space effectively, etc. Then work on applying those; how one uses those moves in conjunction with things like short hops or full jumps to maximize their effectiveness, what is the most effective way to keep safe hitboxes out for the longest amount of time, etc. Then you play using that knowledge, and through experience you learn what attack strings work and where, and how to lead into them.

Also, I hardly think people in the Marth/Fox boards, or any others for that matter, have already discovered every single tactic, or any number of tactics even remotely nearing that amount.
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
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Dec 6, 2007
Messages
798
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Northern California
Great post.... You've just summarized exacly what I've been thinking for a while now. I mean, there are at least 5 threads dedicated to unreliable combos, including "the Stupid combo".

If anyone gives you any flak for this thread...For shame!
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
2,625
Location
Tennessee
Argh, been waiting all day to reply to this topic. Saw it right before I had to go to work!


Pope is correct.

I very rarely get off a jab combo anymore, let alone jab to force palm because of how i'm spaced. My utilt is reserved for people behind me and for rollers and just... etcetera.

I move that we push the "Super Awesome Combo" talk aside and focus more on Very Real Scenarios and how Lucario's many abilities and moves help him out. Focusing on Canned Combos stagnates your game play into just biding time until you can get your attack off, which DI may just say stfu to, anyway. What we need to do is think more proactively and consider things that work in all situations, instead of a select few.

For instance, I have a neat little trick that'll make your dair hit every time, which i'll make known on the morrow for Inner Fire 5.

Which, by the way, Inner Fire 5 is all about combos. Not just your long attack strings. Practical, useful combinations of moves that you can apply at any distance and at any percentage. Hopefully we can start moving the board in the right direction: Progress.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I don't know what YOU'RE doing wrong, but I personally have no problem getting off jab jab force palm or jab jab running grab combos at just about any % for both me or the opponent. The latter works better against people at higher % while the former works very well at the beginning of the stock.

And I spent a good amount of time with a human opponent testing out various DI situations too.

Lucario is one of the few characters who does have combos that aren't nearly as situational as ones belonging to other characters. Fair out of a shield to footstool jump to Dair works against most characters as long as they're under 80% WITH DI. That's hardly situational.

It's perfectly reasonable that people glorify Lucario's combo ability, because it's one of the things that makes him really stand out in a game that is almost devoid of combos. I agree that we should be spending more time looking at his hitboxes and frame data, but come on now, he can chain throw Snake at the start of a stock from 0% to 80-90 WITH DI just using nothing more but force palms and a running grab!

jab jab side B or jab jab running grab are very reliable combos that work at any % and I don't know why you decided to use those as an example when you were talking about situational combos. If I were to make an example on situational combos, I would use Fair Fair footstool jump or Fair Dair (which can be thwarted by DI). Or even running attack to up tilt, which only works if you knick them with the very end of Lucario's foot and leaves you open if you misjudge.

Having said that, Lucario doesn't have the best true combo ability in the game. That award goes to Fox, the Ice Climbers, and Zero Suit Samus.

Fox's drill kick has several combos that can be done depending on %, one of them even leads up into a KO as early as 100% and the others just do horriffic damage for something so fast and safe. Compared to Fox, Lucario's only advantage is that he can chain throw some characters early on in a match, and Fox can't.

The Ice Climbers have more infinates that you can shake a home run bat at. And I mean REAL infinates that take you from 0% to a KO.

ZSS's down smash has a lot of combo potential. You can chain two of them in a row before footstool jumping the opponent into the ground and hitting them with a Dair. At higher % you can even lead into her side B for a KO.

So yes, I think it's perfectly justified that people gloat over what true combos Lucario actually has, because he has one of the coolest jabs in the game. One that actually has enough stun and small enough lag to combo into his grabbing attacks.

And a chain throw.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
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I didn't use THAT as an example of situational, I used the combo that the guy who replied first mentioned. Jab-jab-grab/FB is not the kind of thing I'm talking about, those are sufficiently reliable mixups that should be learned by players.

What I am talking about however, is this glorification of far fetched and highly situational combos/chain grabs that, while good to keep in mind, offer no real advantage if one just focuses on getting them off without concern for the more important aspects of gameplay (I never mentioned frame data btw, by "more important aspects" I basically mean those things which you can learn to apply to force opponents into positions in which a punish can lead to a combo). I feel the glorification of situational combos in these boards is needless and contributes to an inadequate understanding of what it takes to play well and win.

The chain grab on Snake that you mentioned, for instance, actually is quite situational, when you consider that, unlike other chain grabs, not only do you have to watch the opponent's %, but your own as well, since Aura's enhancement of knockback makes you unable to do this chain grab.

I get it, it's good to know these things, because you will inevitably be in a position where you can use them. But come on, are they really more important than discussing when and when not to use fsmash, out of shield options in various scenarios, the many uses of ftilt, or baby aura sphere spamming patterns in accordance with whomever the opponent is? I don't think so at least, but no one is stopping you or anyone from disagreeing. I just think it's a shallow, counter-productive way to go about uncovering Lucario's potential and limits.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I didn't use THAT as an example of situational, I used the combo that the guy who replied first mentioned. Jab-jab-grab/FB is not the kind of thing I'm talking about, those are sufficiently reliable mixups that should be learned by players.

What I am talking about however, is this glorification of far fetched and highly situational combos/chain grabs that, while good to keep in mind, offer no real advantage if one just focuses on getting them off without concern for the more important aspects of gameplay (I never mentioned frame data btw, by "more important aspects" I basically mean those things which you can learn to apply to force opponents into positions in which a punish can lead to a combo). I feel the glorification of situational combos in these boards is needless and contributes to an inadequate understanding of what it takes to play well and win.

The chain grab on Snake that you mentioned, for instance, actually is quite situational, when you consider that, unlike other chain grabs, not only do you have to watch the opponent's %, but your own as well, since Aura's enhancement of knockback makes you unable to do this chain grab.

I get it, it's good to know these things, because you will inevitably be in a position where you can use them. But come on, are they really more important than discussing when and when not to use fsmash, out of shield options in various scenarios, the many uses of ftilt, or baby aura sphere spamming patterns in accordance with whomever the opponent is? I don't think so at least, but no one is stopping you or anyone from disagreeing. I just think it's a shallow, counter-productive way to go about uncovering Lucario's potential and limits.
Well the fact is, you just started a fresh match with Snake, and you know that until your % is above 50%, you are capable of getting a free 90% off your opponent if you can land so much as a simple jab. It's really not that hard or situational to get such a fast move in as your first attack.

What's more, you don't have to START the chain grab at 0% either. Any time Snake is below 90% and you are below 50%, you'll be able to do it until you reach the limit. And within that time, I'm SURE you'd be able to land a jab or force palm while just playing normally.

If you don't take these things into consideration at all, you lose out on having a major advantage over that particular character. I've seen plenty of Lucario players who have opportunities to use combos but have preferred to play it safe and retreat after the initial hit.

It's not so much that people will be sacrificing their games entirely just to devote to these combos, but more just the fact that Lucario can actually do them in the first place that makes him really stand out. I'm sure the Ken combo was treated the same way when it was first discovered in Melee. I bet there was lots of people saying "stop focusing on this flashy technique and just play smartly." Yet when someone could do it effectively and incorporate it into their game...

I agree that we should be talking about general tactics more, but every character in the game has general tactics and camping tricks. Lucario is one of the few who are gifted with real combos.
 

Captain Stupid

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Mar 28, 2008
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Palmdale
Great post.... You've just summarized exacly what I've been thinking for a while now. I mean, there are at least 5 threads dedicated to unreliable combos, including "the Stupid combo".

If anyone gives you any flak for this thread...For shame!
Dont be talking s**t about "the stupid combo". I was simply putting on the boards to help the swarm of noobs that visit this site constanly. I wasnt telling you "hey do this" or "if you do this youll own" no i didnt. I dont call the combo that i use highly situational like you guys are saying it is. I know on who and when to do it on. Ive done it to many many people so you cant say that they DI'd wrong or what ever your come back will be. And if you do say the people i did it on suck cause i got this highly situational combo on them i dare you to tell them that. Search up ROFL and tell him Creepy Fingers and all his other crew members suck cause i got the combo off on him. If you think this combo is situational how about the "Ken combo" with marth in melee and in kinda brawl. If you dont like talking about all this situational combos then why even start a thread about it? And if you cant even do a simple A+A+>B then you shouldnt be maining lucario. I get all these "highly situational" combos of on all ALLL sorts of people maybe you just cant do them. Ever thought of that. All and all thats how i feel about this topic. Im going to go play some brawl and do the combos you and the others who agree with you like the person who started this dumb thread, that you guys (except NESSBOUNDER) cant do.
:)
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
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Dec 6, 2007
Messages
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I don't mean to offend you, and I'm not trying to ****-talk, but I would not consider this a combo. You're saying that f-throwing off the stage to sh>double fair>jump>double fair isn't situational? First of all, you have to be at 0%, and your opponent has to be, on average, at 50%. Not only that, but it doesn't work on 23 of the characters. THAT, my friend, IS situational.

And I wasn't talking about the "Super Awesome Combo", which works relatively well.

The point of this thread is that we should be focusing more on actual strategies, instead of "combos".

Oh, and the Ken combo actually worked...
 

rayecho

Smash Ace
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Feb 21, 2007
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I don't think you will find set combos in this game because air dodging is stupid easy. Instead combos are now done by pressuring your opponent into doing things that you want them to do. Like being aggressive and forcing them into their shield for a grab. I personally think that threads that are dedicated to combos are really stupid since they might only work once or not at all. In the end, Pope is right and i want to thank you for making this thread.

Now everyone check out my awesome Sig. =)
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Dec 19, 2002
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I don't think you will find set combos in this game because air dodging is stupid easy. Instead combos are now done by pressuring your opponent into doing things that you want them to do. Like being aggressive and forcing them into their shield for a grab. I personally think that threads that are dedicated to combos are really stupid since they might only work once or not at all. In the end, Pope is right and i want to thank you for making this thread.

Now everyone check out my awesome Sig. =)
My sig is better. It moves.

Also, real combos do exist in Brawl, they are just very rare and limited to a certain few characters. And Lucario is one of them.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
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Well the fact is, you just started a fresh match with Snake, and you know that until your % is above 50%, you are capable of getting a free 90% off your opponent if you can land so much as a simple jab. It's really not that hard or situational to get such a fast move in as your first attack.

What's more, you don't have to START the chain grab at 0% either. Any time Snake is below 90% and you are below 50%, you'll be able to do it until you reach the limit. And within that time, I'm SURE you'd be able to land a jab or force palm while just playing normally.

If you don't take these things into consideration at all, you lose out on having a major advantage over that particular character. I've seen plenty of Lucario players who have opportunities to use combos but have preferred to play it safe and retreat after the initial hit.

It's not so much that people will be sacrificing their games entirely just to devote to these combos, but more just the fact that Lucario can actually do them in the first place that makes him really stand out. I'm sure the Ken combo was treated the same way when it was first discovered in Melee. I bet there was lots of people saying "stop focusing on this fla****echnique and just play smartly." Yet when someone could do it effectively and incorporate it into their game...

I agree that we should be talking about general tactics more, but every character in the game has general tactics and camping tricks. Lucario is one of the few who are gifted with real combos.
We're shifting out of focus. Not all combos mentioned on these boards are without merit, that's not what I meant. What I meant is that the onslaught of threads about combos should soon give way to discussion of more general aspects of Lucario gameplay so that more productive discussion (and subsequentyly discoveries) can take place, I've made this clear already. Also, I don't mean this to start a separate discussion, but I wouldn't toot that horn just yet about the combo you mentioned being inescapable or foolproof. That will either prove or disprove itself in time. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't work, I've used it myself at times.

Dont be talking s**t about ... blah bloo blah I love living up to my username, so in lieu of forcing one molecule of my brain to activate, in this thread I will narrow everything down to simplistic, remedial English class level assessments and assume the TC and people who agree with him are just unable to do leet Lucario combos like the ones I do. I will completely ignore the fact that this thread is about another thing completely; not about proving or disproving the effectiveness of these "combos", but rather to question whether or not this board is headed in the right direction with its incessant discussion of nothing but new "combos". I don't even understand that last sentence I typed... and I forgot why I began this one. Oh well, smiley face so everyone knows how right I think I am about this :)
First of a... wait this counters itself.
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
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^ lol quote edit attack FTW.

I think what Pope is trying to say in short is "I'm sick of hearing about Lucario's combos. We know he can combo, so let's talk about fundamentals."

What are we going to talk about now, the correct spacing for his Dair?

Personally, I think it's about time we got some frame data in here. There's already frame data for Marth, Fox and Lucas. I think that once we have Lucario's frame data, we'll all be pleasantly surprised at how good it is.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

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That's pretty much it, and actually, correct spacing and placement of dairs, especially on shields, would be a great start. Some characters, like Marth and other Lucarios, can easily utilt out of shield between two dairs, so things like this need to get looked at.

Unfortunately I don't have the resources to record frame data, but someone eventually will. It would be cool to have these diagrams I seem to vaguely remember were made for melee, which showed how hitboxes shifted during attacks in the form of animated .gifs. Those would be great for better understanding Lucario's strange disjointed hitboxes. If anyone knows how these can be made then it'd be cool if they could share that knowledge so that we can collectively get to work.
 

Jeepy Sol

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I am interested in doing some frame data. I believe that I have the resources (gamebridge). The only thing is, I'm not 100% sure how I would go about doing it. Is there a guide that explains how to do it? If so , I would be more than happy to do some tests.
 

Silvran

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 3, 2008
Messages
128
I'll agree with the point the TC makes, at least to an extent. The jab->chain grab-> etc. Is a good tactic at low percents (on both sides). However, I think that the idea of edge guard combos (air dodge anyone?) and most canned combos (with a few exceptions) is flawed. Reacting to the opponent and improvising combos constantly keeps you unpredictable and makes it harder for the opponent to react to you. By controlling the stage and forcing your opponents actions, you open up new opportunites, and then have to capitalize on those. It translates to a style where you can control your opponent, setting them up to take even more hits that they'll have trouble predicting due to the number of comboing options Lucario has. Just my two cents, if anyone cares.
 

Yazman

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Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
6
hey guys i just did fair-fair-fair-fair-fair-fair on my roomate. Sometimes i paused in between. I have extensively tested it and i agree we should call it the yazman combo. Lucario is great i come up with a new combo every day
 

Milln

Smash Champion
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hey guys i just did fair-fair-fair-fair-fair-fair on my roomate. Sometimes i paused in between. I have extensively tested it and i agree we should call it the yazman combo. Lucario is great i come up with a new combo every day
Joke Post.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

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hey guys i just did fair-fair-fair-fair-fair-fair on my roomate. Sometimes i paused in between. I have extensively tested it and i agree we should call it the yazman combo. Lucario is great i come up with a new combo every day
Don't take Yaz if you have asthma, adrenal disease, or take nitrates for chest pain.
 

Wheelz

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Mar 21, 2008
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Miami, & Philly
For real what is the game really about having fun, or memorizing a strand of combos so you can get an auto-win? As a Lucario main myself I think that you should go into a battle and play the best you can forget combos
 

indianunit

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 16, 2008
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Freehold, NJ
For real what is the game really about having fun, or memorizing a strand of combos so you can get an auto-win? As a Lucario main myself I think that you should go into a battle and play the best you can forget combos
i agree 80%. combos still help though.
 

Finch

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For real what is the game really about having fun, or memorizing a strand of combos so you can get an auto-win? As a Lucario main myself I think that you should go into a battle and play the best you can forget combos
ur bad

lol @ auto win
 

rayecho

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For real what is the game really about having fun, or memorizing a strand of combos so you can get an auto-win? As a Lucario main myself I think that you should go into a battle and play the best you can forget combos
It;s not really memorizing them, think of it as muscle memory in your fingers. And besides, auto wins don't work in this game lol
 

sasukemaro

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May 31, 2007
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Ok so can we start already!!!!
We really need the info, bec i already have a small compitition coming up.
I would love to know about out of sheild fair-retreat nair- utilt. Very situational
 

Milln

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For real what is the game really about having fun, or memorizing a strand of combos so you can get an auto-win? As a Lucario main myself I think that you should go into a battle and play the best you can forget combos
I did it with Roy Lucario. No strategies, just fighting as hard as I could.
 

Wheelz

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I did it with Lucario. No strategies, just fighting as hard as I could.
Sweet, lmao I was being a little flagerent yes some combos I agree with but when it gets to the point where you're doing 50+ damage come on how are you supposed to have fun. And you never no with items off Final destination I think there is a phyco that can chain combo to the point of an auto win lmao
 

Mynt

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Apr 17, 2008
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Sweet, lmao I was being a little flagerent yes some combos I agree with but when it gets to the point where you're doing 50+ damage come on how are you supposed to have fun. And you never no with items off Final destination I think there is a phyco that can chain combo to the point of an auto win lmao
I don't know about you, but landing 50+ damage in one attack string or combo is pretty ****ing fun to me.

I think people are excited about finding combos because of the fact that they are so rare in this game and we're still clinging to the Melee mentality. When Brawl first came out, everyone seemed to be in the mindset that combos don't exist. Once we started finding combos for certain characters (no matter how situational) everyone wants in on it, and logs hours in training trying to memorize them. We came from years of melee, and no matter how many times people say that brawl is a different game, it is going to take a while for the general populace to shake those habits.

That being said, I agree with the TC... we need take a better look at fundamentals on both offense and defense. You can't learn how to hit a home run before you learn how to hit. The talk about combos probably won't stop anytime soon, but at least people will start talking about other strats as well. Thank you for this topic!!

Oh well, smiley face so everyone knows how right I think I am about this
:)
 

D. Disciple

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Let's talk about empty hopping Lucario's short hops. I can't really say much right now, cause I gotta go to work. But let's talk about strats of utilizing empty hops into your game plan, short hops or full hops.
 

CaliburChamp

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Anybody that says a a 0%-90% combo, or chain grab always works. I dont agree with that. It depends on what stage your playing on, and what character your playing against. Some combos wont work on floaty characters, while others will work on heavy characters, same with large and small characters. Even some infinite combos wont work everywhere. Depends on how the stage is layed out. ITS SITUATIONAL!
 

Elec Man EXE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
105
Eh, I've never focused on "tested" combo's. I make my own as I go. Though I do like to know what moves "pair" well. Like Jab -> Force Palm.

I don't see anything wrong with combo discussion, though. People should know that combo's are never going to be 100% reliable, especially in Brawl. Nothing wrong with throwing ideas around, though.

Basically, seems to me the fault is with the people who try and memorize combos and use them all the time, not threads throwing possible combos around. They just need to realize that won't really help, and that they're more "something to possibly keep in mind" than something to base your entire game around.
 

Greenpoe

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Messages
852
At medium power levels (as in, when the aura is strong and the enemy is at low %'s, vice versa, etc.), you can combo an f-tilt into a fair-nair or fair-fair. Sure, it's a simple combo, but tripling the damage after landing one move is nice!
 
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