Are Dash Attacks Bad?

[HdTyvek]

While watching high level play, i almost never see anyone use a dash attack. is there a reason? are they just simply bad? or do they have their place as well? thoughts?

 

[Kadano]

Fox, Falco, Sheik and Peach have great dash attacks that are useful for tech chasing and punishing. Other characters, like Marth and Captain Falcon, have rather bad dash attacks that are rarely good choices.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

In every iteration of the game I've played (barring maybe 64, can't recall because it's been a long time), dash attacks almost always lead to getting punished. They either don't do enough knockback to push the enemy our of your threat zone, have a long end lag that usually grants your opponent a free hit, or they're predictable enough to be shielded, which usually leads to you getting grabbed. Generally, it's the worst way to approach your opponent, but it has its uses (and some characters can utilize it far better than others). They're more useful at high percents when you can guarantee your opponent will be shoved too far away to retaliate, but you still want to reserve it for a time when they're off-balance so they don't just shield-grab you.

This is actually one of my worst habits. I'm still trying to train myself not to approach this way, and right now I think this is the biggest thing that hurts my game!

 

[HdTyvek]

Even just messing around i realized marth's dash is terrible, and i did see how laggy they really are, but falco and fox did seem to have a little better. im in the same boat, trying to remove dash approaching and moving to SH nairing and such. thanks guys!

 

[alphabattack]

Even just messing around i realized marth's dash is terrible, and i did see how laggy they really are, but falco and fox did seem to have a little better. im in the same boat, trying to remove dash approaching and moving to SH nairing and such. thanks guys!

Marth's dash is actually pretty good. He has a good speed and because the dash animation lasts for so long, he has one of the longest dash dances. Could be the longest, but I am unsure if, even though falcon's dash animation is shorter, his speed causes the distance to be greater. Also, because he crouches so low in his initial dash, it can avoid a poorly executed SHL from Falco. Admittedly his wavedash probably leads to some better punishes, but his dash is still very good.

EDIT: Also, his dash attack causes him to dip down, so if a Falco is doing bad SHL, it can dive under, and a tipper leads to some good punishes.

 

[pooch182]

Dash attacking isn't inherently bad, it's just not meant to be consistently used in a match. If you're over-committing with dash attack, or you're just being very predictable with it, it's going to get shielded, and you're going to get grabbed.

Think of it like Wizard's Foot for a second. Is that always the best option for a Ganon? No. But it does have it's uses like breaking up spacing and resetting the neutral. Samus likes to dash attack at higher percents when it's her fastest move to catch someone in the air. There's a time and a place for dash attacking for a lot of characters, and it tends to be used rather sparingly for most. Just ask yourself: is this the best option? A lot of times, a SH nair will be better, or an f-tilt, or even a grab, etc. Rarely will it be dash attack, but sometimes it just makes sense.

 

[HdTyvek]

Interesting. Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Misinko]

I personally use the dash attack for setups with Mario. I put them in hit stun with a fireball and then follow up with a dash attack. From there, I have a pretty decent set of options. It all really depends on the character, like Sonic's dash attack is absolutely useless for combo game unless your opponent is at 60+% (or they're a heavy character) while other's (like Fox's) are God-sends, and can be used for a verity of things.

 

[MookieRah]

Even just messing around i realized marth's dash is terrible, and i did see how laggy they really are, but falco and fox did seem to have a little better. im in the same boat, trying to remove dash approaching and moving to SH nairing and such. thanks guys!

Don't approach with n-air. It's not safe and will also get you punished. In fact you shouldn't approach players with any of Marth's aerials, as that is asking to get shield grabbed. Your best bet is to stick to the ground and approach with just movement (let the threat of your attacks force a reaction from your opponent), a d-tilt, or a grab. Just hop over to the Marth boards and read a bit of the Dr. PP thread to get more info, and feel free to ask people questions if something doesn't make much sense!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

While watching high level play, i almost never see anyone use a dash attack. is there a reason? are they just simply bad? or do they have their place as well? thoughts?

hm....

It might simply be that said players have other things in mind. I surely see dash attacks being used in play. Its rare I agree to see such a sight.

But, think of utility and is this the proper move to make?

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

As said before dash attacks are really laggy so if you hit shield or miss you're pretty much going to get punished. That is not to say you can't use them for some guaranteed things where you literally can't throw out another move before your opponent can do something. Most dash attacks don't have the ideal combo setup either though so even then if you can hit them with something else most of the time you will. The only characters using their dash attack relatively frequent (which is still sparingly) are Sheik and Peach cause of how well their dash attacks combo. (also cause they are a lot more often in the situation where they don't have the option to go for that other hit cause they're slow) They have their place but it is very situational.

I see you main marth/falco, Marth can dash attack into tipper at the right percent so if you're 100% sure it'll connect it can lead into something. With Falco I'd personally never do a dash attack since it still doesn't have that extra range and you're better of just shooting a laser hoping you'll stun so you can dair into combo.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Off the top of my head, here are a few good dash options:

Mario's dash into utilt is almost always a good option. If they 'ting' the dash, you can PPK.
Mr. Game & Watch's dash into dtilt, if you land the dash.
Luigi's dash into upb is siiick.

I've always liked Link's dash too, even though it doesn't really lead to any combos. The fact that it comes out fast rants it a high rate of success, and it has good KD so they often can't capitalize on its endlag.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Off the top of my head, here are a few good dash options:

Mario's dash into utilt is almost always a good option. If they 'ting' the dash, you can PPK.
Mr. Game & Watch's dash into dtilt, if you land the dash.
Luigi's dash into upb is siiick.

I've always liked Link's dash too, even though it doesn't really lead to any combos. The fact that it comes out fast rants it a high rate of success, and it has good KD so they often can't capitalize on its endlag.

The dash attacks you named here may have an ok reward but it is still really easy to deal with cause it is so negative on whiff/block. Luigi's is actually punishable on hit too as long as you crouch cancel it. Whilst it may lead into something the problem with the dash attacks is that they aren't particularly fast and hard to deal with yet if you don't hit with them they are super punishable.

I'll admit that if your opponent just gets hit by a dash attack it isn't per say bad for the attacker (except luigi his dash attack will always suck) but pulling that off is risky enough to just make shffls/tilts/grabs so much better.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

All true, though I think Mario's is especially strong because it hits low and might hit around the shield (better in other games where you can't aim the shield), and at low percentages it puts them just at the right spot for utilt. It's still a situational tool best saved for after getting your opponent off balance, and overusing it will definitely not pay off.

 

[knightpraetor]

I'm not sure what videos you are watching. When i took the time to study leffen's style vs armada, the most noticeable thing was his intelligent use of dash attack that I had ever seen. None of the fox players I played had ever used it for fear of getting dash attacked.

The main thing that differentiates me from the lesser marths in our region (besides memorizing stupid combo trees) is that I have better dash attack and dtilt usage. Don't be afraid to dash atack. at the very least marth, falco, peach fox and sheik have really good dash attacks.

when you have marth's dash attack hitbox and have the skill to take that one dash attack to 50% or death, the risk reward becomes very much worth it. Also as I understand it you don't get the full CC effect when you are in a dash, so it's relatively easy to avoid CC, the only real places I would worry about abusing it are vs falco and people who can zero to death you off a grab.

Also, on marth you should remember to use the IASA frames on it. Dash attack tends to be the move that all the mid level players filter entirely out of their game, but that's unfortunate.

 

[HdTyvek]

I see you main marth/falco, Marth can dash attack into tipper at the right percent so if you're 100% sure it'll connect it can lead into something. With Falco I'd personally never do a dash attack since it still doesn't have that extra range and you're better of just shooting a laser hoping you'll stun so you can dair into combo.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not sure what videos you are watching. When i took the time to study leffen's style vs armada, the most noticeable thing was his intelligent use of dash attack that I had ever seen. None of the fox players I played had ever used it for fear of getting dash attacked.

The main thing that differentiates me from the lesser marths in our region (besides memorizing stupid combo trees) is that I have better dash attack and dtilt usage. Don't be afraid to dash atack. at the very least marth, falco, peach fox and sheik have really good dash attacks.

when you have marth's dash attack hitbox and have the skill to take that one dash attack to 50% or death, the risk reward becomes very much worth it. Also as I understand it you don't get the full CC effect when you are in a dash, so it's relatively easy to avoid CC, the only real places I would worry about abusing it are vs falco and people who can zero to death you off a grab.

Also, on marth you should remember to use the IASA frames on it. Dash attack tends to be the move that all the mid level players filter entirely out of their game, but that's unfortunate.

Well, I'd say there is a really good reason that mid level players filter it out, it's very similar to how it's a common thing to tell lowbie's not to n-air. They can be really good moves, but they require you to know when to use them or they are detrimental to your game. I think it's just easier for people to realise that Marth's dash attack is not something to be spammed which is why we often don't have to tell players not to use it.

In general though, it's quite niche. It's something that you would only do a handful of times per match at most. I wouldn't suggest this as something that lowbie's should focus on, and to explore that option after they have a better understanding of the game and it's mechanics.

PS: On a slight tangent, I feel that Marth's dash attack is like an anti-dash dance tool in the ditto matchup. Whenever I play against another Marth main here, he uses it to great effect on me. It's still super risky, cause while it's netted him a lot of neat setups, there are also plenty of times when it got him punished.