Are recoveries in P:M too good?

[Zofrea]

I would like to hear the communities opinion on this. I played brawl and brawl + seriously up until around 2010, but from 2011 onward I've been strictly a Melee player. Anyway, coming from Melee, I find P:M to be a tad slower and the combos to be considerably easier to perform in comparison to Melee. However I dont consider this to be a detriment to the gAme as I understand P:M is not trying to be a melee clone. However, I find issue with many of the character recoveries. Not only are there more characters with incredible recovery options I in comparison to Melee, but by and large nearly any character can recover from any distance. Obviously edge hogging and guarding exist for this reason, but i feel this ease of recovering makes the game too easy and forces kills to more often be because of high percent rather than tactical gimps or fast play to cover your opponents options and keep them off stage.

I understand some players may prefer this, but coming from Melee I certainly dont. How does the dedicated P:M community feel about this?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Overall recoveries ARE better than Melee's, however the game is not only not done but still young in its lifetime so people are still learning how to handle the recoveries of people offstage. People tend to forget Melee has over 10 years under its belt (and a lot less characters to deal with)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Recoveries are better, but so is edgeguarding; the offstage game is much more diverse than in melee.
Combos are not easier if your opponent is familiar with the game and DIing moves properly and making spacing for your combo starters awkward. To say combos are easier is to suggest that it can be easier than 0-to-death, which is what Melee Falcon basically has guaranteed on non-fast fallers, and Melee Falco has on pretty much everybody.
The game also isn't much slower unless you're particularly playing slow characters, or are just bad at the new ones.
/thread

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think recovery is too good, because getting knocked off the stage is still generally really bad. Even if you make it back, you're usually put into a very disadvantageous position. Consider tethers for example. Sure, you can make it back to the ledge, but if the opponent is already on the ledge, you're forced into a slow ledge jump and the opponent basically gets a free hit. This is also generally the case in most edgehog situations where you have to recover on the stage.

Also, even though recoveries got better, stage control also got better. Characters like Ivy, Snake, ROB, and others have far better stage control than any character in Melee.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Stage control did not really get better, it only got more diverse. Ivy, snake, and ROB do not have better stage control the Melee characters. Stage control isn't just a matter of leaving hitboxes around the stage, it's a matter of how much space you take up that your opponent can't be simulatenously in and still be able to react to your actions in that area. Fox controls the area of the stage that he dash dances in without throwing any hitboxes out, because the opponent knows that if they move into that area, the open themselves up for a drill->shine or nair->shine or up-smash (at high percents) or even just a grab. Ivy/Snake/ROB may be able to control parts of the stage with projectiles and threatening items, but they all lack any kind of speed or quick high priority aerials (sans ivy's bair which wins based not on hitbox duration or strength but on pure reach) to discourage the opponent from coming close before they can set up their stage controlling projectiles.

 

[NWRL]

Better recoveries mean your offstage has to be on point. There's positives and negatives with everything

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I've wanted to make this topic for a bit, thanks for doing it. I've heard a lot of people complain about recoveries in Project M.

 

[bolt.]

Yes, they are.
You shouldn't be able to attack out of a recovery option. It's not in melee, it shouldn't be in project m.

 

[Renji64]

The only character that has a insane recovery is fox.

 

[Terotrous]

Stage control did not really get better, it only got more diverse. Ivy, snake, and ROB do not have better stage control the Melee characters. Stage control isn't just a matter of leaving hitboxes around the stage, it's a matter of how much space you take up that your opponent can't be simulatenously in and still be able to react to your actions in that area. Fox controls the area of the stage that he dash dances in without throwing any hitboxes out, because the opponent knows that if they move into that area, the open themselves up for a drill->shine or nair->shine or up-smash (at high percents) or even just a grab. Ivy/Snake/ROB may be able to control parts of the stage with projectiles and threatening items, but they all lack any kind of speed or quick high priority aerials (sans ivy's bair which wins based not on hitbox duration or strength but on pure reach) to discourage the opponent from coming close before they can set up their stage controlling projectiles.

I disagree. The stuff these characters can leave on the stage can cover multiple options at once in a way that a single hitbox cannot. For example, if ROB puts his top on the edge, if you recover high, you instantly get caught in it for a follow-up hit. This allows ROB himself to focus on covering the ledge, drastically limiting your recovery options.

Without better recovery options, this would body most characters absurdly hard.

 

[Toxicroaker]

The only character that has a insane recovery is fox.

And Mewtwo.

 

[Terotrous]

And Mewtwo.

I think he was being sarcastic, because Fox's recovery is obviously nowhere near the best.

Ivysaur, Sonic, ROB, Metaknight, Kirby, Jiggs, ZSS, Peach, and various others all have stronger recoveries.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Recoveries are good, but the punish options in this game are a lot better two, and they kind of balance each other out. Take fox and falco for instance, every character now has options to punish for being offstage. An off stage spacie is a dead one now, where only high tiers in melee could do that.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

yes, recoveries are pretty absurd for a few characters and i wouldnt mind them beng nerfed at all. I feel like pm lost alot of the beautiful edge guard kills melee had.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes, they are.
You shouldn't be able to attack out of a recovery option. It's not in melee, it shouldn't be in project m.

Who cares what's not in melee? Melee is remarkably bland by comparison, imbalanced, little variety.
Besides, every character can attack out of their recovery options in Melee. What are double jumps? idk
Exaggerations aside, peach and jigglypuff can do that fairly easily.

I disagree. The stuff these characters can leave on the stage can cover multiple options at once in a way that a single hitbox cannot. For example, if ROB puts his top on the edge, if you recover high, you instantly get caught in it for a follow-up hit. This allows ROB himself to focus on covering the ledge, drastically limiting your recovery options.

Without better recovery options, this would body most characters absurdly hard.

If a character is offstage, the opponent ALREADY controls the stage regardless. ROB isn't the only character that can cover high and low options without a read. Not every character can all the time, no, but neither can ROB. A perfectly spaced Gyro isn't exactly quick to set up at all times. Unless he's sending a floaty to the top right corner and as he does so, is in perfect positioning for a gyro on the edge, it's not a flawless edgeguard in the least. This is especially considering ROB should usually be aiming a laser in their direction as soon as they are offstage. Plenty of characters can recover fast enough that it's much more potent for ROB to just chase them offstage, or to laser snipe their jump.
Anyways, I was referring to stage control at neutral, which is more important. Stage control isn't only achieved by leaving hitboxes around. Especially when said hitboxes have set-up times during which your opponent should already be pressuring you into avoiding.

Also, best distance =/= best recoveries. Especially against spacies, you're most likely to be putting your opponent offstage closer to the stage rather than farther. In a most situations, recovery speed and recovery options are more significant than pure distance. And Fox is definitely up their in options and distance- side-b requires correct positioning punish on reaction and can be shortened in multiple ways to make this that much more difficult for many opponents, up-b has numerous angle options especially above the ledge where they can sweetspot, go high, go straight for the edgeguarder, or anywhere inbetween, it has no extra lag on landing, plus fox has the fastest/one of the fastest double jumps and can stall with down-b. And he has a wall jump. Close to the stage, fox has some of the best recovery options and recovery speed in the game, and a huge portion of the time you aren't knocking your opponent clear to the corner of the stage, that opportunity isn't always going to just present itself like that.
And you have to remember, this all on a character that is supposed to be "easy to punish, 0-to-death guaranteed" which is additional horse**** considering their fall speed actually makes low percent juggles difficult and will often force tech chase situations rather than juggles which are less guaranteed.

 

[Terotrous]

A perfectly spaced Gyro isn't exactly quick to set up at all times.

Yes it is. You don't have to charge the gyro at all, just immediately toss it out. Distance does not have to be pixel-perfect. Watch some JCeasar play, he pretty much always sets out that top.

I suppose if you're very far away from the ledge, you might not be able to get there in time, in which case you should fire the laser instead. If that hits them, then set out the top.

This is especially considering ROB should usually be aiming a laser in their direction as soon as they are offstage. Plenty of characters can recover fast enough that it's much more potent for ROB to just chase them offstage, or to laser snipe their jump.

Also totally valid options that highlight the need for better recoveries if you don't want to get bopped.

Anyways, I was referring to stage control at neutral, which is more important.

We're specifically talking about recoveries though, so offstage stage control is the relevant issue here.

Also, best distance =/= best recoveries.

Very true. Options are also very important.

And Fox is definitely up their in options and distance

Only when recovering high. When recovering low, his options are garbage. Most of the characters I listed have decent options for both high and low.

And you have to remember, this all on a character that is supposed to be "easy to punish, 0-to-death guaranteed" which is additional horse**** considering their fall speed actually makes low percent juggles difficult and will often force tech chase situations rather than juggles which are less guaranteed.

This part I definitely agree with, I posted something similar in the tierlist thread. Gimping Fox is not as easy as people think, because first you have to get him offstage, and he also has to be low. There aren't many ways to set that up at low percentages, and as such, he just has to watch out for the few ways that you can put him in that situation.

 

[MagnesD3]

no its fine honestly

 

[Fortress]

A lot of characters have viable recovery games now, which isn't the same as 'too powerful' Most characters also have tools available to edgeguard effectively.

 

[PastLink]

legit though tech chases are so damn fun.

 

[ELI-mination]

Recoveries are not too good. People's level of edge guarding needs to get better.

 

[fabulouspants]

lol @ drinkingfood's awful post. holy **** its almost as bad as your gameplay. just stop posting

 

[Paradoxium]

I mean, if your comparing the recoveries to melee than yea they're op. But this is a new game, so if a lot of characters have amazing recovery than wouldn't that mean they aren't so amazing? Damn pretend I didn't say anything, I can't seem to say what I mean

 

[Paradoxium]

lol @ drinkingfood's awful post. holy **** its almost as bad as your gameplay. just stop posting

Wow first Strong Bad, than Oracle, and now Drinking Food, for Christ's sake stop making accounts and just go play them in person

 

[fabulouspants]

i dont know who oracle or strong bad are + dont care

 

[lordvaati]

It kind of goes without saying though, due to the larger cast and stage variety, especially since M2, Jiggly and Peach were pretty much the only insane recovery characters in Melee.

 

[Paradoxium]

You don't know who Oracle or Strong Bad are but you know Drinking Food? Wtf?
How does that happen?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

They would be if this was Melee. But this isn't Melee. This is Project M.

 

[Vashimus]

It kind of goes without saying though, due to the larger cast and stage variety, especially since M2, Jiggly and Peach were pretty much the only insane recovery characters in Melee.

I'd say Samus and arguably Pikachu also fit in that category in terms of viable characters.

With so many viable characters in P:M though, many characters are bound to have good recoveries, if we're comparing them to Melee's list of tourney-viable characters.

 

[TreK]

I know the trend is to compare the recoveries with the ones in Melee but... Coming from Brawl, where I play a much less edgeguard-oriented character, I find PM's recoveries to be laughably easy to gimp. The only ones that give somewhat of a challenge are the teleporting ones and the tethers, and it's nowhere close to what I'm used to gimp.

And even if they are a problem for you after you've put in all the work you are expected to put in, you can still pick up a secondary that's better than your main at edgeguarding to edgeguard those 8 decent recoveries out of 41.

Edit :

It's not in melee, it shouldn't be in project m.

By using that kind of logic, one could argue this : "Snake is not in Melee. It shouldn't be in Project M", or this : "Smashville is not in Melee. It shouldn't be in Project M".
So yeah. That is a pretty dumb point to make.

 

[Terotrous]

I know the trend is to compare the recoveries with the ones in Melee but... Coming from Brawl, where I play a much less edgeguard-oriented character, I find PM's recoveries to be laughably easy to gimp.

Well yeah, in Brawl you can airdodge through pretty much all gimp opportunities.

 

[Celestis]

I do think some of the recoveries are kinda dumb, but I also see why they ended up that way. In Melee, Puff is a top tier with excellent recovery. And she was the only top tier character with that kind of ability. So it does not get that much attention for being to good. I could see the Developers of PM thinking, "Why should puff be the only one graced with this?" And started granting other characters similar abilities. So while they can be a little annoying, its really always been there, just not as noticable.

Mario's wall jump as always been there, just everyone always picked doc.
Mewtwo was bottom tier never used.
Samas is.. Just as amazing.

In Melee, the good recoveries were mostly on the the bottom tiers.

Also, I don't see PM really slower then Melee. I can drill shine up smash with just as much flow in PM. I just think its cause the slower characters are good and worth using more. Kinda makes everything else seems slower I guess.

 

[Spralwers]

No way. The edge guarding/offstage game has also been improved. So you need to spend additional time learning how other characters recover and what viable options your characters have for guarding at the edge or off stage.

 

[Celestis]

Its actually only ROB's recovery that bugs me. I know its cause it was good in Brawl, but.. It just has so much versatility to the point I roll my eyes every time I see him recover.

Also, just like I said they are mimicking Puff level recoveries. I also don't think it would hurt to Mimic Falco. Awesome stage game, terrible recovery? One or two more of those might not be bad to see. If he can do it. I am sure some others can, too.

 

[The_NZA]

Some recoveries are a little commitment-phobic. For example, Link's ability to hookshot and let go without needing to touch the edge, and recover a 2nd jump or air dodge means he can approach from the bottom and bring the ledge basically to himself in order to recover another jump without fully committing to coming to the edge itself. Meaning someone looking to grab the edge and force the Link to ledge jump or do something like that will be outplayed by many types of opponents. Other ultra strong recoveries to punish include Zelda, Mewtwo, Peach (melee), Jiggs (melee), Lucas, Mario (on a walled stage). But last patch brought several recovery nerfs and I hope the next does as well.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Totally want to write essay on here but work blah. I'll just leave my thesis statement.

If you think the ability to go far offstage, swing several times to cover a large variety of otpions and then make it back to the stage with relative impunity if successful (and also if not successful, if you make the right strategic choices when going back to the stage yourself), somehow NERFS edge-guarding and gimping and makes it less viable, when the area around the stage is now as much a battlefield as the stage itself ... you need to re-examine your logic.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wow first Strong Bad, than Oracle, and now Drinking Food, for Christ's sake stop making accounts and just go play them in person

he's my personal troll lol he follows me around and ****
I think I could do better but he's offering his services free so ya'know
guess he likes oracle and SB too some
but he even started stalking me in the PM netplay IRC where he uses the tag toilethumor.
No idea how he found me there though.

Totally want to write essay on here but work blah. I'll just leave my thesis statement.
If you think the ability to go far offstage, swing several times to cover a large variety of otpions and then make it back to the stage with relative impunity if successful (and also if not successful, if you make the right strategic choices when going back to the stage yourself), somehow NERFS edge-guarding and gimping and makes it less viable, when the area around the stage is now as much a battlefield as the stage itself ... you need to re-examine your logic.

well I mean
you do play ike
wall jumps and the most redonkulous fair in the game kind of make that a possibility

 

[Rᴏb]

I definitely think a lot of the recoveries in this game are too good, but now that I think about, it's probably to fill the gap that tethers create. Tethers are ridiculous and once they get reverted to how they worked in melee, I expect everyone else's recoveries to be tweaked.

 

[Paradoxium]

he's my personal troll lol he follows me around and ****
I think I could do better but he's offering his services free so ya'know
guess he likes oracle and SB too some
but he even started stalking me in the PM netplay IRC where he uses the tag toilethumor.
No idea how he found me there though

He follows you around and constantly trolls the **** out of you!?
LMFAO!!!
Get owned Drinking Food, that's just too funny

 

[Hashtag]

People just have to get better at edge guarding in PM. Edge guarding in melee was stupid easy.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

he's my personal troll lol he follows me around and ****
I think I could do better but he's offering his services free so ya'know
guess he likes oracle and SB too some
but he even started stalking me in the PM netplay IRC where he uses the tag toilethumor.
No idea how he found me there though.

Can we feed him dog treats? I think that's why he is begging for attention.