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Anyone else miss....?

SnatoWhato

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
69
Sometimes, and this gets more rare the more I get used to Project M, but sometimes... I miss how Sonic's up Smash in brawl pulled everyone in for multiple hits. I always used it in brawl to rack up damage on everyone at once. In Project M, its just one hit but it is more reliable as a kill move,.. so I'm kinda divided lol. I LOVE how this Sonic is made though. Every move change has been for the better. It feels more like a true Sonic once I get momentum and start pulling off those crazy combos all over the place. My buds hate when I pick the Blue Blur. And that forward air? GENIUS! I love spiking people who are trying to come back to the stage.

I'd also like to see a taunt where he says, "I'm waaaiiting..." Or "Way past cool!" How about "I gotta juice!" Or something like that? lol It'd be neat.

So yeah, is there anything about Brawl Sonic you guys miss? I KNOW Project M Sonic is superior by ALOT. But I had to train myself to stop trying to use the Up Smash to rack up damage. I kept stopping in front of them and up smash and they would just punish me for it. lol
 

Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
331
Location
La Plata, Maryland
NNID
Nazoplex
I enjoy sonic's taunts and move-sets as they are; taunt cancelling "you're too slow" mid combo is all I ever really wanted in life. My only complaint about sonic is the janky animation for Dtilt; his back leg looks F'd up.
 

Wizzrobe

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
2,280
Location
Florida
I love new Sonic in every way because he is just a much better version of brawl sonic cause he has way less end lag/landing lag on all his moves.
 

leelue

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
1,926
Location
All up in your personal space, NY
I leave the community for like 2 weeks, come back to find a lie on the page.

Not my fault I live in a region with the best PM player on the coast and M2K

Still have never been out of the money at any PM event. Ever.
 

Wizzrobe

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
2,280
Location
Florida
I leave the community for like 2 weeks, come back to find a lie on the page.

Not my fault I live in a region with the best PM player on the coast and M2K

Still have never been out of the money at any PM event. Ever.

Yes, and I got Hugrybox and Plup.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
dick waving aside, the current PM sonic is a blatant mistake to anyone who actually understands smash as a game. "anyone else miss...?" I miss playing real smash every time I have to play against sonic in this game.
 

FRiSKruns

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
500
Location
San Antonio, Texas
No, I don't miss his usmash, Sonic's Brawl Usmash was garbage, it didn't kill till like... 180% and that's assuming your opponents didn't just DI out. It also had a terrible 16 frame start-up and some moderate cooldown for a smash.

If there's moves that I miss/were better in brawl than in P:M that'd be his:

Spin Dash (Side-B) - since it has much more versatility in Brawl than it does in P:M, it had invincibility frames for frames 4-6, you could also do grounded and aerial spin shots from it, as well as do a vertical spin dash jump (which you could double jump cancel or spring out of) or shield cancel form a grounded position.

Uair - which had a set knockback on the first hit, which actually allowed for connecting into the 2nd at any % or position, assuming spaced appropriately (unlike its P:M Counterpart).

Fair - For its faster start-up and shield poking capabilities. (Although I don't miss the cooldown, the lack of spike, or the fact that it was possible to SDI below Sonic and land an uair etc;)

Utilt - For its safe platform pressure (although to be perfectly honest there *are* alternatives that fill the void for this one, and the Project: M Utilt is faster with much less cooldown), Shield-Poking Qualities, and KO capabilities at 150% or higher (although P:M Sonic doesn't really have the KO issues to the extent that Brawl Sonic has them imo)

Dsmash - for its IASA frames that allowed you to bait and punish attacks that were thought to be safe, as well its ability to *dodge* attacks, and increase its superior ability to cover landings. (Although, I don't miss its terrible 16 frame Start-up time)

Everything else is either better or the same really. No other complaints here.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I miss his Brawl Fair because it was my #1 approaching and edgeguarding tool (I absolutely love this move).
Also I miss Brawl Dsmash, because that was one of my favorite finishing moves and spot dodge punish.

I wish they didn't change that, with a better approach option from sh, the whole sonic metagame wouldn't be as much centralized about down b.

Apart from that people just absolutely suck against Sonic. Yes, he is annoying with his spins, but he is NOWHERE NEAR being broken as many people claim him to be. In a world where we have Fox, Falco, Sheik, Pit, etc. there is no need to nerf Sonic. The only thing I'd do is shorten how long you can charge down b in order to prevent spin camping. Also give him an approach option that is not spin 2 win.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Apart from that people just absolutely suck against Sonic. Yes, he is annoying with his spins, but he is NOWHERE NEAR being broken as many people claim him to be. In a world where we have Fox, Falco, Sheik, Pit, etc. there is no need to nerf Sonic. The only thing I'd do is shorten how long you can charge down b in order to prevent spin camping. Also give him an approach option that is not spin 2 win.

Sonic is not broken because he is too good, he is broken because he "breaks" standard game play (these often end up being synonymous, but not always like this case). Simply put, Sonic is not playing the same game as his opponent. He does not abide the standard rules of smash, particularly those based around stage positioning. When Sonic is your opponent, your character (blind picks, right?) is either able to interact with him or is not able to interact with him and that's basically all there is to it.

Now, you could say that it is wise to pick a character that can interact with Sonic if that is true, and I would agree with you. However, I do not think that enough of the cast can do this at this point. You could also make a strawman argument and say that Fox is also broken and I would agree with you. However, a much larger portion of the cast still has interaction with Fox since this was recognized early on about that particular character. The same could be said of Falco and Jigglypuff as they are normalized relative to the rest of the cast, or Ice Climbers and Olimar by tacit agreement (exclusion from the cast).

I don't think Sonic needs to be nerfed, I think he needs to be normalized. He should operate within the same bounds as the rest of the cast, particularly in terms of movement and immunity to standard means of stage control. As is, that is definitely not the case.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Well that point can be applied to quite a few characters. It sure applies to above mentioned characters. Especially Falco and IC. If Falco would be a character introduced in P:M think of the huge ****storm you would hear on the boards ("he breaks the game because he can control the whole stage with his lasers" "you can't move on the ground and are forced to use platforms" - same for ICs).
The reason people don't complain that much about it is because they got used to it.

There are also quite a few P:M characters that break standard gameplay (from the viewpoint of a Melee player).
Bowser with his super armor.
Snake with his mines, down b and set knockback throws.
Diddy with his Bananas and aerial grab.
Lucario with OHC/Magic series
Wario/Ivysaur with w/e they are doing all the time, I don't even know
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Well that point can be applied to quite a few characters. It sure applies to above mentioned characters. Especially Falco and IC. If Falco would be a character introduced in P:M think of the huge ****storm you would hear on the boards ("he breaks the game because he can control the whole stage with his lasers" "you can't move on the ground and are forced to use platforms" - same for ICs).
The reason people don't complain that much about it is because they got used to it.

There are also quite a few P:M characters that break standard gameplay (from the viewpoint of a Melee player).
Bowser with his super armor.
Snake with his mines, down b and set knockback throws.
Diddy with his Bananas and aerial grab.
Lucario with OHC/Magic series
Wario/Ivysaur with w/e they are doing all the time, I don't even know

Those examples don't break gameplay though, they only change what the interaction looks like. Sonic is different in that he voids interaction rather than changing it.

I don't think people disregard Falco because they got used to it, but rather because a large portion of the cast has been given some means to interact favorably with him. In Melee where this is not always the case, we actually do get the ****storm about Falco. I think this reinforces the point rather than invalidating it.
 

Planet Piss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
233
Location
Meridian, ID
Sonic is not broken because he is too good, he is broken because he "breaks" standard game play (these often end up being synonymous, but not always like this case). Simply put, Sonic is not playing the same game as his opponent. He does not abide the standard rules of smash, particularly those based around stage positioning. When Sonic is your opponent, your character (blind picks, right?) is either able to interact with him or is not able to interact with him and that's basically all there is to it.
There are so many grey areas with what you've said (I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but I've read it a couple times) that I don't know where to begin. I can't even respond to any of the individual points in your first paragraph because you just said words without explaining the "why" part. Why doesn't Sonic abide by the "standard rules of smash"? How is Sonic's stage positioning that vastly different from other characters? What does it mean for a character to be unable to interact with him? Most importantly, how can we definitively tell that a character is normalized with the Melee cast if he/she was never in Melee to begin with? Saying "yeah, that's close enough"?

Please, if you can, establish the rules of Smash, and list the specific elements of Sonic's gameplay/moveset that break the game for him and none of the Melee characters (or any of the other M characters if you feel that way as well).

In my region, the best players are beginning to be able to deal with Sonic quite well. It's a lot harder to fight players that, you know, understand that Sonic is really ****ing fast and you have to space your moves with respect to the distance that Sonic can travel over x amount of time. I've had trouble fighting King ****ing Free Dee Dee because the guy playing him kept edgeguarding me and spacing well. Just give it some time and practice and Sonic will probably begin to seem like he belongs here. He's not so annoying when you realize that his priority is so low that he has to compensate by being fast and powerful, which admittedly, might be too great a compensation.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
I agree a ton with the post above me, and have to say that he's not as indomitable as everyone seems to claim. My friend who plays Ganon is annoyed by him, but he has a good enough grasp of Sonic's speed and lack of priority and abuses it. Sonic seems like a character that's janky but not necessarily broken. People need to get used to the match up is all. Just from what I can tell he seems to be pretty easy to edge guard, and while his pressure is tricky, and can be very tight, it can be broken and reversed by a well places sex kick, or out of shield attack.
 

SnatoWhato

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
69
You guys wanna fight something broken? Try fighting someone who mains Shadow's PSA Hack over DK. I added and removed quite a few characters recently and they're awesome. But a few of the characters, Shadow being one of them, are cheap and annoying as HECK. But they aren't unbeatable. When my friend got good with Shadow, I considered removing him from my roster, because I just couldn't do anything against him, His neutral aerial has way too much range and priority, his Chaos Spear gives him Super Armor and he's impossible to meteor smash off the edge, because he teleports really far. Not to mention one of his taunts is Chaos Control and makes the gravity something like walking on the moon.. But after a few rounds, I learned how to deal with him. It required quite a bit of effort and patience on my part, but now Shadow isn't as big a problem for me anymore.

And don't even get me started on Sora.

I plan on doing reviews in the future on the PSAs I've tried. Even though some of them are pretty cheap, they're quite fun to use.

Anyway, I know those characters don't have any competitive value. lol
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
There are so many grey areas with what you've said (I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but I've read it a couple times) that I don't know where to begin. I can't even respond to any of the individual points in your first paragraph because you just said words without explaining the "why" part. Why doesn't Sonic abide by the "standard rules of smash"? How is Sonic's stage positioning that vastly different from other characters? What does it mean for a character to be unable to interact with him? Most importantly, how can we definitively tell that a character is normalized with the Melee cast if he/she was never in Melee to begin with? Saying "yeah, that's close enough"?

Please, if you can, establish the rules of Smash, and list the specific elements of Sonic's gameplay/moveset that break the game for him and none of the Melee characters (or any of the other M characters if you feel that way as well).

In my region, the best players are beginning to be able to deal with Sonic quite well. It's a lot harder to fight players that, you know, understand that Sonic is really ****ing fast and you have to space your moves with respect to the distance that Sonic can travel over x amount of time. I've had trouble fighting King ****ing Free Dee Dee because the guy playing him kept edgeguarding me and spacing well. Just give it some time and practice and Sonic will probably begin to seem like he belongs here. He's not so annoying when you realize that his priority is so low that he has to compensate by being fast and powerful, which admittedly, might be too great a compensation.
This has a lot of good points so I'll try to cover them in order.

Sonic breaks standard game play because he does not adhere to the standard rules of smash. Smash as a game is a "fighter" based on free movement and choice interactions based on that free movement. That free movement means many things once it is applied, such as character placement, move placement, the ability to remove practical options from your opponent, and so forth. As players, we use these tactics to develop interactions that are more favorable for us, or instead are relatively worse for our opponent, both are functionally similar. For example, with dashdancing, your primary goal is to keep your interactions potent while reducing the ability of the opponent to favorably interact with you by reducing his/her ability to place attacks on your character in a desirable way. This is why short dashdancing in place is fundamentally useless. All of the advanced technical inputs such as dashdancing, L canceling, wavedashing, pivoting, and many others are specifically built around the premise of free movement. This let's us think of smash as "Positioning The Game" if you will. All competitive games are positioning games really but that's a different discussion.

Specific to Sonic is the idea that the character's attributes make him largely imbalanced in this aspect while being arguably "rebalanced" in others (people have noted low priority as a counterpoint for example). This leads to a character that is extreme and polarizing in both aspects. His most notable quality, his run speed, means that he has the ability to choose when to attack in certain but common tournament scenarios such as fighting against a less mobile character or fighting on a large stage or both. His B moves, if not more moves than that, also means that he rarely has to worry about being pinned into a bad position such as a juggle, illegitimate combos, or basic platform traps. Depending on the character/stage combination that the Sonic player has to work with, sometimes the opponent simply will not have the means to interact favorably with Sonic (consider melee fox vs zelda), or that Sonic's ability to interact favorably with the opponent is overwhelmingly in his favor (consider melee sheik vs bowser). They are functionally the same in that the opponent can never win to the point of degeneracy. Now clearly a game like this is going to have some degenerate matches, even in a game like PM where the cast is heavily normalized to prevent them in large numbers. But this is where I'll make the assertion that Sonic has too many of these instances to be a healthy addition to the game.

And no, the "low priority" does not validate Sonic's flagrant ability to ignore what his opponent is attempting to do to him using the normal methods of interaction in this game based on positioning. Sonic's ability to choose when to attack is fundamentally imbalanced because it means that he can assume stage position in a way that his opponent never can. It's not that you have to wait to attack, but you get to wait to attack. This reframing of the interaction allows the Sonic player to mostly invalidate the low priority as negligible, as you really have the superior neutral game anyway so you're rarely forced to make unfavorable trades where the priority would matter. Of course, until that priority isn't negligible due to the opponent's character/stage combination. This means that sometimes (to my assertion, too often) Sonic will have an overwhelming and degenerate advantage on his opponent regardless of that player's ability if they are even mildly close. This warps the game around Sonic, and you can tell because Sonic's opponent is forced to throw out non-committal moves hoping that Sonic runs into them over and over. The game is polarizing, frustrating, and non-interactive. On the flip side, I have not yet seen matches where this is the case but I'm sure that Sonic's low priority makes him frustrating to play when that low priority means that Sonic has no good means of interaction. For example, I'm guessing that Sonic vs Sheik on Fountain of Dreams is absolutely miserable for the Sonic player and is equally frustrating. Either way, the character is just frustrating, either to play against or as. This is the predominant sign of a polarized character.

For further examples of this, you can watch the better Sonic players on youtube that take advantage of his polarized attributes when it is favorable to do so. My favorite example is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6t8Sou4Vc

This is not an example of the Sonic player being significantly better than his opponent, this is a degenerate match in which his opponent is a talented player but still has no real way to interact. A significant skill difference may be able to overcome this degeneracy to a point, but note that match 1 is on a fairly neutral stage and DK can cover ground pretty well in this game and it's still as degenerate as it is. Also note at the counterpick that the first two stages to be removed as the most polarizing based around Sonic's movement, the largest and smallest stages in the game. This is not a healthy character design.

As a Sonic player, your difficulty against DDD's spacing is much more indicative of your choices as a player than it is about character balance for this reason. As the game play continues to develop, these attributes of the polarized character can only become more apparent as players master the extent of the degeneracy since we've already concluded that no truly favorable method of interaction exists. There may be some minor progress to counteract Sonic's immunity to stage control, but for the most part that aspect of the character is much more likely to improve over time.


I agree a ton with the post above me, and have to say that he's not as indomitable as everyone seems to claim. My friend who plays Ganon is annoyed by him, but he has a good enough grasp of Sonic's speed and lack of priority and abuses it. Sonic seems like a character that's janky but not necessarily broken. People need to get used to the match up is all. Just from what I can tell he seems to be pretty easy to edge guard, and while his pressure is tricky, and can be very tight, it can be broken and reversed by a well places sex kick, or out of shield attack.

Abuse of his lack of priority means that the opponent is likely outplaying the Sonic player, especially if the character is something like Ganon. The character is broken, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the player knows how to take advantage of it. That can be overcome with dedicated learning and experience.

We can keep going on these ideas as you guys see fit. I would like some of the more experienced players like Reflex, Strongbad, and Leffen to add to this if you guys can.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
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Feb 10, 2005
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TheReflexWonder
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We can keep going on these ideas as you guys see fit. I would like some of the more experienced players like Reflex, Strongbad, and Leffen to add to this if you guys can.

You did a very good job of explaining it. I'm not sure there's much more to add without seeming nitpicky.

With the low endlag, his unparalleled ability to threaten large amounts of space, and multiple cancels available during his most mobile options, his best neutral position options mean that a huge chunk of the cast's only viable options for success against him involve running away at a large distance (as in, avoiding interaction altogether instead of letting Sonic completely control your approaches) or just throwing out moves in the hopes that Sonic will run into them. The former isn't something that (most) players actually want to do in any matchup (and their characters are often ill-equipped to do it), while the latter doesn't involve much thought and is entirely dependent on the Sonic making mistakes. It isn't the kind of gameplay we like to encourage. That isn't simply because it's boring; it's because Sonic has total control over the situation until he messes up, and because it's more like a last (and only) resort rather than it being a generally optimal strategy.

We try to encourage some kind of meaningful action; a lack thereof in something as ubiquitous as the neutral position is the kind of thing that many people (myself included) resent about Brawl and see as toxic and degenerative to most fighting games.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i mean, you can pause the match i linked at about 1:07 and see SB shielding halfway across the stage from sonic, and the sad part is that it's a reasonable thing to do given the circumstances. it's almost self-explanatory for us old heads.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
Agree with the posts above. My training partner mains Sonic, but I feel that I'm only winning because hes making a number of mistakes that would get him 4 stocked as any other character. I joke around that I'm afraid of when he actually learns to abuse Sonic, but looking at the character itself, its not really all that much of a joke.

It doesn't really seem that even shielding is reasonable... he has rather easy hit and run moves that are safe on shield (esp with a character like DK, but correct me if I'm wrong). Given his attributes, against a highest level player using Sonic... it seems there is literally no way to be in an advantageous situation against him.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
And just as a side note... Don't let newer players play Sonic... my friend seems to think he can run in with a move, like Sonic can, with characters like Pit and Ivy...

Bad learning.

ps. Ness>Sonic bwaha.
 

Planet Piss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
233
Location
Meridian, ID
To warn you, the following wall of text is basically in agreement with the things you said. I couldn't be helped in wanting clarification for the vagueness of your initial post, but it's all so clear to me now. It has been for some time, I just couldn't figure out what/why. I kind of hid from it as well. I suppose I needed some experienced players to help. I just don't want you to think that you typed all that for nothing.


For the record, and it's taken me a while, but I've been garnering a general growing hatred for Sonic as a character, though I couldn't specifically articulate why. I felt that each leap in improvement I've had as a player has been magnified by Sonic's aforementioned polarization; that even though my opponents were somewhat impatient with the character, I still didn't deserve winning all the time.

If I understood the wall of text above, then Sonic is broken because he focuses so hard on aspects of the game that polarize him to the point where he completely demolishes many relevant Smash/fighting game concepts (see: spacing, dash dancing, edgeguarding[which I have previously stated as doable, however only within player-player reads/predictions- which I will go over in a bit. You basically can't possibly cover all of his options], etc.). Being Sonic's opponent, one has to perform actions that, regardless of whether or not they are abusable to the point where Sonic loses, detract too far from the overall premise of smash (and moreover, fighting games) and shouldn't have to be used (or at least so frequently). Not to mention the aspects of Sonic's game that are abusable to the point where he completely eliminates features that are supposed to be parts of Smash as a game, some of which were previously mentioned.

Playing against Sonic is like trying to shoot skeet when the clay plates will shatter against your face and kill you if you miss. During a boxing match.

I switched mains to DK recently to prove to myself and others that I'm actually a good player (I've done the same with Fox) and not just winning because of Sonic. It's working very well, and while I'm familliar with Melee to a decent degree, I've come to understand, from Sonic's perspective, why he's broken.

I've seen lesser Sonics lose out of tournaments and I've insisted that all one has to do is play patiently and the MU is more doable, but I now understand that that's not the point. It's not that you can't deal with him, but more so that you shouldn't have to deal with a character like that in a game identified as a fighter. I've always been drawn to Sonic for his technical prowess, and not the cut-and-dry styles of most Sonics that include spinning and not much else.

The ends don't justify the means, however. I can't tell you how many times I've done serious damage just waiting for my opponent to jump up and fair or do ANYTHING with even a remote amount of lag. You can't even run away because Sonic's down B charge is way too fast for even Captain Falcon. You're forced to play Sonic's game the whole time no matter what (only exception I've seen thus far is Falco whom he can gimp like nobody's business). Sonic is even in charge when he's ****ing recovering; I've gotten so good at recovering aggressively that I've reverse gimped folk plenty of times. Pretending to sweetspot the ledge is my favorite way of opening up for large amounts of damage. I've gone as far as to recommend never trying to edgegaurd him because of the fact that you can literally never predict what the character (not the player) will do because of all those options. Oh yeah, and I timed out a Luigi on FD once.

I will never make the case that Sonic doesn't take skill to operate, (myself playing a fairly technical Sonic [I have a GF set with that previously mentioned DDD player which has a lot of delicious movements- yet to be uploaded]) that I've used to win pretty much every M tournament we've had since 2.1. In fact, Sonic's technical game is so vastly underdeveloped (anyone who's experimented with learning Sonic techs should realize this) that the Wizzrobe method, despite being extremely effective and retardedly easy, will lose demand as players begin understand the MU. Heavy technical play is inevitable. I mean, think of how good Wizz would be if he played his Sonic like (Analogy incoming) M2K's Sheik and not Drephen's?

Want to know why it's easy to win with Sonic? It's not the opponent, it's the Sonic. He doesn't have to aim his moves like everyone else, and I'm not just talking about homing attack. Down b is an extremely fast grounded/aerial attack that has a constantly refreshing hitbox and is used to auto-punish almost every single character. It's fully non-committal, jumps on-frame, and cancels immediately (in the air) into either any aerial, specials, or a WD hitbox that has increased hitstun.
All of his recovery options, if explored properly, create a character whom the opponents thereof canliterally not cover all options. Do they expect you to recover high? Down air immediately below the stage and take it from there. You can kick them in the head if they try to edgehog. Are they crouching above the stage and have you not used HA to recover in a while? Press B. Perfect spinshot->forward b = way too high above the stage for anyone to punish. And those aren't even a quarter of the tricks Sonic can use.

To make things succinct, here is a short list of Sonic things I now know are complete bull****:
-Vastness of recovery options including the distance over which he can travel offstage and the sheer aggressive nature thereof
-Negation of crouch cancel (I don't know if you guys know this but you can't CC sonic's spinning
-Spinning in general
-Ambiguously-timed spacing over which Sonic has full control (see: spin camping)
-Other things that others have mentioned earlier

Honestly, if Sonic's spin wasn't so good I could see him being less broken, but as it's been made clear to me, a single aspect of Sonic's game is enough to ruin the game for others.
 

SnatoWhato

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
69
"For example, I'm guessing that Sonic vs Sheik on Fountain of Dreams is absolutely miserable for the Sonic player and is equally frustrating."

This is SO true... I've got a friend that mains Sheik and his favorite stage (that isn't Final Destination) is Fountain of Dreams. Fighting him here with Sonic is a pain.
 
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