Analyzing the Nostalgia Effect

[MuraRengan]

Link to original post: [drupal=5270]Analyzing the Nostalgia Effect[/drupal]



I'm a big Zelda fan, my very first one was OoT. From that one, I've played all of the other Zeldas except for ZeldaII, and I'm one of those people who will tell you that OoT is the best game ever (well technically, I like MM better but I'll say OoT for the sake of this blog.) I've had many friends criticize me for being a nostalgiac fanboy, but generally I'm able to see past nostalgia when it comes to games I like. I still think that OoT is up there in the "no one has made a game even close to as good as this one" category, but the trends in my Zelda experience make it hard for me to deny that nostalgia probably has something to do with it. My affection for the console Zeldas seems to go in descending order. I liked OoT the most, then WW, then TP, then SS. I find it strange that as the newer games come out, I like them less and less. What's even stranger is that a lot of people say that AlttP is the best game, though when I played it (in-between WW and TP) I wasn't even impressed. The issue doesn't stop itself with Zelda games either. I've never finished Kingdom Hearts, I started it, but Sora's personality and the themes of the game irritated me so much that I couldn't finish it. But I've got several friends that played the game and absolutely love it. One of those friends had never played OoT, so I convinced him that he needed to play it. He got through the water temple and decided that he couldn't take the game anymore, which is a mystery to me. The one big difference in all our gaming experiences is that the games we claim to be the greatest are the games that we played when we were younger, and I think that this is the key to understanding why people nostalgia so hard over games.

The thing about being young that affects the nostalgia value habit so much is that when we were young, we were still learning about life and all kinds of new concepts. When I played OoT, I was 7, and I had never experienced many of the concepts that OoT presented. The concepts of being isolated from a community that I lived in, having to do arduous tasks all alone, or becoming an adult and realizing how the world has changed, OoT was my very first experience of these concepts. First experiences mean a lot, especially at a young age, that's why my friend who loves Kingdom Hearts is still impressed by all that light and darkness mumbo jumbo. So in conclusion, a lot of really great games are great because of the learnign experience they provide for the audience.

However, this leads to opposite element in the nostalgia effect: jading. As we age, we naturally become jaded to concepts that we see in games, because life will eventually present these concepts to us so much that we'll become too familiar with them. Life bombards us with so many experiences that eventually what games can present become irrelevant to us. For example, I had never watched Star Wars until about 3 months ago. I decided to watch them all in a matter of 2 days, chronologically. I was entertained, but not impressed, and I must say, I didn't like the older movies at all. But it's not because I think Star Wars is bad, it's because the entire experience presented nothing new for me (except for the prequel light-saber duels, those were cool). The hero's journey, the redemption of a villain, light and dark, etc, these were things I was already familiar with, so the concepts in those movies naturally had much less of an impact on 19-year-old me than they would have had on someone who had watched these movies as a child.

There is one more major element to nostalgia habits: general interest. I don't understand general interests, but I do believe that they are developed subconsciously in very early childhood, though it may be true that they are simply innate. Anyway, people seem to be naturally inclined to like certain games more than others. I cite another friend on this one. He is not very interested in fantasy settings at all. I can't interest him in OoT at all, and outright ridicules JRPGs at every turn. He's much more interested in games with characters who are much more closely identifiable with real people in real (serious-themed) scenarios. I think his favorite game is MGS4 (which I am actually very interested in playing, but I don't have a PS3), and the games he considers to be great experiences are games like Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Grand Theft Auto, inFamous, and God of War. I don't understand his tastes, because all of the games in that list that aren't MGS4 don't seem interesting to me at all. In fact I've played all of the GTAs (3 and after) and some of God of War, and I can say that there's not a single thing I like about them. This is where I think general interest comes into play. At this point in our lives, we are naturally inclined to like different games, so the objects of our nostalgia are naturally different.

Even before I could put my understanding of nostalgia into words, I've been making an effort to view all the new games I'm playing as if everything it presented was something completely new. It's a pretty hopeless endeavor, it just doesn't work. I can't make great games that were good for others in their childhood great for me in my adulthood. As much as my friend tells me, I cannot see anything great about Kingdom Hearts, and he can't see anythign great about OoT. So I'll just have to take his word on it. It seems that gaming as a learning experience is starting to die out for me. That can't be helped, because I'm simply going to get older and older. However, that fact makes the games that most recently gave me that "there has not been a better game that this" experience mean a lot more to me. Such games are Chrono Trigger, which I played when I was 16, Portal 2 (17), and Tales of the Abyss (18). I won't go looking to Zelda for that same OoT experience anymore, because Nintendo has rehashed those ideas so much that they don't mean much to me anymore. Hopefully there are still some games out there that provide a completely new experience for me.

 

[ndayday]

I like this. I'll throw in my experience as well.

My favorite franchise is probably Pokemon, and I really have fond memories of my first Pokemon game, which was Ruby. It was fun, it was different than any other game I had played so far, and imagining the concept of the entire world's oceans being evaporated was something I hadn't ever seen before. I remember in the part where the drought starts and you have to face Groudon, and wondering if there was a time limit or something and what would happen if I didn't hurry. Now though? I still love Pokemon, but not in the same ways I did back then. I'll never get to go into a battle and see a Pokemon I've never seen before, or not know what Tackle does. I guess.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Games, like everything, have to be appreciated in their proper context. When I was 7, LttP was my first Zelda game. I think it's a fantastic game (it's not my favorite Zelda though, MM is), but I can see why someone who's first Zelda was a 3D one would be less than impressed. When I play LttP now, I enjoy it for the memories it brings up, but also as a counterpoint to the newer Zelda games which I feel have grown in important ways, but left behind alot of what made LttP enjoyable.

That's not to say that older games can't be appreciated in contemporary times. My favorite game is Final Fantasy VI, which was released in 1994, yet I didn't play it until 2002. What I appreciate about FF VI is the characterization, and that's something that isn't necessarily affected by advances in technology and gameplay. Generally speaking though, it's very hard to carry games into the future. Those of us who started gaming in the NES/SNES/Genesis era didn't play Atari or Commodore 64; people now don't play N64/PS1 games. They get left behind, and usually for good reason.

 

[Firus]

This is a very interesting topic of discussion, and I'm going to have to agree with Jam Stunna; games, like everything, have to be experienced in their proper context. I think the first experience with something is highly influential on your opinion of it henceforth. I'd definitely say that jading plays a part in things, but I'm not sure that it's even so much nostalgia as a whole rather than just the first experience that creates that basis.

For example, I'll take one of my favorite games of my childhood, Donkey Kong 64. I played that game to death, and to this day I love it. I think it's an excellent game, and I enjoy the environments, the music, the gameplay, everything. Let's take another game, Banjo-Kazooie. I always heard rave reviews for the game over the years, I know that it's a big favorite of a lot of people. I didn't get the game myself until a few years back, and I started playing it. Both of them were made by Rare, and if you've ever played the two of them, you'll know that they're built incredibly similarly. The environments are different and the collection is different, but both games have a lot of item collection, similar music, and overall similar level styles.

While I didn't find anything unenjoyable about BK, I haven't played it since that first time I played it because it brought basically nothing new to the table. It's exactly what you said, OP. Because I already thoroughly enjoyed the same thing, it has little to offer me. The way I've seen it, depending on which game you had as a child -- if you had either -- that's the game you tend to love. My first experience with DK64 was at a time when I'd never seen anything like it, so I loved it. BK came to me after I'd already had plenty of time to enjoy and digest a similar experience in DK64.

I try to keep that effect in mind when I play games nowadays. For example, I never played OoT or Majora's Mask as a kid, but acquired both of them in recent years. I played a little bit of OoT, then played a little of Majora's Mask. From what I've heard and from what I've played, Majora's Mask appeals to me more. But because of things I've read about them, about how though they're pretty identical graphically, Majora's Mask is darker, has a different atmosphere, is less of a straightforward game, etc. I worry about experiencing OoT after I've played Majora's Mask because I feel like it's going to be a letdown, and I'll never be able to experience OoT as anybody playing the games at the time would have.

Still haven't finished OoT, but that would be my laziness and inability to focus on any games I actually should be playing rather than ones I've already beaten a million times.

My favorite games don't really follow the nostalgia thing, although they do pretty much follow the first experience piece. I can't really decide on a single "favorite game" anymore, but my favorites are Mirror's Edge, Super Metroid, Super Mario Sunshine, Melee, and The World Ends With You. Mirror's Edge and TWEWY are definitely like no other game I've played. I believe I'd already played 64 (the DS version, anyway) by the time I got Sunshine, but I didn't even start loving it as much as I do today until two years ago, after I'd already thoroughly played 64 (both the original and the DS remake) and Galaxy. Then again, even the other 3D Mario platformers haven't been quite the same as Sunshine, due to the F.L.U.D.D. aspect. As for Super Metroid and Melee, though...I'd played Metroid Fusion extensively before I played Super Metroid, and I played the original Smash Bros. extensively before playing Melee, so it doesn't really apply to either of those.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

You know, when I was young, I played Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door and thought it was the best game I have played.

After restarting now, I still hold on to that same opinion. For some reason the game still is so fresh and lively to me. Replaying most games usually lead to me becoming dulled and quitting halfway. Paper Mario however, I could do multiple playthroughs and not become bored as easily or even at all. I really just truly appreciate the elements of this game I have come to enjoy seemingly without end.

 

[Teran]

Nostalgia does have its effects, but I wouldn't say nostalgia necessarily blinds us to a game's quality. Nostalgia stems from many things other than just the game. I played a bunch of games as a kid, many of which I just kinda shrug off or barely remember, there are some, however, that have so many fond memories attached to them that they have been ingrained as my favourite. I wouldn't however call all my favourites the best of games. Still, I'd like to think a game has to be great for the positive memories to get associated with it.

Pokémon from Gen 1 - 2 was an absolute phenomenon. You'd probably remember pretty well OP, just how much it dominated every facet of our lives. They had to be quality games to be able to achieve such a goal. The concept had to be fantastic. Also as Jam pointed out in part of his post, some things don't change with graphics or age, things like characterisation. A lot of the older classics which get unfairly branded as nostalgia tinted oozed personality. 1st Gen characters like Gary, the only true rival to ever grace the series. That smug **** that's always one step ahead of you, that smug **** who's always trying to rub it in your face. It feels so right that he becomes the Champion only for you to rip it away from him in a climactic showdown. Team Rocket, simple yet beyond the surface the most threatening and evil of all the antagonistic teams. They abuse and exploit Pokémon (and people) solely for profit, the other Teams are just a bunch of weirdos with ridiculous aspirations.

Again, there are a lot of things objectively worse about old games, and I can understand how it is harder for people to play older games perhaps, but I think that's also a shame because what older games did lead you towards was using your imagination to fill in the gaps. Not just that, but the limitations on older games caused for much more emphasis on melody in tunes, and due to that I find old VGM objectively better. Since Halo, what new franchise has actually had its own theme tune? 10 years without a new recognisable theme tune surfacing? Kinda sad isn't it?

I'm going on a tangent though. There is the jading effect in some senses, but honestly I tend to disagree with the idea that that is significant in most gamers. In fact I'd say the opposite is true. Look at Twilight Princess for example, that game epitomises same old **** recycling, it is a carbon copy of the ALttP formula that has been plauging Zelda games, yet whaddya know, most people lapped it up. TP is one of the most highly regarded Zeldas, and what is it? It's just... bleh

Now I will say that nostalgia does blind in the case of OoT, tbh that game was not that great. It was literally ALttP 3D. Of course that's by no means a bad thing, in fact ALttP is absolutely amazing but well, OoT is just... lacking in some senses because of it. It's just the same thing with a new paintjob. No amount of different items (there weren't evne that many) or location names are going to change that. Honestly I find most people who played ALttP before OoT generally prefer it, and I'm one of those people. ALttP had a truly epic feel beyond that of Ocarina's, and it had some truly masterful atmospheric moments. The first time you enter the Dark World in your human form on top of the Pyramid of Power, and those horns hit beginning the Dark World theme, that moment is a moment I will never forget. I can still vividly imagine Link staring out from the top of a giant pyramid, looking towards the horizon dominated by a scorched sky, a sudden gust blows past him causing his hat to flap in the wind, he draws his sword which glints under the harsh red sun. That **** doesn't happen in games anymore, because instead of relying on music and music and visual art to set the scene, a scene which you colour with your imagination, they show you ****ing gay cutscenes with corny and over the top bull**** acting that deserves Uwe Boll to make movies of them. I always hated how people always pushed for things like voice actings and more of a "cinematic" feel to their games. No, **** you, that is not always appropriate. I do think old games were objectively better, new games tend to be much more processed and a spoonfeeding experience, except they're spoonfeeding you puréed cancer.

Old games did one thing which games need to start doing again. They didn't explain absolutely ****ing everything for no reason. In fact, they didn't even explain a whole bunch of things because it's usually more compelling not knowing stuff. Not just that, but it's just really ******** how in every game, some individual will just come out and somehow accoun for you the reasons and causes of absolutely ****ing everything ever like they lived every minute of it. It's always just so gammy. Majora's Mask, if I can allow myself that example (I've been good and not mentioned it yet) explains as far as one would expect. There's no clarity on everything because everyone has a limit to their knowledge. You know ENOUGH to get the tasks done, and you learn a hell of a lot about the history of the land, but you never quite learn everything. For example you never learn the origin of Majora's Mask, cause no ****, the Ancient Tribe, the only ones who knew things about it, vanished forever. Some random douchebag isn't going to suddenly pop up and say, "oh yeah **** so this is the history of Majora here", and it's not like Majora, some insane villain, is going to be like "oh so hey Link well **** since you stopped the moon and stuff I'm going to recount my entire life story and stuff because you know I'd rather do that than get to destroying **** again because I'm not actually insane I'm just here to improve your gaming experience!"

Yeah, as scatterbrained as my post is, I say old games > new by a country mile and the sad thing is it doesn't HAVE to be that way. The first Mass Effect for example gave me hope in a lot of areas with the depth of its choice/dialogue and its detailed universe that wasn't retardedly full of insignificant detail like Elder Scrolls. The only game I've truly been like YES this generation with apart from ME1 was Monster Hunter 3. Yes. You know why? Fantastic gameplay, really really deep and endlessly addictive. You know what else is great about it? No bull**** premise. Oh and you are some emo ***got and you are so sad and your daddy died at the hands of a Lagiacrus so you became a hunter! No, it's basically, "you are a guy who kills monsters for a living. Get better at killing mosters in this village and then kill the big one. Then kill some more. Then kill some more for fun with other people."

You know what though, even with the limited amount of inherent depth in the narrative and the in game characters, I really do like Moga Village and its inhabitants. I like the chief, the ****ing Felyne Chef, the fat fish lady, I like 'em all, I really feel they've got personality and I remeber all the moments in that game really well. I also feel my hunter really does have a story because of all that, and ****, I use my imagination to flesh it out some more. All of this on a fantastically solid gameplay core.

Buy it people.

 

[Luco]

Well, listening to 'Because I love you' (earthbound, but the cut version from brawl ) has put me in a bit of a calmer mood. Anyway, I'm interested in your analysis and I find it to be pretty true, which is kinda sad because I WANT to be able to enjoy those games. I'm glad that i'm still young enough so that I do get something out of most games but I realise that probably won't last forever (so I try to stretch it out as long as I can ^^ ). But you're right, finding something that breaks past that is so darn amazing that it really becomes something that you'll praise forever. As a person who also played Chrono Trigger far past the age of 5, I similarly understand why that game would be one of your favourites (For me, it's up there on my top games list but another SNES title comes before it: A game called Terranigma. I played it around the same time as I did Chrono Trigger and it is truly stunning. I highly suggest you find a way to play it because it is just so good).

Anyway, it doesn't have to be the story of a game that determines its quality. While story is extremely important in any good game, the actual gameplay mechanics can mean as much as the storyline. This is especially true of many of the marvel and D.C. - based games (that is to say, games such as Spiderman and Batman, etc etc etc....) where the fun of the game comes out in just freely swinging about the city.

I'd say that a game that loses that feeling of bringing something new to the table is one that does it twice: One in story and the other in gameplay. For me, it takes both of those for me to become bored of the game (depending on the series: Take the Mario games... SM Galaxy has so many similarities to SM 64 that it's not funny but I actually quite enjoyed Galaxy).

So that's what I have to say about Nostalgia and its effects. As it stands many of my favourite games are older ones. I don't have a solid list but my favourite games are (in no order):

Terranigma

Chrono Trigger

Final Fantasies IV, V, VI and X (although X-2 wasn't all that bad either)

LoZ: a LttP (for many people, I suspect it isn't purely the game that makes it so amazing to them but also its significance. For many people, a LttP was the game that brought them in to the gaming world)

Earthbound

Yoshi's Island

Super Mario World

Diablo (II) (One I got in to recently but I REALLY enjoy it)

Portal (1 and 2)

Ratchet and Clank (I loved these games but only really managed to play the third one a lot)

Spyro the Dragon (only played the first one On that note, I can't believe how they're treating him in skylanders! He's not part of a team, he's his own team!!!! *grrrrrrr* )

And there are definitely a couple i'm forgetting. But you get the gist. Most of those are older games. Be aware, though, not all of them I played as a child.

 

[BSP]

I totally agree with your jaded thoughts Mura. It's getting really hard to experience each new game as something fresh, which is why I've started to turn more towards games where you aren't following specific story lines or anything, like fighters and racers.

The one exception for me is Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I had Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 when I was a kid (actually, I think they were my first games), so I could tell 3&K's general direction when I finally got a chance to play it for the first time, but it still blew me away.

 

[finalark]

As for nostalgia, well yes of course the games you played from around your childhood all the way through high school will probably end up being your favorites. I'll admit my favorite game of all time is Sonic Adventure 2 despite the game having a god awful camera and some questionable design choices. But it was a big part of my childhood so I love the damn thing to death. Games that generate nostalgia are our favorites for a reason. They bring us back to simpler times in our lives before we all grew up and realized how much the real world sucks.

Does this mean new games are bad? No. Not at all. As a matter of fact, in about 20 years an entire generation of kids who grew up on the PS360 will be telling the internet about how ****ing awesome Arkham City was and how Halo 3 was such a big part of their childhoods. Its all about perspective.

 

[F8AL]

As for nostalgia, well yes of course the games you played from around your childhood all the way through high school will probably end up being your favorites. I'll admit my favorite game of all time is Sonic Adventure 2 despite the game having a god awful camera and some questionable design choices. But it was a big part of my childhood so I love the damn thing to death. Games that generate nostalgia are our favorites for a reason. They bring us back to simpler times in our lives before we all grew up and realized how much the real world sucks.

Does this mean new games are bad? No. Not at all. As a matter of fact, in about 20 years an entire generation of kids who grew up on the PS360 will be telling the internet about how ****ing awesome Arkham City was and how Halo 3 was such a big part of their childhoods. Its all about perspective.

Now do you understand why I love Goldeneye 007 on the N64?

 

[Teran]

Goldeneye had amazing music, I think that's an aspect of the game that's often overlooked. People talk about it revolutionising FPS on console, but it had a lot more going for it than that.

Also it had awesome cheats, cheats should be brought back into gaming.

 

[F8AL]

Goldeneye had amazing music, I think that's an aspect of the game that's often overlooked. People talk about it revolutionising FPS on console, but it had a lot more going for it than that.

Also it had awesome cheats, cheats should be brought back into gaming.

Unfortunately, now some games charge you for cheats.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Goldeneye had amazing music, I think that's an aspect of the game that's often overlooked. People talk about it revolutionising FPS on console, but it had a lot more going for it than that.

Also it had awesome cheats, cheats should be brought back into gaming.

I'm listening to the song from the Cradle stage right now

 

[finalark]

Now do you understand why I love Goldeneye 007 on the N64?

Well yeah I get why you like it. Its just fun to have stupid arguments about it.

cheats should be brought back into gaming.

Seconded. Cheats and passwords is always fun. BUT OH WAIT THOSE MIGHT HELP YOU GET ACHIEVEMENTS THAT DO NOTHING WE CANT HAVE THAT.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah Goldeneye had hectic music. I'd say it's between Zelda and DK for best music.

Most old games aren't as objectively good as their new counterparts when you remove nostalgia and innovation.

I'd say a notable exception is pokemon though. The earlier gens were more difficult (particularly RBY) the battle mechanics were also significantly different, and they had better pokemon. So even outside of nostalgia they offer a different experience, rather than just being the same game with less content and inferior graphics.

 

[finalark]

I'd say a notable exception is pokemon though.

By the nine do I disagree with this.

The earlier gens were more difficult (particularly RBY) the battle mechanics were also significantly different, and they had better pokemon.

I will admit Gen 1 was harder, but that's mostly due to how broken and glitchtastic those games were. The battle mechanics have only gotten better over time and every gen has its mix of awesome and ****ing stupid pokemon. Gen 1 included.

So even outside of nostalgia they offer a different experience, rather than just being the same game with less content and inferior graphics.

Different, yes. Better? Hell no.

 

[Dre89]

The levels of the pokemon were also higher in first gen.

It's generally agreed that the early gen pokemon were awesome, and that gen5's were bad. That was the main criticism of BW.

I never said the earlier gens were better, I said that they offer something that later gens don't outside of nostalgia.

 

[finalark]

It's generally agreed that the early gen pokemon were awesome, and that gen5's were bad. That was the main criticism of BW.

I believe that agreement is based entirely off of nostalgia.

I never said the earlier gens were better, I said that they offer something that later gens don't outside of nostalgia.

I still disagree with this. I replayed Gen 1 via leafgreen recently and I have to say its pretty dull after playing White.

 

[Luco]

Does this mean new games are bad? No. Not at all. As a matter of fact, in about 20 years an entire generation of kids who grew up on the PS360 will be telling the internet about how ****ing awesome Arkham City was and how Halo 3 was such a big part of their childhoods. Its all about perspective.

You took the words out of my mouth, sir.

And I agree, where DID all the cheats go?

You see, many of our childhood games aren't actually great in terms of 'the perfect game' but it's what they symbolize that makes them so special. My brother loves a LttP to DEATH but he accepts that terranigma, for instance, is actually a better game. the reason he loves a LttP is because it was what brought him in to the world of games, it inspired him to keep going. That, he says, is the only reason Terranigma isn't his favourite game and only reaaaalllllly reallllllyyyyy high on his list, pobably just below a LttP.

As for the Pokemon thing, I used to be like my brother and think that all generations outside of 1 were awful. Then my friend gave me Platinum to try out. I played it and... I liked it. While I love RBY to bits, I wouldn't say the later gens are better or worse, they just offer something new each time, which is nice and refreshing.

 

[Dre89]

I believe that agreement is based entirely off of nostalgia.



I still disagree with this. I replayed Gen 1 via leafgreen recently and I have to say its pretty dull after playing White.

Leafgreen has adv gen mechanics, so battling isn't too different from BW apart from the fact that the physical-special divide hadn't happened with moves yet.

3rd and 4th gen pretty much are like BW but with inferior graphics and less content, but better pokemon. They're also too late into most people's lives to have the nostalgia factor, which is why their following isn't as big as other gens, despite still being good games.

That's not to say that you wouldn't find RBY dull after playing BW, but it does have something different to offer. It also depends on how much you know about pokemon. The differences are more pronounced when you understand the game on a deeper/competitive level.

 

[finalark]

That's not to say that you wouldn't find RBY dull after playing BW, but it does have something different to offer. It also depends on how much you know about pokemon. The differences are more pronounced when you understand the game on a deeper/competitive level.

I do very much so understand the game on an advanced level (I went though a pretty big competitive pokemon phase). But yes, gen 1 is very different in that case. I don't think its better.

Although now that I'm not being stupid I'm pretty sure you weren't arguing that gen 1 was better anyway.

You see, many of our childhood games aren't actually great in terms of 'the perfect game' but it's what they symbolize that makes them so special. My brother loves a LttP to DEATH but he accepts that terranigma, for instance, is actually a better game. the reason he loves a LttP is because it was what brought him in to the world of games, it inspired him to keep going. That, he says, is the only reason Terranigma isn't his favourite game and only reaaaalllllly reallllllyyyyy high on his list, pobably just below a LttP.

Exactly. I accept that if anyone who didn't play my childhood classics got a hold of those games nostalgia free they'd thing they're terrible. And in most cases they really are but what they mean to us is why they matter.

 

[Luco]

I don't think nostalgia is all in all a bad thing. True enough that it often blinds us to newer games which are, in reality, reasonably good. However, it's nostalgia that keeps us loving something. If we hadn't played those games and never had that nostalgia effect, we very well may never have become gamers. It does a lot for us, for all it seems threatening.

 

[Teran]

I'm listening to the song from the Cradle stage right now

Man +rep that was the perfect track.

Finish the job James, if you can!

Seconded. Cheats and passwords is always fun. BUT OH WAIT THOSE MIGHT HELP YOU GET ACHIEVEMENTS THAT DO NOTHING WE CANT HAVE THAT.

Lol.

It's funny because in Goldeneye for example cheating would simply mean whatever you did with cheats activated didn't count, I don't know why they can't just add a couple lines of code to facilitate that.

Man I hate achievements more than anything else that has been introduced to gaming in the past generation.

Edit: Also when it comes to Pokémon, the earlier gens are markedly different with the fact that the tone of RBY/GBC is far more realistic (could almost say grittier) in its portrayal of a world. From RSE onwards Pokémon has become really sort of cartoonish and myth/legend based. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but the tonal shift is there, and you'd have to be blind not to see it. First two gens pretty much had you go through the world and come across criminal atrocities that you would stop with your skills, the pinnacle of your journey wouldn't come from some cataclysmic legendary battle, but through growing as a person and eventually besting your arrogant/heartless rival, and hopefully turning them onto a better path.

The gens after just replaced the villains that were actual criminals with cartoonish nutjob characters that would only exist in typical anime universes. ****ing weirdos who dress up in all blue and want to awaken a legendary Pokémon to expand the oceans. Okay. ****ing crazy guy who wants to awaken a legendary Pokémon to create his own perfect universe, plus the introduction of a god Pokémon. Then we've got the whole Black and White duality stuff plus Team Plasma and their whateverthe**** ideals.

Pokémon captured our imaginations as kids not because it was some omg totally dfferent world, there were so many ****ing zany concepts in general media of the 90s and early 00s, it drew us in because it had elements of a world we understood, our own world, and it just felt so accessible in terms of our imagination. We could imagine ourselves in that world.

I don't hate any of the gens really, and I'm still an avid Pokémon player, but I have to give the gold stamp to the first two gens. Pokémon Colosseum and XD also get special mention.

 

[BSP]

All guns + Infinite ammo + paintball mode = good times

 

[Luco]

I don't mind achievements actually. I have some problems with kinect-like things though. For the wii it wasn't too bad actually. In any case, it's only the early additions that are annoying, I know they'll fix this as time goes on but it's REALLY annoying if you have to stand there, waving your arms around like you're epilectic for 20 minutes trying to get the screen to recognize that YOU'RE THERE AND YOU'RE A LIVING, BREATHING HUMAN BEING WHO WANTS TO PLAY THE STUPID GAME.

Dang those sensors are soooooo bad though.

 

[Teran]

All guns + Infinite ammo + paintball mode = good times

Man you forgot Turbo Mode.

Once you turn that on, you will never play the game normally again.

 

[finalark]

I wouldn't mind achievements if there wasn't so much ****ing emphasis put on them. Seriously, every game encourages you to go after achievements, which reward either something cosmetic or nothing at all depending on the game, as a way to increase replay value. Or you know, they could just put side content into the game but NOPE THAT'S GOTTA BE DLC.

Actually, I think DLC is the worst thing to ever hit video gaming. Even though I'm a pretty big advocate for the idea that modern games are on par with old games I will agree that DLC is the stupidest thing ever made. Unless its basically a downloadable expansion pack like Dawnguard for Skyrim.

 

[F8AL]

All guns + Infinite ammo + paintball mode = good times

Tell me about it, every now and then, I go back to Goldeneye 007 on the 64 and relive those awesome times. Wish they'd re-release that HD remake but

EDIT:

I wouldn't mind achievements if there wasn't so much ****ing emphasis put on them. Seriously, every game encourages you to go after achievements, which reward either something cosmetic or nothing at all depending on the game, as a way to increase replay value. Or you know, they could just put side content into the game but NOPE THAT'S GOTTA BE DLC.

Actually, I think DLC is the worst thing to ever hit video gaming. Even though I'm a pretty big advocate for the idea that modern games are on par with old games I will agree that DLC is the stupidest thing ever made. Unless its basically a downloadable expansion pack like Dawnguard for Skyrim.

Well, soon achievements/cheevos will be eligible for MSP if you're signed up for XBL rewards starting this fall. I doubt it'll be retro-active tho. =/

 

[WindMajor]

The only reason I like achievements is so I can see how far my friends have gotten in a game, without having to ask them. I wish gamerscore was completely gone though.

I would say something about nostalgia but everything I want to say has already been said. :S

 

[Holder of the Heel]

If Pokemon were real, there would most certainly be nutjobs who want to create universes and crap. Of course there would. And there would be people who believe in the ideals of what N said, hell, that was something I talked to my brother and friends about when I first played Pokemon as a child; besides, a lot of the shows we watched at that age had those wildly ambitious charactes. But at any rate, I don't see how that grander scale of things makes the games worse in any way other than subjective preference. Games back in the day didn't give a crap about story, which is cool in its own way, but now most games add in a story or focus on that, which is cool in its own right as well.

I also don't see what's wrong with DLC if it is made after the game was put out, as in its an expansion. When games come out with expansions, no one complains about that, people like it. DLC can just be expansions.

 

[finalark]

I also don't see what's wrong with DLC if it is made after the game was put out, as in its an expansion. When games come out with expansions, no one complains about that, people like it. DLC can just be expansions.

Like I said, I don't have an issue if its an expansion pack like Dawnguard or Ballad of Gay Tony. But when its something like making us pay for content that's already on the disk or something that was obviously supposed to be part of the game in the first play then its just ****ing horrible.

I think that when it comes to DLC abuse that's the only time when I'll ever say that my nostalgia is right about games being better back then. Remember when you all you had to do was buy the disk and then you could play everything on it? Man, if Spyro 2 came out today I bet half of the side quests would be cut from the game just to make you pay ten bucks for the rest of them.

 

[Teran]

If Pokemon were real, there would most certainly be nutjobs who want to create universes and crap. Of course there would. And there would be people who believe in the ideals of what N said, hell, that was something I talked to my brother and friends about when I first played Pokemon as a child; besides, a lot of the shows we watched at that age had those wildly ambitious charactes. But at any rate, I don't see how that grander scale of things makes the games worse in any way other than subjective preference. Games back in the day didn't give a crap about story, which is cool in its own way, but now most games add in a story or focus on that, which is cool in its own right as well.

I also don't see what's wrong with DLC if it is made after the game was put out, as in its an expansion. When games come out with expansions, no one complains about that, people like it. DLC can just be expansions.

Yeah but they would just be dumb**** teenage cults. I mean how the hell do these people finance all their activities?

At least Team Rocket were essentially the Mafia who used Pokémon to facilitate their criminal activity, and stole/abused/sold pokémon as a means to increase their profits.

They're the sort of villains who just like in real life, would be successful.

I mean which sort of people control the underworld irl: people like wiccans and conspiracy theorists who blame everything bad on Zionists and Jews, or multinational drug cartels and casino owners?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

They probably use the same methods as Team Rocket. Either that or it could be ridiculously rich people backing it up, such as N being a prince. Ghetsis probably did Team Rocket methods to get financed in addition as well. They never really portray the ambitious people as unwilling to do illegal things to get what they want considering they all did do illegal things.

 

[finalark]

It kinda makes you wonder if Nintendo moved away from the more realistic tone of R/B (or at least as realistic as you can get in a game about ten year olds making animals fight for sport) to the more fantastical tone of the later games to make them have more in common with other JRPGs.

For instance, the plot of RSE is that a villain bent on world domination wants to use an ancient artifact to summon a long forgotten beast of legend to use its power. That sounds like it could be the plot of a million other JRPGs.

 

[Teran]

@ Holder: Yeah but it's all just left to assumption in a silly way. It's all totally wacky and cartoonish which again I'm not opposed to, I mean it's a kids' game in terms of its demographic so of course it's not something one can necessarily criticise, but I do think my points about Team Rocket, your rivals, and the general thematic structure of your journeys in the first two gens are perfectly valid and hold true as to why many do gravitate to these games beyond nostalgia.

It's also why I liked Cipher and Colosseum/XD so much, they were games that drew me in with their character rich locales with realistic themes such as corruption, ciminality, redemption, and basic good and evil. Good stuff, plus the music was awesome, but good music has always been Pokémon's forte.

Gen I imo had the strongest overall soundtrack with basically every tune being amazingly memorable, but every generation had fantastic bits of music so yeah.

Definitely should consider there is a lot more to why games are popular than their basic gameplay. Lots of franchise become objectively better as gameplay experiences, but games that really stick in the mind are usually ones that transcend the medium with great atmosphere, music, character design etc, these kinds of things, if not matched or topped, will cause people to feel sequels are inferior.

I mean I went from ALttP --> Link's Awakening --> OoT --> Majora's Mask, and I felt Majora's Mask was the best, and ranked ALttP above OoT and of course still do.

So yeah, people need to stop saying stuff like "oh but the mechanics are so much better". Pretty much every FPS' mechanics are objectively superior to Goldeneye 64's or Perfect Dark's, but those two stand out as beacons of FPS, and it wasn't just for the mechanics.

Also @ finalark: I think another large part of it was because of gaming censors. Censorship starting getting more heavy post 9/11 for everything.

I mean ****, Gamblers were changed to "Gamers" and the Game Corner has been removed. D:

 

[finalark]

So yeah, people need to stop saying stuff like "oh but the mechanics are so much better". Pretty much every FPS' mechanics are objectively superior to Goldeneye 64's or Perfect Dark's, but those two stand out as beacons of FPS, and it wasn't just for the mechanics.

That may be, but as someone who didn't play those games until around eleven years after those games came out I can easily say its hard to appreciate them if you didn't play them back in '98 and '00. Tell you the truth, I appreciate what they did for the console FPS but as someone who didn't play much N64 when the console was new I find those games borderline unplayable garbage.

Also @ finalark: I think another large part of it was because of gaming censors. Censorship starting getting more heavy post 9/11 for everything.

I mean ****, Gamblers were changed to "Gamers" and the Game Corner has been removed. D:

And its really jarring when they say that they're a "rablin', gamin' dude!" or something to that end.

Its interesting because, as you pointed out, gen 1 was very grounded in reality despite its target audience. Mewtwo, the penultimate obtainable pocket monster in that game was created by science. He wasn't a creature of legend, he was a man made killing machine. Kinda of strange to think about when in every generation that came after each legendary had, well, a legend tied to it.

 

[Teran]

That may be, but as someone who didn't play those games until around eleven years after those games came out I can easily say its hard to appreciate them if you didn't play them back in '98 and '00. Tell you the truth, I appreciate what they did for the console FPS but as someone who didn't play much N64 when the console was new I find those games borderline unplayable garbage.

See that's just because you're going in looking to play some sort of marvel rather than just relax and have an experience and try to take stuff in.

I play a lot of older games and have no trouble with them unless they are actually bad. I have a strong sense of imagination, those pixels there are simply a rough sketch to guide my mind towards what I colour the world with my imagination, using the themes, sounds, and characters I'm presented with. It's a hell of a ride and part of why I'm quite big on subtractive design and artistic flair over hyper realism.

I do love me some realistic graphics (I'm a huge gfx *****) but ya know, I'm not going to play through again in 10 years time if all you did was be pretty.

Edit: Also it's funny although Gen II had legendaries, Ho-Oh left humanity because of its inherent greed and evil. Again, slightly more complex themes than ARCEUS SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT

 

[Falconv1.0]

Nostalgia is in full effect when people claim Goldeneye is still the best. I mean it's the best game ever if you compare it to no other game ever, but that's like saying McDonald's makes the highest quality food if you compare it to ****ing nothing.

Old games that are good should remain good unless it was an online game that got ****ed over by bad patches or hackers. Old games that are bad are remembered as being the best because everyone ever sucks. FF7 is my favorite example. Nothing about that game has any real design lessons to learn from, and don't you ****ing tell me that's because it's old, Egoraptor already proved that there are older games that you can learn good design lessons from.

 

[Teran]

Final Fantasy VI was pretty good lol, kinda the Majora's Mask of Final Fantasy.

 

[finalark]

See that's just because you're going in looking to play some sort of marvel rather than just relax and have an experience and try to take stuff in.

I play a lot of older games and have no trouble with them unless they are actually bad. I have a strong sense of imagination, those pixels there are simply a rough sketch to guide my mind towards what I colour the world with my imagination, using the themes, sounds, and characters I'm presented with. It's a hell of a ride and part of why I'm quite big on subtractive design and artistic flair over hyper realism.

I do love me some realistic graphics (I'm a huge gfx *****) but ya know, I'm not going to play through again in 10 years time if all you did was be pretty.

Well I'm not saying it has anything to do with the way the game looks. I still play my PS1 from time to time I have no issue with silly low rez texture. I mean that litterally, I just cannot play those games. Or any N64 game for that matter. For me, its like there is something fundamentally wrong with the N64 controller that prevents me from enjoying any game I play with it. For instance, I didn't grow to appreciate the Banjo games until I played the 360 port and I didn't really care for OoT until I played it on a Game Cube.

FF7

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that FF7 is only fondly remembered because it was most people's first RPG.

Aso I'd like to point out the only reason why people act like the good game out numbered the bad games in the past was because so much time has gone by that people only remember the good games while the bad ones fade from memory. In about twenty years PS360 kids will be the same. They'll only remember the good games on those consoles while the bad ones will suddenly stop existing.