Anyone process the irony of Nintendo-as-a-whole's support for competitive play?

[Quillion]

Not too long ago, Nintendo apparently tried to get Melee unstreamed in its breakthrough run at EVO 2013, which according to a now-lost article (due to NotEnoughShaders going under), was a marketing issue. Since then, Nintendo has turned around and not only allowed that, but has gone forth and sponsored big competitive Smash events.

The irony of it all comes from Sakurai, the creator's, not-enthusiastic opinion on competitive play. His opinion went from "there needs to be no divide between skilled and casual play" in the Brawl days to "fine, you can play it that way, you happy now?" today. As the creator, though, it's not without justification. He did say it himself here:

Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players and it basically ended up becoming a Smash Bros. game for hardcore fighting fans. I personally regret that, because I originally intended the Smash Bros. series to be for players who couldn’t handle such highly skilled games.

He still believes that Smash should be a game where anyone can win, and considers the competitive scene nothing but a minor periphery that deserves minimal service at most.

And yet, Nintendo does not seem to be in line with his views by showing some very enthusiastic support towards competitive play, complete with Reggie sending a video letter of congratulations to all the Melee players at EVO 2014. Sure, Project M, but Nintendo's stance on game mods goes wayyyyyy back, you know.

Considering Sakurai has strongly hinted that he just wants to stop working on Smash and move on (see: his reluctance to patch the game beyond online tourney mode, Mewtwo, and stuff pre-announced), do you think Nintendo could make the next Smash Bros. a game that doesn't treat the game like a periphery? Could it be, ahem, better than Project M in this regard by virtue of it being made by a huge team of professional developers.

Just look to how Street Fighter got to where it was today. SF2 started out as a game any kid at the arcade could pop in a quarter and play (or buy one of the less-than-ideal console ports instead). Then when Capcom took notice of its metagame, they started to treat them as a target audience. We could go down a similar path now...

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You're mixing up Nintendo of America, Nintendo of Japan, and Sora Ltd. They're all different parties that have different opinions on the competitive scene. The one that's giving most of the support to the competitive scene is NoA, but they don't have any say on how the game is made. That is 100% under the jurisdiction of NoJ and Sora. NoA is only responsible for marketing.

 

[elliotnz]

My friend had an idea I like. Turn on/off the advanced mechanics. Everyone has fun

 

[Reila]

I have a feeling NoA is only supporting the competitive side because the game is still fresh and by doing that they can obviously get more sales for Smash 4. I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 is out of EVO next year, with only Melee being there, as usual.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I have a feeling NoA is only supporting the competitive side because the game is still fresh and by doing that they can obviously get more sales for Smash 4. I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 is out of EVO next year, with only Melee being there, as usual.

Let's be honest here: anyone who thinks Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 is delusional.

 

[Wulfy07]

While HypnoToad is correct about ownership, Nintendo loves to make money. The problem is NoJ doesn't need to make games to make money. They have money and choose to make games. NoA wants to make money through games because it only exists for that reason. So there is a bit of contention there, but it isn't real. NoA will make money through any game sold in the States, which will happen regardless of the future Smash.

As a note, Quillion, I strongly disagree with your point regarding SF4. I think that SF2 is a better game, just as MvC2 is much better than every iteration of MvC3. And those games are targeted to the "hardcore" audience which is, in my opinion, a mistake. Part of what makes competitive fighters so good is the existence of exploits and using them to your advantage. If those ideas are forcibly placed into a game in order to recreate the feel of an older game, it will turn out to be a mockery of the original that has not successfully evolved.

Personally, I hate melee. I think it's bad a game, and I do not think it is fun. However, it is a vastly superior to Project M, which attempts to mirror the mechanics. Much in the same way as described above, I think a "team of professionals" who try to make a smash for the "hardcore audience" would end up the same, and while people would probably play it, I don't think the game will end up as good. It hasn't evolved, it just tries to emulate mechanics that should no longer exist and instead be modified into better iterations that have their own exploit that make the game better. Unfortunately, franchising doesn't do that and we end up waiting for an entirely new game to come along and it has exploits that are fun, technical, and evolve the fighting game genre while previous franchises turn into a parody of their former glory.

Anyway, I am pretty sure mine is a minority opinion, but a counterpoint was probably worth mentioning even if slightly off-topic.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I have a feeling NoA is only supporting the competitive side because the game is still fresh and by doing that they can obviously get more sales for Smash 4. I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 is out of EVO next year, with only Melee being there, as usual.

Of course NoA is hoping to extract sales from Smash 4, like every other company hosting these competitions. That does not mean they won't stay for the long run though of they see a potential in competition. We've already seen with Pokemon that Nintendo is willing to go the long run if given the chance. Even if EVO doesn't adopt Smash 4, if Smash con truly is sponsored by them then I can see them pulling stunts in the long run. And the longer they hang with the competitive community maybe the more they'll convince their Japanese bosses to lighten up with us.

NoJ is the problem child here though, they're backed by old men with no idea of how the modern world works. Not only that, they have deep respect for Sakurai and won't go against his wishes unless his idea for Smash bombs completely and it's clear that Sakurai is very disconnected from the community. His idea of a what a competitive environment wants is very narrow And he makes sure to distance himself from us. Perhaps if Nintendo opens a door for competitors then maybe just maybe Sakurai will at least be more open to us.

 

[Quillion]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thinks Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 is delusional.

Actually, the idea of having two Smash games at EVO over, say, two SF games or two Mahvel games is already outrageous.

You're mixing up Nintendo of America, Nintendo of Japan, and Sora Ltd. They're all different parties that have different opinions on the competitive scene. The one that's giving most of the support to the competitive scene is NoA, but they don't have any say on how the game is made. That is 100% under the jurisdiction of NoJ and Sora. NoA is only responsible for marketing.

So what is going on over in Japan? We already know that Japan has a competitive Smash scene, but is NoJ not supporting that?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't see the complaint.
Sakurai directs the game the way he wants to and has been consistent with his goals for the series from the start.
Pokemon could be a far less casual game if it wanted to be, but it isn't, it doesn't have to be, and there is nothing wrong with that choice.

Smash is also suitable enough for competition that who really cares unless you're jaded?

 

[wedl!!]

So what is going on over in Japan? We already know that Japan has a competitive Smash scene, but is NoJ not supporting that?

if they were you'd think someone would've said something by now

 

[Iron Kraken]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thinks Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 is delusional.

Smash 4 already has surpassed 1000+ entrants for EVO, and is trailing only USF4 and Melee in that regard.

Just something to keep in mind if you're going to throw out words like "delusional."

 

[LancerStaff]

*sigh*

The streaming thing was done by Nintendo's overzealous lawyers and not Sakurai.

Sakurai always has had a somewhat narrow vision for Smash: A fighting game that anybody can play and understand. It's only natural he'd be upset when 64 and Melee completely failed as far as the whole reason the games were made goes. Brawl too, but not as much. And I don't think any new developer for Smash will spit in the face of what Smash is supposed to be, much less make large changes without the executives putting an early end to it. We're not getting a sequel to Melee, get your head out of the clouds.

NoA is only supporting competitive play because of sales. I don't think they're going to just stop next year, but I don't see them supporting this up until the next Smash either.

SF and SSB are in completely different situations. Capcom saw the competitive players and marketed the game to them for a profit, whereas Smash was explicitly created to be the opposite. And honestly, Smash would of flopped if it was designed to be competitive first. Nintendo expected it to anyway because it was a fighting game disguised as a party game.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

*sigh*

The streaming thing was done by Nintendo's overzealous lawyers and not Sakurai.

Sakurai always has had a somewhat narrow vision for Smash: A fighting game that anybody can play and understand. It's only natural he'd be upset when 64 and Melee completely failed as far as the whole reason the games were made goes. Brawl too, but not as much. And I don't think any new developer for Smash will spit in the face of what Smash is supposed to be, much less make large changes without the executives putting an early end to it. We're not getting a sequel to Melee, get your head out of the clouds.

NoA is only supporting competitive play because of sales. I don't think they're going to just stop next year, but I don't see them supporting this up until the next Smash either.

SF and SSB are in completely different situations. Capcom saw the competitive players and marketed the game to them for a profit, whereas Smash was explicitly created to be the opposite. And honestly, Smash would of flopped if it was designed to be competitive first. Nintendo expected it to anyway because it was a fighting game disguised as a party game.

Who knows? Maybe NoA will see a profit in a long term stay with the Smash community like they did with the Pokemon community.

I don't think it's out of the question for Nintendo in thus trying time of their business life to see a worth in cultivating more long term customer support with a large community dedicated to the game series.

Pokemon is by and far their biggest seller and the community for that series seems quite tight knit and there always seem to be new kids being introduced at a furious pace.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thinks Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 is delusional.

You are blind, sir... Or ignorant.. Or just delusional yourself. Or just don't want to accept the fact that it's a great game.

 

[LancerStaff]

Who knows? Maybe NoA will see a profit in a long term stay with the Smash community like they did with the Pokemon community.

I don't think it's out of the question for Nintendo in thus trying time of their business life to see a worth in cultivating more long term customer support with a large community dedicated to the game series.

Pokemon is by and far their biggest seller and the community for that series seems quite tight knit and there always seem to be new kids being introduced at a furious pace.

It really depends on if Smash 4 can keep a scene going, I guess. The biggest problem I see right now is how different the official and standard rulesets are. FD only vs 10+ stages. Customs vs no customs. Even Sudden Death has an out-of-game rule in the standard. Smash is being balanced around it's own, internal ruleset and is creating problems for the standard, such as the Bowsercide rule and how a good portion of top-tier characters vastly prefer Smashville to FD.

Gamefreak's rules are widely followed and aren't at odds with the almost the entire competitive community. Smogon would be the closest thing to our standard play, but it's not nearly as all-encompassing. GF basically made and owns competitive Pokemon, while Nintendo has virtually no say in competitive Smash.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It really depends on if Smash 4 can keep a scene going, I guess. The biggest problem I see right now is how different the official and standard rulesets are. FD only vs 10+ stages. Customs vs no customs. Even Sudden Death has an out-of-game rule in the standard. Smash is being balanced around it's own, internal ruleset and is creating problems for the standard, such as the Bowsercide rule and how a good portion of top-tier characters vastly prefer Smashville to FD.

Gamefreak's rules are widely followed and aren't at odds with the almost the entire competitive community. Smogon would be the closest thing to our standard play, but it's not nearly as all-encompassing. GF basically made and owns competitive Pokemon, while Nintendo has virtually no say in competitive Smash.

Well Nintendo's differing ruleset before usually has to do with those tournaments being used to advertise the game as a whole (also our meta has been adopting customs so I see no issue there) and Nintendo has been hands off when it comes to the rule sets of the tourneys they sponsored such as Apex and EVO so I don't think they'll have a problem adapting to our rules when they know they have nothing to benefit from changing the rules so wildly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not too long ago, Nintendo apparently tried to get Melee unstreamed in its breakthrough run at EVO 2013, which according to a now-lost article (due to NotEnoughShaders going under), was a marketing issue. Since then, Nintendo has turned around and not only allowed that, but has gone forth and sponsored big competitive Smash events.

The irony of it all comes from Sakurai, the creator's, not-enthusiastic opinion on competitive play. His opinion went from "there needs to be no divide between skilled and casual play" in the Brawl days to "fine, you can play it that way, you happy now?" today. As the creator, though, it's not without justification. He did say it himself here:



He still believes that Smash should be a game where anyone can win, and considers the competitive scene nothing but a minor periphery that deserves minimal service at most.

And yet, Nintendo does not seem to be in line with his views by showing some very enthusiastic support towards competitive play, complete with Reggie sending a video letter of congratulations to all the Melee players at EVO 2014. Sure, Project M, but Nintendo's stance on game mods goes wayyyyyy back, you know.

Considering Sakurai has strongly hinted that he just wants to stop working on Smash and move on (see: his reluctance to patch the game beyond online tourney mode, Mewtwo, and stuff pre-announced), do you think Nintendo could make the next Smash Bros. a game that doesn't treat the game like a periphery? Could it be, ahem, better than Project M in this regard by virtue of it being made by a huge team of professional developers.

Just look to how Street Fighter got to where it was today. SF2 started out as a game any kid at the arcade could pop in a quarter and play (or buy one of the less-than-ideal console ports instead). Then when Capcom took notice of its metagame, they started to treat them as a target audience. We could go down a similar path now...

Nintendo had a miscommunication problem with it's legal area which is why they were told no on that front, so no it wasn't Nintendo directly.

Sakurai likes Smash at a more casual level but he still catered to a competitive audience more in this series than past ones, otherwise why would they give a single care about the GameCube adapter, replays, keeping your records for online play with win % or listening to remove tripping, airdodge issues, pivot techs...I could go on.

Balance patches were only said to be not planned right now, at least compared to Mewtwo, miiverse stage and tournament mode.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You are blind, sir... Or ignorant.. Or just delusional yourself. Or just don't want to accept the fact that it's a great game.

I never said it was a bad game; on the contrary, I love Smash 4. But the FGC is already mad enough that there are two Smash games at EVO. EVO probably won't want to risk pissing them off further, and next year will only include the Smash game which brings in more viewers and is not as controversial. This happens to be Melee.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well Nintendo's differing ruleset before usually has to do with those tournaments being used to advertise the game as a whole (also our meta has been adopting customs so I see no issue there) and Nintendo has been hands off when it comes to the rule sets of the tourneys they sponsored such as Apex and EVO so I don't think they'll have a problem adapting to our rules when they know they have nothing to benefit from changing the rules so wildly.

I'm not talking about the advertising tournaments, I'm talking about for Glory. It's like how Smogon is banning all the Megas and other new stuff: They're playing the game in a way that the devs simply don't care about. Sakurai thinks customs, and custom characters like Miis, are just-for-fun cheats. When they decide to balance the game it's probably just going to unhinge our standard ruleset even more. Sakurai is supporting competitive play, but it's his competitive play and not ours.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm not talking about the advertising tournaments, I'm talking about for Glory. It's like how Smogon is banning all the Megas and other new stuff: They're playing the game in a way that the devs simply don't care about. Sakurai thinks customs, and custom characters like Miis, are just-for-fun cheats. When they decide to balance the game it's probably just going to unhinge our standard ruleset even more. Sakurai is supporting competitive play, but it's his competitive play and not ours.

Sakurai doesn't really care. He based competition from what he knows of competition which is little. He even admits that there are elements of the game that frustrates competitors. Which is why Nintendo has been hands off when it comes to our rules.

GF has been with the competition since the near beginning. So it makes sense their rules are more in tune with the competitive.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai doesn't really care. He based competition from what he knows of competition which is little. He even admits that there are elements of the game that frustrates competitors. Which is why Nintendo has been hands off when it comes to our rules.

GF has been with the competition since the near beginning. So it makes sense their rules are more in tune with the competitive.

I don't think he would of hired Namco if he wasn't for the fact that they understand fighting games. The decision for FD only wasn't based on the meme, but because of simple facts. First, FD was the most common stage on Brawl's wifi. Second, balancing for one stage is infinitely easier then two or more. And third, for Glory's rules would be much simpler with just one stage.

The stage striking system is flawed because it favors characters who do better with platforms when the game was designed to be devoid of them. People say that FD is degenerate because of camping... And yet all we see are Sheiks and Diddys offline. Online it's Shiek, ZSS, Captain Falcon, and Ness. Only two have decent projectiles. Maybe we could find a middle ground and make a few more FDs legal starters or whatever you want to call it.

I would understand the "one stage is boring" complaints if people actually played on more then SV once you got out of Glory. And everybody just complains if anything besides FD, BF and SV are legal. It's all just ridiculous.

 

[Quillion]

Nintendo had a miscommunication problem with it's legal area which is why they were told no on that front, so no it wasn't Nintendo directly.

Sakurai likes Smash at a more casual level but he still catered to a competitive audience more in this series than past ones, otherwise why would they give a single care about the GameCube adapter, replays, keeping your records for online play with win % or listening to remove tripping, airdodge issues, pivot techs...I could go on.

Balance patches were only said to be not planned right now, at least compared to Mewtwo, miiverse stage and tournament mode.

Considering he knows about all of the exploits and other techniques, it's a minimal service at best. He still treats competitive like a periphery and believes that treating them as anything more than that will be off-putting to the majority of fans.

Also, he made it clear when he left HAL Labs that he dislikes having to work on sequels. Could you imagine how he feels about working on a game he considers "done" instead of moving on and doing other things?

I never said it was a bad game; on the contrary, I love Smash 4.

Could've been less rude, though. Trust me, I know.

 

[LancerStaff]

Considering he knows about all of the exploits and other techniques, it's a minimal service at best. He still treats competitive like a periphery and believes that treating them as anything more than that will be off-putting to the majority of fans.

Also, he made it clear when he left HAL Labs that he dislikes having to work on sequels. Could you imagine how he feels about working on a game he considers "done" instead of moving on and doing other things?

Because it would be off-putting to the average fans. Smash is supposed to be simple and easy. When casual Melee was in it's prime, competitive Melee had just begun. Had Wavedashing been advertised out of the box then the game would of did much worse. It would of been just for hardcores, and there was no hardcore scene at that point. Smash 64 had just spent the past few years ridiculed by the FGC, and then suddenly it supports them and flips off the original fans? How in the world would that of went well?

He dislikes sequels, but he also likes to see that they're done right. HAL had already proven that they can make a good Kirby game without him before he left. And now RtDL is considered to be the best in the series. Smash has only been lead by Sakurai so far, and there's nobody like him at Nintendo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Considering he knows about all of the exploits and other techniques, it's a minimal service at best. He still treats competitive like a periphery and believes that treating them as anything more than that will be off-putting to the majority of fans.

Also, he made it clear when he left HAL Labs that he dislikes having to work on sequels. Could you imagine how he feels about working on a game he considers "done" instead of moving on and doing other things?



Could've been less rude, though. Trust me, I know.

He really doesn't that though, while he might not prefer it he wants everyone to enjoy smash. He's not trying to undermined anyone with smash 4.

The rest is true, but then again you need to consider he wants to one up a past game. Can you imagine an even larger cast with more customs and more modes with more expectations? That would be hard.

He's not a fan of sequels that is true but again what's the issue with this and Smash 4? They are embracing it all minus PM for legal reasons.

 

[Zzuxon]

*sigh*
Sakurai always has had a somewhat narrow vision for Smash: A fighting game that anybody can play and understand. It's only natural he'd be upset when 64 and Melee completely failed as far as the whole reason the games were made goes.

... What?
I played Smash 64 and Melee before I had even the most remote inkling of competitive play being a thing.
I could play and understand them, and they were some of the best games I'd ever played up to that point in my life. They were extraordinarily successful at achieving those goals.

 

[Solo Popo]

"Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players and it basically ended up becoming a Smash Bros. game for hardcore fighting fans. I personally regret that, because I originally intended the Smash Bros. series to be for players who couldn’t handle such highly skilled games."

As a former Melee/Brawl player, I can't help but feel utterly betrayed by these words. But that's been the theme with Nintendo for a long time: disparaging it's most devoted fans. Nintendo, I love you, but **** you all the same. There is/was so much passion for Smash's competitive scene. Sakari complains that he doesn't want his game to be like other highly skilled fighters, but he doesn't realize what he has. Smash is so much more than those fighting game's he's referring too. Smash is arguably the most unique competitive game there is. Not capitlizing financially on that much passion, is frankly just stupid. At least NoA realizes that. Sakari needs to get his head out of his ass.

 

[Quillion]

"Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players and it basically ended up becoming a Smash Bros. game for hardcore fighting fans. I personally regret that, because I originally intended the Smash Bros. series to be for players who couldn’t handle such highly skilled games."

As a former Melee/Brawl player, I can't help but feel utterly betrayed by these words. But that's been the theme with Nintendo for a long time: disparaging it's most devoted fans. Nintendo, I love you, but **** you all the same. There is/was so much passion for Smash's competitive scene. Sakari complains that he doesn't want his game to be like other highly skilled fighters, but he doesn't realize what he has. Smash is so much more than those fighting game's he's referring too. Smash is arguably the most unique competitive game there is. Not capitlizing financially on that much passion, is frankly just stupid. At least NoA realizes that. Sakari needs to get his head out of his ***.

I agree. I mean, what's wrong with using stuff like wavedashing and all of the other "sliding" techs and developing that into a new basic input mechanic that does it all? A solution that both appeases both the need for more depth and the need for simpler controls on both sides.

I hate both this competitive extremism (who demands that the game must have all difficult techs) and casual extremism (who demands that the game has to be as simple as possible).

 

[LimitCrown]

How would the concept of a wavedash button work when wavedashing is basically air-dodging toward the ground in Melee?

 

[Shaya]

I don't think these threads lead anywhere positive very often, similar threads have been posted in by many of the same faces we already see, so it is kinda repetitious.

What we get out of competitive smash has a lot to do with the eSport push and whether or not Nintendo supports us, at the very least they aren't holding us back.