Event - Apex 2015 APEX 2014 Ruleset Proposal: Timer Change

[.selebu]

Dear Alex Strife and whoever reads this,

please consider changing the timer for APEX 2014 from 8 minutes to 10 minutes!
After witnessing the crazy timeout between ADHD and Zero at SKTAR 2 I think more people will share my opinion that timeouts shouldn't happen.
Of course removing the timer all together is not going to work, but 10 minutes does not seem like an unreasonable amount. The extra two minutes would often eliminate the thought of going for a timeout. The match between ADHD and Zero wouldn't have ended with that incredible stupid last second hit. (Even though it was hype) I think it would have been better on a competitive standpoint if the match would have continued normally, instead of Zero opting for the timeout.

Japan plays with 10 minutes.
Parts of Europe play with 10 minutes.

Please consider this.
Thanks for reading.

 

[Lord Chair]

Words of wisdom.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Support this!

 

[Pheta Ray]

Supporting this all the way.

 

[False]

I'm iffy on this.. @_@;

It can either deter people from going for time outs, or we'll soon be seeing 30 minute sets.

 

[xDD-Master]

Support +1

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

Kinda iffy, but more on the side of support, so support.

 

[.selebu]

I understand that sets could take a lot longer with this. However it doesn't need to be that way. It could also be that sets that might have gone to timeout finish a little earlier than 8 minutes now. (coulda woulda shoulda...)
For example after 7 minutes in a match with already high percentage someone could think "okay I might have a chance to timeout my opponent if I play this smart" and depending on matchup might even achieve it. If there are still 3 minutes on the clock no one would opt for the timeout. They might play more aggressively and the kill happens earlier. It could also be the case that they still play defensively and the match continues for more than 8 minutes, but the match would continue the way it should be.

I don't see many matches reaching 10 minutes. It would mean for both players to play defensively right from the beginning. But yeah, it still is the biggest downside to this proposal.

 

[WindMajor]

If you think it's better that matches play out normally, then remove the timer. That will for sure deter people from aiming for the time out, because it will be physically impossible for them to do so. Extending the timer by two minutes is NOT an optimal solution for deterring people away from time-outs. Extending the timer will not change the mindset of the player who has decided that his best option is to go for time. As long as a time-out is an available option and within reach, players will use it to win. Extending the timer will at most make time-outs more difficult and/or less frequent, but let's be real, it's not like time-outs are so frequent that they plague our game. Like, if you wanted to remove everything that plagues our game, start with Metaknight, then move to time-outs. Seriously.

And now that I've established that we should be talking seriously, let's talk about all the beauty to be found in time-outs. Some of the most intense and exciting moments in a tournament can be found within the final plays of a game going to time (see: CT Zero vs. ADHD at SKTAR 2, M2K vs. Otori at Apex 2013, Speed vs. DSF at MLG DC). CT Zero vs. ADHD was great. Everybody was shocked when they saw that final DSmash. Some people laughed. Some people cried. I took the liberty of sifting through all the SKTAR 2 videos and discovered that CT Zero vs. ADHD is the most watched set (4,184 views atm), followed by Seibrik vs. Salem (3,763 views atm). People look that video up on Youtube JUST to see the ending. We have snapshots of the set posted on our forums with dozens of likes attached to them. That set is practically synonymous with SKTAR 2 right now. It's ****ing great.

There's nothing wrong with a time-out from a competitive standpoint. A lot of the most popular sports end through time-outs (Basketball, Soccer, Football, etc.). We once established that time-outs should be a secondary win condition in Smash, and anybody who supports a 10 minute timer agrees with this notion too. Matches end normally all the time in Smash. What's wrong with a little variety to spice things up?

 

[xDD-Master]

^ have you ever been part of a metagame where 10 minutes is used?
I am living in Germany and we have been using 8 in the beginning but changed to 10, for the explained reasons. And in fact, there still arent many matches that reach the 8 min timer.

At the tournament last week I had a match (Mario vs Lucas Low Tiers) that took 8 1/2 minutes and I was SO GLAD that it didnt go to time, but we had 30 seconds more to play, because it wouldve been really sad if that epic match ended with a timeout. Neither of us was playing for a timeout, we both just played savely, that's why it took so long, but it was intense and felt really good when it finally ended with a kill, and not a timeout.

It's true that the average match goes longer with an 8 minute timer, because one of the player starts aiming for timeouts around the 6-7 minute mark, while they wouldnt in a 10 minute timer environment. 10 Minutes is better than 8. It also goes hand in hand with the human preference of beautiful numbers (5, 10, 15... or 4 stocks 8 minutes, 2 minutes per stocks), 3 stocks 8 mins feels arbitrary, and in fact, we only use 8 minutes because of melee. I am not saying this is an important reason, but actually, at the beginning of brawl, there were no real discussion on what is the best timer.

I am not saying that 10 minutes is the best solution (Subjective it is to me), but it CLEARLY is better than 8 minutes. Timeouts are OK, but as we agreed it shouldnt be the first win condition to win by stocks. Therefore timeouts should only happen in rare cases. 10 minutes is perfect.

 

[WindMajor]

It's different strokes for different folks, but you aren't exactly explaining what 10 minute matches do that 8 minute matches don't. Time-outs already do happen in rare cases. Time-outs are already a secondary win condition. You have goals and expectations for your rule change, but adding 2 minutes won't solve them. The OP acknowledged it too when he wrote the word "often" and not "always". It just satisfies you to have extra time to finish a match, which is fine (we do want our players to enjoy themselves after all), but trying to fix what isn't broken by potentially breaking something that was never broken to begin with isn't exactly the best approach, especially when it's not guaranteed to work. The status quo is good enough.

And no, my scene played with an 8 minute timer before it died.

 

[xDD-Master]

The status quo is good enough.

No it's not when matches that shouldnt go to time go to time. which happens way less frequenently than with 8 minutes.
Matches that take 8-9 Minutes are pretty normal (I have seen some since we use 10 minute timer), while you wont see many matches that go beyond that. (9-10 Minutes). Actually I have never seen matches longer than 9 minutes when it didnt end in an timeout, where one of the players was aiming for a timeout from the very beginning. But I have seen some matches that took 8-9 minutes and wouldve ended in a timeout, even though they shouldnt.

10 minutes is perfect, it lets most of the campy matches finish early enough to not go to time, while it still gives us a limit, so matches won't take forever.
And let us be serious, who cares about 0.1% that go to time with 10 minute timer, while we can give the 1% matches that go to time with 8 minutes a normal ending. 8 minutes makes timeouts easier (They happen more often) and makes matches that shouldnt go to time, go to time.

Now you pls tell me, why 10 minutes is worse than 8 minutes.

Even if 10 minutes is just a slight improvment, it still is worth considering, especially since pressing two times to the right on the timer to make it go from 8 to 10 isnt that big of a challenge if you ask me. (If you use default settings hacks, you dont even need to care about this anyway).

 

[Gardex]

9 minutes tho

Join the future

 

[Osennecho]

Extending the timer will at most make time-outs more difficult and/or less frequent, but let's be real, it's not like time-outs are so frequent that they plague our game. Like, if you wanted to remove everything that plagues our game, start with Metaknight, then move to time-outs. Seriously.

QFT. Although one could argue MK>ICs>Time outs.
While we are at it I have a suggestion. 3 minute timers. Why the **** ***** you say? Because #Free Puff, #Puff for top tier, #New Meta.

 

[WindMajor]

No it's not when matches that shouldnt go to time go to time. which happens way less frequenently than with 8 minutes.

Now you pls tell me, why 10 minutes is worse than 8 minutes.

Because matches that go to time when they aren't supposed to are better than matches that don't go to time when they really should.

Also because 8 minutes is hard enough to plan for. We're still having trouble ending nationals before midnight in 2013. That's alarming. The proper step forward would be to find ways to cut time, not add time.

 

[southpaw]

setting the time to 10 minutes is a horrible idea. anyone that thinks is speeds up the game only pay attention to mks timing out chars, and are under the belief that mks will choose not run the clock for 2 more minutes. now in general this is kinda true in some ways(even tho I've still evidence of mk planking chars for extended time without even using the ledge), however you guys are not thinking about the entire cast. I guess you could argue that most other mus that go to time regularly are "rare cases" since the only mu's you see in tourney is mk vs (insert char here), but when I think about rulings I like to take the entire cast into consideration evenly not just metaknight. not sure who has exp with 10 min timers in tourney (I do) but so far its just been EU players, and sorry guys you already play pretty aggro in general timeouts likely have little effect in your regions.

Characters that will go to still go time with a 10 min timer are basically the chars that have trouble killing. now honestly anyone can play any mu and go to time if they want to, but the main ones would probably be (wario, icies, toon link, peach, diddy, sonic, yoshi, damn near ever low tier) Now some of these chars will go to time cuz of how they play since they have trouble killing and their only viable way to win is to play safe until they kill and they keep playing safe in order to rack up dmg and not die (tl diddy peach sonic yoshi). Wario is actually buffed by adding time to the timer and will likely play to time regardless in order to make use of every possible waft he can get. Icies with time are capable of always making comebacks as it only takes them one punish and idk 15ish seconds to take off a stock? Literally if you knew you had 5 mins to land one punish to make the game even again wouldnt you take your time? Its literally just basic playing to win and using the tools given to you in my opinion.

And I personally have played in tourney with 10 mins, and I've had games go past 8 mins regularly and I've complained the entire time, you could say oh its becuase you are toon link or you are camping blah blah. but its not even that its just how the mu's work and they literally will go on for much longer than 8 mins. And thats every mu for toon link or peach or other similar chars. Doesn't matter if you're playing chars that can kill like oli or snake the game is still very likely to go to time if they players are playing safe and are on equal skill levels. I've even played a match where i didn't lose my first stock till the 6 minute mark, and the other person was at 1 stock, but refused to approach and make the match faster. I've watched and heard of countless time outs from wario in tourneys, and I'm certain that if he had 2 more minutes to get 1 or 2 more wafts he would use it. I've watched plenty of crew battles where the matches go over 8 mins where ppl will plank with any character becuase there is no longer a timer to force an approach and no lgl to keep you from abusing the ledge.

From a TO perspective I would never choose to make the game longer than it already is. I hope others think the same

 

[azzucips]

Turn down timer to 6 minutes, and if the game times-out, then re-do the entire match. Go!

 

[SFA Smiley]

I don't think it would fix anything. I think the overall time spent on the 10 minute timeouts would defeat the purpose.

Removing the timer actually DOES seem like the better option but I don't even wanna risk watching zero uair at the ledge for 15 minutes

I say just keep the timer where it's at. Timeouts happen. And they often get super hype.

Just ban sonic so nobody has to hear his stupid rev up sound anyway

 

[-DR3W-]

Just ban sonic so nobody has to hear his stupid rev up sound anyway

Truest ****ing statement on this thread.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Don't know how I feela bout this. Last year's Apex ran smoothly and still wasn't over until 4:30 am. Do we really want to add more time to that?

 

[Ussi]

I'd much rather see 2 stocks 8 minutes than 3 stock 10 minutes

 

[CyberZixx]

Because that is exactly what Brawl needs, encouragement to take even longer.

 

[OAM]

I'm curious as to what the final ruleset will be, and with good reason.

I'm a TO who runs a fairly successful, but newish bi-monthly event (we've had 20+ for Brawl/P:M singles the past 2 tournaments). We have always run 8 minute timer, and not once have I seen a match go to time.

 

[Tesh]

The 3 timeouts I saw on stream involved toon link vs metaknight in pools (they were on fresh 2nd stocks 4 minutes in) and the guy who planked for 3 minutes when he was down by 4 stocks in doubles. Do you really think Zero isn't going to camp his ass off with more time.

Lower the LGL for MK some more or something. Don't make this game even more painful to watch. Its a legit win condition, just don't make it too easy to pull off and you are fine.

 

[WindMajor]

Change the LGL for MK from 35 to 1. No MK will ever let the game go to time.

 

[Doomolish]

I say change it to 6 mins.

 

[smashmachine]

LGL to 25/30?

 

[Mew2King]

LGL is a stupid way to auto-lose. It's the timer that needs to be changed. I've been saying 10 minutes for years but no one will listen. This actually DISCOURAGES timeouts because it's much harder to succeed at winning that way.

 

[WindMajor]

Congratulations on beating your opponent, but according to the rules right here you played like a f*****, so we're gonna take that win of yours away and give it to your opponent who totally deserved his loss.

 

[Luigi player]

Winning by time isn't legit, I'm sorry.

There, I said it.

+1 for no timer at all!

 

[Marc]

For all the people knocking 10 minutes before they tried it because of hypothetical doom scenarios, consider that it works just fine in regions where it has been implemented. The difference is marginal because it just does not affect most matches, but on average it seems to agree better with slow matchups and matches that play out normally, but where timing out the opponent becomes a consideration at the 6-7 minute mark because of the looming clock. Sometimes it will make a matchup run over 8 minutes, sometimes it will discourage it, tournaments don't take longer in my experience. Chances are outlier matchups and players might need even more time still, but in that case we should raise the clock for Melee to 20 minutes because of Armada vs HBox. You don't build a ruleset around extremes, people searching for a timeout might still get it, but under the assumption that most people want to see games end with kills and play characters perfectly capable of doing so in a timely manner, raising the timer a bit does seem like an improvement.

EDIT: Also, the constant jabs at MK are cute, but how often is going for timeouts even a winning strategy for the character anymore? I don't know a single top level MK who has it at the forefront of their mind, as they typically can apply pressure just fine and camping from the start gets needlessly scary against characters with large payoffs and superior (projectile) camping. It mostly occurs naturally vs characters like ICs and Diddy because they make no effort to approach themselves and even then the match is usually at the last stock + percent when it happens, meaning it wouldn't be an easy or realistic option with more time on the clock.

 

[Tesh]

^uh....but they ARE talking about extremes. Timeouts are still relatively rare in top level play.

Even considering that, the timer actually forces aggression out of campy players. Giving them more time just turns this **** into starcraft.

 

[BLU2]

I think removing the timer isn't the greatest idea. for one, I use the timer to know when the cloud is coming in yoshi's story. second, I don't see whats wrong with time-outs. however it seems that most of you are brawl players so maybe the timer should be extended for you guys tho I think 8:00 is perfectly fine for melee

EDIT: didn't even notice this was a brawl thread. nvm LOL

 

[Metakill]

Brawl metagame needs to be faster, a possible 30 minutes set is terrible. Even Brawl is kind of considered for CEO 2014, with this it will bad for brawl lol. But in real talk and since I'm just a melee player who likes watching brawl, two more minutes of camping sounds bad lol

PS: Wyatt would still win the match with 10 minutes /Kappa

 

[Dekillsage]

I don't know how having 2 more minutes will encourage players to be less defensive and more aggressive. Players now aren't playing to time out from the start of the match, they're playing to not lose. You do this by playing as safe as possible, and MK is a character who determines the pace of a match. I don't know about you, but when Zero was camping ADHD for minutes at a time when he was down, ADHD had to wait because if he would go in he'd just lose to zero and potentially die himself. Players have no problem waiting, and adding more time wont make them approach when they're down.

You say winning by timeout is dumb, but at nationals people don't like to lose. They will wait those 10 minutes if it improves their chances of winning. You remove the timer and whats stopping MK from waiting every time he's down? Why would Toon Link players ever have to commit to anything when they have more time to work with? You think people are beyond fighting IC's for 10 minutes straight every single match? The clock itself doesn't cause people to go for timeouts, not until the very last minute of a match. It tells a player whether or not they have to make a move, but that only matters at the last minute. These matches that go to time all the time you say would have ended normally 10 minutes, but why would you think that? What about them having 2 more minutes made them want to approach and lose? Nothing.

If 8 minutes do anything its that it makes players who are down have to make a move at the 7 minute mark. If you went to time and lost because of it sucks to be you. No one told you to stall for 7 minutes and play a slow neutral game. I don't care if people can win normally with more time, I don't want them to have more time.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

You want to make this game potentially slower....no

 

[Orion*]

If you think it's better that matches play out normally, then remove the timer. That will for sure deter people from aiming for the time out, because it will be physically impossible for them to do so.

Your logic in infallible.

 

[Tesh]

Some people will camp it out for the slightest sliver of making an immense comeback. I know there are people who will just plank forever (no timer =no LGL so why stop?).

Lowering the LGL helps all the same (well it doesn't really stop toon links or sonics, but they suck and good characters will knock them dead in 5 minutes flat).

I still don't see how this game can survive when Smash 4 comes out. Its going to be impossible to run as something other than a main event with how long it takes to play.

 

[Delta-cod]

To be honest, I'm one of those players who, if behind and given adequate time on the clock, will definitely take his time to make the comeback. People aren't (or shouldn't) just be playing to jump into their own doom, unless the clock forces them to.

Please give me 2 extra minutes to make my comeback. plz.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you let this yoshi have more time it will be the end for all of us
nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!