Analyzing projectile properties and in game stategies with them

[markchalky]

wanna know a cool trick?
on temple, (awesome level :D ) if u are stuck at the bottom and want a great lookin good way of getting up to the top then follow these instructions...
on the bottom platform take out a bomb count to 2 and jump of the edge. DONT DASH or you will only get one jump. do double jump, then up + B to try and get as much distance and height as possible, then the bomb should explode and you can up+ B again to latch onto the side of the top right bit.

 

[BBoyindo]

wanna know a cool trick?
on temple, (awesome level :D ) if u are stuck at the bottom and want a great lookin good way of getting up to the top then follow these instructions...
on the bottom platform take out a bomb count to 2 and jump of the edge. DONT DASH or you will only get one jump. do double jump, then up + B to try and get as much distance and height as possible, then the bomb should explode and you can up+ B again to latch onto the side of the top right bit.

Lulz
10lulz

 

[markchalky]

Lulz
10lulz

HUh?

 

[DarkISDA]

I've just read the Special Momentum Shift and it made me think of something that ''could'' be useful, though I can't verify it at the moment. Could you use it as you are being knocked off stage? I mean, let's say I get hit by a deadly forward smash from Ike for some reason, I'm send far, I'd use my back air so I can jump ASAP and then do the Special Momentum Shift to cancel the rest of the momentum. Think it could be of any use?

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Im alive! i wasnt suppose to get another modem to atleast tomorrow or thursday, but im not complaining.

Fox: ok, its cool you discovered a consistant way to the tilt throw. Regarding the 3.2 (thats how i look at it),it is still in the developmental stage. Right now it is a lot you have to do but we can still edit it. We can always go back and find out better shorter alternates for something or something along those lines. Even without changes like you said if someone could do it, then it'd be all good. If you think about it once someone lands the nair/zair, they will be pretty much set, and if they decide they dont to do the whole thing they have a nice damage racker.

Basically, i think so far this is comming along nicely.

DTL: thanks for the vid man, it will really help people understand this along with future techniques alot better.

I appoint you the offical projectile cameraman! The only thing i have to say is when i did it i think i got more distance. idk though ill check it out later.

Power: That sounds very interesting and if DTL is going to upload a vid then ill give a full evaluation once i see it if not ill just edit this post:bigthumbu

Sasuke & DarkISDA: i was just thinking that it could be used for recovery. I remember a little while ago i asked in the question thread does toonlink have any 'brake' moves, because i seen some people were finding some for their character. Anyway i think this could be used for braking.
*goes to try to find a Fsmash happy Ike*

ill address the other ppl later when i edit

 

[Sosuke]

HEY GUYS MAYBE IT CAN BE USED TO DI INSTEAD OF USING BAIR!???

Random thought.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

OK, I think I have found a sort of improvement on the SMS,

It doesn't really matter which direction you're facing, it just depends on which direction you're going in, left or right.

When you do the SMS,
if you first press The direction you're going in, B, then you will reverse both momentum and shoot the boomerang in the same direction as your new momentum. This is what you called the backwards one.
If you first press The opposite direction, B, then you will reverse your momentum, but your boomerang will go opposite the direction of your new momentum. This is what you called the forwards one.

Additionally, I think any character can do the SMS, it's just more useful for projectile users.

From what I can make out, I think your trying to explain the SMS differently. Which is cool if it helps you understand, but it just makes me confused. I'm pretty sure I've already covered all of it in other posts (other then the one in the OP). One question, What is the improvement that you spoke of in the first sentence?

I've just read the Special Momentum Shift and it made me think of something that ''could'' be useful, though I can't verify it at the moment. Could you use it as you are being knocked off stage? I mean, let's say I get hit by a deadly forward smash from Ike for some reason, I'm send far, I'd use my back air so I can jump ASAP and then do the Special Momentum Shift to cancel the rest of the momentum. Think it could be of any use?

Dude! Now where talking! I'll check it out ASAP and let you guys know if this is possible.

 

[Lobos]

Sadly TL doesn't have brake moves like g&w's bucket. I also tried messing with SMS awhile back and trying to see if that helps DI when getting sent flying.

The best options are still dair + DI or uair + DI. It would be cool if you guys did find something else about it tho. I don't post in here often but keep up the good works guys.

 

[Sosuke]

Dair is bad Lobos.

Uair / Bair seem to be the best as of now. =/

 

[DCStyle]

Eh. When I get sent far enough back without dying and have a chance to recover, I end up bomb pulling just in case I need to block my opponent from edge guarding. I don't know how useful the SMS would be since you're already in air. The best use of the SMS was to switch directions in momentum, but when you're already in the air, it wouldn't necessarily be an SMS, but more of a regular boomerang throw. Unless you mean doing the entire back rang throw forward jig. I think it'd be more effective to just DI back to the platform. o.O

 

[Lobos]

Dair is bad Lobos.

Uair / Bair seem to be the best as of now. =/

I think it depends on the situation and angle....bombs can also slow down momentum.

 

[-Tempest-]

Sadly TL doesn't have brake moves like g&w's bucket. I also tried messing with SMS awhile back and trying to see if that helps DI when getting sent flying.

The best options are still dair + DI or uair + DI. It would be cool if you guys did find something else about it tho. I don't post in here often but keep up the good works guys.

Well, technically TL DOES have a braking move, but it's highly situational.

 

[TLMarth]

From what I can make out, I think your trying to explain the SMS differently. Which is cool if it helps you understand, but it just makes me confused. I'm pretty sure I've already covered all of it in other posts (other then the one in the OP). One question, What is the improvement that you spoke of in the first sentence?Dude! Now where talking! I'll check it out ASAP and let you guys know if this is possible.

Um the 'improvement' was the explanation

Basically you said if you
face right
jump backwards
press backwards b
press forwards,
then you suddenly go forwards (to the right) and throw the boomerang forwards.

Well if you
face left
jump forwards
press forwards b
press backwards
you suddenly go backwards (to the right) and throw the boomerang backwards.

Notice that when you face right and jump backwards, you go in the same direction as when you face left and jump forwards.
Also notice that all 'backwards' in the first case are the same direction as 'forwards' in the second case.
and all 'forwards' are the same as 'backwards.

Now, forwards and backwards are relative to which way you face. But the left and right are absolute. So both can be consolidated into:

Jump left,
press left b,
press right,
you will shift momentum to the right and throw the boomerang to the right.

Now, if you jump right, directions are changed.

Jump right,
press right b,
press left,
you will shift momentum to the left and throw the boomerang to the left.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that forwards and backwards should be relative to your momentum, not which way you face.

This way you can say:

Jump in a direction,
press original direction, b,
press the opposite direction,
and you will move in the opposite direction and throw in the opposite direction.

NOW NEW TOPIC

The second momentum shift, where you shift to the opposite momentum, but shoot your projectile in the original momentum.

Jump in a direction,
press the opposite direction, b,
press the original direction,
and you will move in the opposite direction and throw in the original direction.

Does it all make sense? Or am I just explaining again? Or am I just simplifying it?

Those two sets of directions sum up the SMS.
Note: It doesn't matter which way you face in the beginning, but you will face a certain way in the end, depending on which direction you threw the boomerang in.

 

[DCStyle]

The confusing factor in your explanation is that you can be jumping left and still be facing right.

Lets just say:

Jump in the direction you're facing
Throw the boomerang in the direction you're facing
Switch directions to the opposite direction to move in that direction.

Another thing I haven't tried yet, using SMS to shift your momentum forward while jumping forward. It'll help your spacing, set up for sudden combos (kind of like how a zair works when it hits).

My theory would be jump forward, smash boomerang opposite direction, and DI forward again.

 

[TLMarth]

Yeah but it doesn't matter which way you're facing -_-

 

[DCStyle]

Yeah but it doesn't matter which way you're facing -_-

It does, considering you can technically turn around completely while doing the SMS during the boomerang throw.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Basically you said if you
face right
jump backwards
press backwards b
press forwards,
then you suddenly go forwards (to the right) and throw the boomerang forwards.

Well if you
face left
jump forwards
press forwards b
press backwards
you suddenly go backwards (to the right) and throw the boomerang backwards.

Ok I knew about the second one. Thats actually a B-reversal with a boomerang. I've been saying that we can do this for a while now.

What the B reversal can't do is this.

I've just read the Special Momentum Shift and it made me think of something that ''could'' be useful, though I can't verify it at the moment. Could you use it as you are being knocked off stage? I mean, let's say I get hit by a deadly forward smash from Ike for some reason, I'm send far, I'd use my back air so I can jump ASAP and then do the Special Momentum Shift to cancel the rest of the momentum. Think it could be of any use?

Thats right. After extensive testing and making sure I was right, I came to the conclusion that this is confirmed. This means that we can use the SMS to cancel our momentum and save us from our ultimate demise. Just so it's clear, I'll explain what you have to do and what happens.

If you get smashed left or right off stage and you want to use this to save yourself then as soon as you get hit, start trying to do a Bair. As soon as it comes out, jump (jumping is essential) then as soon as you can, hit Backwards B, Forwards (SMS). This will cancel your momentum. You will neither travel forwards or backwards for half a second then you can easilly DI back on stage. Sounds too good to be true? Hey he's a Cartoon, He's supposed to defy the laws of physics and smash. This is yet another way to use the SMS.

Thank you DarkISDA for this brilliant idea. Anymore?

Another thing I haven't tried yet, using SMS to shift your momentum forward while jumping forward. It'll help your spacing, set up for sudden combos (kind of like how a zair works when it hits).

My theory would be jump forward, smash boomerang opposite direction, and DI forward again.

If you do this you will jump forwards, throw the Boomerang forwards and slightly DI Backwards. This is known. If you do find a way to shift your momentum forward while jumping forward, then that would be cool as.

 

[TLMarth]

oh so SMS and B reversal are different
even though they seem to do the same thing -_-

 

[DarkISDA]

Anymore?

Sadly, no. But it's cool to see this working ^^ If I find anything else, I'll make sure to post it

 

[iRjOn]

Yall know this Special momentum shift is bsticking right?
And TLM SMS or bsticking makes you shift your momentum in a different direction while tossing the rang, b reversal doesn't

 

[Disfunkshunal]

irjon b-sticking is different

 

[demonictoonlink]

Making vid...
Yay! I'm camera-man

 

[demonictoonlink]

Kk Here it is. Also, I'm putting some of my matches on soon. Everyone should comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9CG2BsP5B0&feature=channel_page

Ending was for the lulz

 

[DCStyle]

I've actually used that shield bombing technique before in friendly battles. My friends were confused as to how I could attack in a shield. Lol.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

thanks DTL.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey guys, I figured out something weird. I'm not sure if it's known, it should be known because it's so obvious. I'll tell you anyway.

Firstly, I figured out that you can Z-drop a bomb on the ground by jumping and Z-dropping just after you leave the ground. You need to be on any slope, facing uphill, and you need to drop it straight after you jump, (not just before you touch the ground).
Note: The steeper the slope, the easier.

Secondly, If you do this Z-dropping technique on a steep slope, the bomb will slowly slide down hill. It will look strangely white and because it's moving (no matter how slow) it will explode if an opponent touches it. If you drop it too late it will bounce down the slope, you can still make it jump by useing dair but it's less useful. If you drop it any later then that it will explode.

Thirdly, If you do a dair, and land next too the slowly sliding bomb on the higher side of it, instead of sliding off as it usualy would, the bomb will actually jump. You will slide away down the slope, and the bomb will jump after you. Whether it hits you or not all depends on where you started. A good place to test this for yourselves is on Corneria, do it on the one steep slope there is and you will see what I'm talking about.
Note: If you do a dair and it lands on the lower side of the sliding bomb, nothing will happen (other then you sliding off), If you land on the sliding bomb with dair, it will explode.
Also note: This works on all steep slopes except for the green pipe on yoshi's island (Melee), because for some strange reason, the bomb won't slide down the pipe.

So just to sum up; (You have a bomb) Face the steep slope that your standing on, jump and Z-drop straight away, use dair, watch the fun.

 

[vanderzant]

Fox that sliding thing looks really cool I'm going to try that out soon =)

 

[demonictoonlink]

Replay?

10char

 

[Shadow Moth]

I used to use that shield bomb thing when I first played TL but as the level of play of the people around me grew, it became inconvenient. I do it every once in a while now.

I've also found that if you throw a bomb down when you're in the air and want to get to the ground, if your opponent is below you and shields it (not rolls. may work for spot-dodging though but I haven't tried it. please test it, if you can, for all characters) dair-ing right there will almost guarantee a hit. The timing for this is tricky because you have to predict whether or not your opponent will shield the bomb (and again, or possibly spot-dodge) or roll out of the way before the bomb would hit the shield.

This doesn't work if you drop it though; the bomb won't fall fast enough and you'll just end up blowing yourself up.

Let me know if it's known but I'd like that test data to be in here anyway.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Replay?

10char

i got a replay i could send you

 

[TLMarth]

Wow bomb jump

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fox that sliding thing looks really cool I'm going to try that out soon =)

Thx man. Like I said, test it out on Corneria. The bomb will jump after you but not hit you. It's like a huge glide toss!!
Also I had a cool idea about this move. The second part where I'm descibing what the bomb does (how it slides, looks strangely white and will explode if an opponent touches it.) If we drop it like this on a steep slope, as I said it will explode if an opponent touches it because it's still moving, this means that we can use the slowly sliding bomb as a mine. We simply drop it so it slides and continue shooting them from the other side. Then when they try to run past the bomb, Boom. I think you get the point, we have mines like Snake.

Toondiddy: What do you think of it all. Is it usefull, is it new or known, should I look into it more to find follow ups or whatever. Just general feed back.
I'll be hearing from ya.

 

[damezguy]

very good, this will help me alot toon diddy. thanks.

 

[DCStyle]

Wait, so will it work on a slope like the sides of yoshi's? Because if so, it'd be a perfect way to mindgame them into a trap while edgeguarding.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wait, so will it work on a slope like the sides of yoshi's? Because if so, it'd be a perfect way to mindgame them into a trap while edgeguarding.

For it to work, you need to do it on a steep slope. If it's not steep enough, the bomb won't slide, it will just sit there. If the bomb isn't sliding, it won't explode if an opponent touches it and it won't jump after you when you land a dair next to it.

I hope this helps.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

it can be done on yoshi island brawl

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

it can be done on yoshi island brawl

Not realy, I'm not sure you fully understand what the move looks like. The bomb jumps much further and higher if you do it properly on a steeper surface. You'll need to go to Corneria or even Yoshi's Island Melee to do the move properly. If you do go to Yoshi's Melee then keep in mind that for some reason it doesn't work on the pipe on the left side, test it on the right side of the stage.

Remember that for it to work the bomb needs to slowly slide down the slope, the slopes on Yoshi's brawl arn't steep enough for this to happen. That said, the bomb will sort of fall off and out if you do it on the edge of the stage, this isn't what I'm talking about though.

Let me know when you can do it.

 

[vanderzant]

Ok so I tried it out on Coneria and it's pretty cool. It moves a lot slower then what I expected though, but it still could be semi useful.

I also learnt that there is a REALLY large window frame for z dropping a bomb on the ground on a slope =)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok so I tried it out on Coneria and it's pretty cool. It moves a lot slower then what I expected though, but it still could be semi useful.

I also learnt that there is a REALLY large window frame for z dropping a bomb on the ground on a slope =)

Nice man. It's quite strange isn't it.
Your right, it gives you a long time to z-drop it, thats why I'm surpised to see that so far it apears to be unknown.

Z-dropping on the way up of a jump could prove to be quite usefull, it's quicker, less punishable and easier to pull off once you get used to it. Not to mention the strange properties a sliding bomb has.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Not realy, I'm not sure you fully understand what the move looks like.

actually i do. of course it would be alot easier to do, and in somee cases more effected on a steeper slope but it can be done on almost any slope.

Before the bomb can 'jump' it needs a white aura around it like you said. There are two ways that i know of to get the white aura.

1. jump and z-drop on the way UP

or

2. throw the bomb up and at the apex of it, it needs to land on the slant. Ill explain this one more now.

when a bomb is z-drop, you put the bomb on the ground without it exploding. The only way to do this is to make sure that the bomb is falling at a slow enough speed. When an object goes up, it goes up with as much force as it was given, nothing more. as the object reaches its max force it slows down. The apex of an objects upward motion symbolizes the max force level. Using this knowledge it would only make since that at the apex of the bombs height it is moving very slowly and can be place on the ground.
Just throwing that out there.

Anyway, on 99% of slopes the bomb will get a white aura. Even if it is for a split second. On yoshi's island brawl the white aura last alot shorter than it does on say corneria but it still exist. With that being said, obviously the time frame to make the bomb jump is shorter and you'd have to move quicker. If you wait until after the aura is gone and dair then yes the bomb will slide off, but thats only if you go slow.

When looking at something like this i take all possibliltites into mind. that goes from making a custum board that has a very large continuos slant to the very small slant on pirate ship. This technique is one that usefulness will be almost entirely dependent on the player. lot of stages have small subtle slants that could be of use to those with faster fingers and those who take time to notice them.

i will be looking at all the board with a slope and seeing if it is possible to this on them. Also i try to send DTL a couple replays of me doing it on different boards and see if he can mx them together into one vid.



Damezgy: sorry i didnt see you before, glad this thread helped you. feel free to contribute at any time!