An Unaddressed L-Cancelling Issue

[Citizen Snips]

Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I was talking to Flaw yesterday about issues we'd had when learning to l-cancel, and we realized that nobody really was ever able to address an issue we both had.

When you begin to practice l-cancelling, you start to form a pattern in your aerial timings. Now, since during hit lag, you can't fast fall, you learn to time your fast fall after hit lag. The issue is that, when you're fighting bots, you control when and how you approach, so new players will tend to time their aerials the same way every time. The problem with this, however, is that when you enter a real match, you're going to have to use different aerial timings. When these overlap with your fast fall that is now ingrained in muscle memory, you don't fast fall, and then you miss the l-cancel as well because you're used to that specific l-cancel timing.

So, assuming that was confusing, if you can l-cancel against cpus, but you seem to just lose that ability in actual matches, it is very likely that you need to start varying the time during your shffl that you use an aerial. Also you must practice actually hitting a target when you practice l-cancelling. Otherwise you will be like me, still learning new l-cancel timings 2 years after you begin playing.

 

[JOS.fm]

Citizen Snips' A Cautionary Tale

 

[Varist]

wow thank you

thank you a lot

thumbs up dude

 

[Massive]

There is also different L-cancel timing for when you hit a shield, and when the hit is power-shielded (assuming you don't get punished).

The timing can also be altered if the shield is DI'd away from center.

Probably the most important L-cancel to practice is the one where you hit their shield, since it usually allows you to get out of being shieldgrabbed. The only ways to practice this by yourself are with an AR and the infinite shield glitch or lots and lots of invincibility stars.

 

[Shawn101589]

I had this problem when I started playing. My way around it was forcing myself to not press L until my character was on the ground. Instead of trying to learn a timing for it per say, I focused entirely on physically forcing myself to press L when my character landed on the ground, regardless of what else was happening. It took a bit of getting used to, and even divided my focus a bit, but I'd definitely recommend it for people who have trouble with their timings. Eventually the timing became natural.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this somewhere. You can input the fastfall during hitlag. You have a 3(4 total? I don't remember, Strong Bad answer this question) frame window to put in a fast fall, so if you do it during the last 3 frames of hitlag, you will automatically fast fall first possible frame after hitlag.

The l-cancel window works the same way. If you do late hits, you can just input the l-cancel after the fastfall input or after hitlag ends and it will work as long as the number of frames between your l-cancel and touching the ground is inside of 6, touching the ground on the 7th frame. So like, if you input with 2 more frames of hitlag, 3 frames till you touch the ground after hitlag, your L-cancel will still work.

Stop telling people to practice vague ****. Look at how the actual frames/inputs work. All you are doing is telling people to practice a different timing without explaining why its different.

 

[SUNG666]

There is also different L-cancel timing for when you hit a shield, and when the hit is power-shielded (assuming you don't get punished).

^Is this true?

 

[Cactuar]

L-cancelling is always the 6 frames before landing + the frame of landing. The timing of when you have to do it never changes in relation to when you hit the ground, but the amount of time you spend in the air changes based on what you hit, so it takes longer before you reach that 6 frame window. Most people mess this up because they input the l-cancel too early, not anticipating those extra frames.

 

[Varist]

or just spam z button the whole time you're in your aerial animation and NEVER miss an l cancel again lol

 

[Citizen Snips]

L-cancelling is always the 6 frames before landing + the frame of landing. The timing of when you have to do it never changes in relation to when you hit the ground, but the amount of time you spend in the air changes based on what you hit, so it takes longer before you reach that 6 frame window. Most people mess this up because they input the l-cancel too early, not anticipating those extra frames.

That's exactly what I'm saying though. From the way I understand, if you're in hitlag on the rise, and you expect to reach the peak and fast fall, those 6 frames are within your rising animation, meaning you cannot fast fall for 6 extra frames. Maybe this is incorrect, but either way, something from hitlag causes people to **** up their fast fall and, as a result, their l-cancel. The issue here is not the l-cancel, it is the fast fall.

My wording is probably a little off, but the issue it addresses is just the same. This isn't vague, it's a very specific issue that people obviously don't actively address, as nobody on any of the boards I visited while having this issue could explain what was happening.

 

[Cactuar]

Did you not read my first post? People miss both of those timings because they don't anticipate hitlag properly. If you know how it works, you know when you can enter the timings with hitlag. Both of the inputs have a buffer window. You are just saying "something causes people to miss the timings". I'm saying exactly what causes people to miss the timings.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Did you not read my first post? People miss both of those timings because they don't anticipate hitlag properly. If you know how it works, you know when you can enter the timings with hitlag. Both of the inputs have a buffer window. You are just saying "something causes people to miss the timings". I'm saying exactly what causes people to miss the timings.

Sorry, I guess I missed it. I got really defensive for some reason. Love you Cactuar <3

 

[Cactuar]

Lol, I could afford to be a little more patient before making snappy responses. Its all good.

 

[Varist]

awwwwww, love <3

 

[Citizen Snips]

awwwwww, love <3

Shut up varist god why do you even post anymore

 

[Oskar]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this somewhere. You can input the fastfall during hitlag. You have a 3(4 total? I don't remember, Strong Bad answer this question) frame window to put in a fast fall, so if you do it during the last 3 frames of hitlag, you will automatically fast fall first possible frame after hitlag.

Wait, really? I made a post asking about that very thing a while ago, and the answer I got was that you basically can't input anything whatsoever while in hitlag (as the attacker). Guess I was misinformed then. That's definitely helpful to know.

 

[Sinji]

Mango's manipulation with his Lcancels with falco is god like.

 

[Spyro]

I sometimes still mess up l canceling with Fox's dair cause of the multiple hits :/, it dose not seem to be a problem thought for my Pikachu when I use fair.

 

[Strong Badam]

There is also different L-cancel timing for when you hit a shield, and when the hit is power-shielded (assuming you don't get

both of these are the same as when hitting a non-shielding opponent.

 

[Varist]

I sometimes still mess up l canceling with Fox's dair cause of the multiple hits :/, it dose not seem to be a problem thought for my Pikachu when I use fair.

That's because Fox falls faster than Pikachu. Harder to time when you hit the ground sooner than you expected missing a dair.

Pikachu's fair is also used in a lunging type of way. Like, if you were to hit a Falcon with Fox dair vs Pikachu's fair, Pikachu would leap over and hit him in the middle of his body. Less distance between Pikachu and the ground, you press L, you're probably going to get it.

If Fox is coming down at Falcon you usually underestimate or overestimate the time it will take for Fox to go through Falcon's whole body. Or Falcon will SDI away from it and you basically slip off the edge of Falcon's body. Then you're gonna hit the ground fast and miss it. Again, Fox has a faster falling speed than Pikachu. You'll almost always miss it if you don't watch their SDI

so yeah, you shouldn't compare Pikachu's fair and Fox's dair. Treat their l-cancels differently

 

[Xyzz]

I screw up the very instant something happens, that I don't expect. I can L cancel if I see what I am going to hit, most of the time at least. But the very instant I expect to whiff, but hit a shield or something.... missed fall fall, missed l-cancel, get punished.

I blame Peach for not forcing me to deal with this ****, and still being able to perform pretty decently (Nobody even three stocked me last tournament (i think I only got two stocked ONCE. And I didn't even know Melee existed until ~1.5 years ago), and there was top10 austrian power ranking players there...). I actually blame other things for my losses, not my inability to l cancel consistently (horribad DI &...).

If anybody has tips on this... I'd be happy to hear, I'm trying to get better with my Falco / Marth, but they are soooo far behind, and I think this is one of the main factors keeping my secondaries from being anywhere close to my Peach...

 

[Citizen Snips]

If anybody has tips on this... I'd be happy to hear, I'm trying to get better with my Falco / Marth, but they are soooo far behind, and I think this is one of the main factors keeping my secondaries from being anywhere close to my Peach...

I initially mained Peach. When I switched to Falcon, I realized I had NO idea how to l-cancel. Sucks man.

To practice, try out a bunch of different aerial timings on taller cpus. Don't worry about comboing. Set the damage ratio to .5 and put a handicap on the cpu. Focus on just getting the fast fall and l-cancel in a bunch of different timings. Practice doing it from standing, from run, and from a walk. Generally I like to group it into roughly three groups: early, standard, and late.

Once you have SHFFL timings down, work on making sure that you can fast fall on full hop aerials that connect.

 

[Massive]

both of these are the same as when hitting a non-shielding opponent.

You don't at all remain airborne for any longer at all when you hit a shield vs a player?

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this somewhere. You can input the fastfall during hitlag. You have a 3(4 total? I don't remember, Strong Bad answer this question) frame window to put in a fast fall, so if you do it during the last 3 frames of hitlag, you will automatically fast fall first possible frame after hitlag.

OMG THANK YOU. A long time ago I was testing FFing during hitlag and I could have sworn I was buffering but everyone told me I was being stupid. >_>

 

[Signia]

Your L-cancel timing might not get screwed up but the timing of your next action might be. That extra time you get for a successful L-cancel needs to be put to use. Being able to do something right after your recovery ends is the best way to maximize your speed.

When practicing L-cancelling be sure to do something out of the recovery, like dashing or some frame trap or invincible move.

 

[Strong Badam]

You don't at all remain airborne for any longer at all when you hit a shield vs a player?

no. hitlag and shield hitlag are equal. it might change your FF timing because the edge of a shield is a different distance than a standard hurtbox but the hitlag is the same.

Cactuar: It's 3.

 

[Cactuar]

Thanks SB. 3 frames is the buffer + first available input frame, so the total frame gap of a fully used buffer is 4 frames. This only matters for the two "earliest possible" fast falls, which are at the peak of the jump and at the end of hitlag. As an attacker, I don't think this doesn't gets used in any other situation.

 

[Cactuar]

OMG THANK YOU. A long time ago I was testing FFing during hitlag and I could have sworn I was buffering but everyone told me I was being stupid. >_>

You'd be surprised at how massive the negative influence of misinformation on the development of the metagame is. This is knowledge that could make people far more technically consistent just by being aware of it. Don't even need to practice it for any significant period of time and you will see a huge benefit to your game.

You'd also be surprised at the quantity of misinformation out there.

@Oskar: Your mistake was that you asked that question in a thread I never look at.

 

[Xyzz]

I initially mained Peach. When I switched to Falcon, I realized I had NO idea how to l-cancel. Sucks man.

To practice, try out a bunch of different aerial timings on taller cpus. Don't worry about comboing. Set the damage ratio to .5 and put a handicap on the cpu. Focus on just getting the fast fall and l-cancel in a bunch of different timings. Practice doing it from standing, from run, and from a walk. Generally I like to group it into roughly three groups: early, standard, and late.

Once you have SHFFL timings down, work on making sure that you can fast fall on full hop aerials that connect.

Like I said, if I know what to expect (Shielded / non shielded hit and how high above the floor I am going to hit or whether I am going to completely whiff), I will usually get the L cancel done.
My dash-jump aerials do need some training, though. I sometimes screw up the spacing and end up at a place where I didn't want to go (like not crossing up a shield, although I wanted to)... stupid non Peach characters wanting completely other things from me

 

[iRobinhoood]

I'm just starting to get l-cancels down and right now I'm aiming to hit the l-cancel whenever I feel I'm nearing the ground. THat's about the best I can do at this point.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Like I said, if I know what to expect (Shielded / non shielded hit and how high above the floor I am going to hit or whether I am going to completely whiff), I will usually get the L cancel done.

The point of this kind of practice is not just to ingrain muscle memory. It's meant to train your eye to recognize when you land a specific timing. The more you practice it, the less thought you'll need to put into being aware of when you're landing. Eventually, your brain will passively identify which type of hit you landed on reaction, eliminating any surprises that you would get anticipating things, and compensate automatically. The goal is to not have to consciously stay aware of how high above the ground you are so you can commit your full focus towards the mental aspect of the game.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

learned something new from this thread

schweet

though i swear i've been doing this instinctively for years. I always fastfall RIGHT before my hitlag ends. I guess I've been buffering it without knowing :o

 

[Massive]

it might change your FF timing because the edge of a shield is a different distance than a standard hurtbox but the hitlag is the same.

Thanks for the clarification, I apologize if I mislead anyone.

 

[KrIsP!]

You'd be surprised at how massive the negative influence of misinformation on the development of the metagame is. This is knowledge that could make people far more technically consistent just by being aware of it. Don't even need to practice it for any significant period of time and you will see a huge benefit to your game.

You'd also be surprised at the quantity of misinformation out there.

Then where can I find this real information? I am so damn misinformed it's like a revelation every other day. I learned simple tech skill years ago but it never worked out because I learned it all off of a friend who was new himself. Second hand information from someone who was paraphrasing stuff he didn't fully understand led to huge problems that I've only come to start fixing the last month or so as I came back to the forums. I'm gunna go read SB's thread cause I never have and I'm sure there's golden nuggets in there.

 

[pkmaximum]

I don't get why people won't just learn to try to L-cancel until their character hits the ground.....

 

[Prez08]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this somewhere. You can input the fastfall during hitlag. You have a 3(4 total? I don't remember, Strong Bad answer this question) frame window to put in a fast fall, so if you do it during the last 3 frames of hitlag, you will automatically fast fall first possible frame after hitlag.

The l-cancel window works the same way. If you do late hits, you can just input the l-cancel after the fastfall input or after hitlag ends and it will work as long as the number of frames between your l-cancel and touching the ground is inside of 6, touching the ground on the 7th frame. So like, if you input with 2 more frames of hitlag, 3 frames till you touch the ground after hitlag, your L-cancel will still work.

Stop telling people to practice vague ****. Look at how the actual frames/inputs work. All you are doing is telling people to practice a different timing without explaining why its different.

Dude I had this same question and I'm glad this thread showed up in Google. Good stuff!!

 

[-ACE-]

Just hit R twice when in doubt.... you can hit R/L/Z as many times as you want to get the cancel, you just don't want to continue to hit the button after you get the cancel.