Are there actually clones?

[Joalro]

It just occurred to me that Sakurai might be tricking us yet again, as we all know he likes to do.

Since there are now customized move sets in the game, it allows Sakurai to play a new sneaky game with us. For example, if he gave Toon Link an all new moveset, but kept his old moveset as custom moves, it would allow him to show off Toon Link as a clone, then do a second reveal later on as decloned. You could get his old moveset back using customization, but when playing online you would be using his new moves.

At the very least we have not seen any customized moves from Toon Link or Lucina as of yet.

This is clearly a long shot, and I'm personally not terribly against clones. I have no super strong desire for everyone to be decloned, but it was a possibility that occurred to me that I thought I'd share.

What do you think of this possibility? Is this something Sakurai would do?

 

[ShredPix]

Even if the specials are changed, they still have similar moves like tilts, smashes that sort of thing. They'd still be clones, just slightly less so.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I say we have at least two more characters added to the game. Falco and Ganondorf (I don't want to think about it, but since Sakurai is good with Captaindorf he is likely to come back.

 

[Wander]

I doubt they would do any sort of "re-reveal" for custom movesets of semi-clones. Even if Lucina's custom specials are completely different from Marth's, the rest of her moveset looks to be identical. And if Sakurai is fine with that then I wouldn't expect to see a decloned Falco or Ganon.

 

[Canuckduck]

Mario - Luigi (semi-clone)

Link - Toon Link (semi-clone)

Marth - Lucina



Those characters are who I believe will be the "clones".

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Mario - Luigi (semi-clone)

Link - Toon Link (semi-clone)

Marth - Lucina



Those characters are who I believe will be the "clones".

You forgot .

 

[Jellyfish4102]

You forgot .

Brawl Falco is quite different from Brawl Fox. I'd list out their numerous different attacks but I'm too lazy.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Brawl Falco is quite different from Brawl Fox. I'd list out their numerous different attacks but I'm too lazy.

Not enough to be called a non clone. He fits right along with the analogy:

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[Joalro]

I doubt they would do any sort of "re-reveal" for custom movesets of semi-clones. Even if Lucina's custom specials are completely different from Marth's, the rest of her moveset looks to be identical. And if Sakurai is fine with that then I wouldn't expect to see a decloned Falco or Ganon.

My point was not that the characters would have different custom moves, but that the moves we have already seen ARE the customizable moves.

It might even be the case that Lucina and Martha have the exact same move options, but the standard move sets are different. While this clearly won't change the standard attacks, it would upgrade clones to semi clones, and semi clones to completely unique characters.

 

[Canuckduck]

Brawl Falco is quite different from Brawl Fox. I'd list out their numerous different attacks but I'm too lazy.

That's why I considered him to be a "semi-clone".

 

[Oracle_Summon]

That's why I considered him to be a "semi-clone".

I honestly think there should be three level of clones:

First:

Characters that play almost exactly the same and share the same movesets:

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Second:

Characters that differ more in some of their moves, having some different attacks:

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Third:

Characters that share only one or two moves:

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Notable example:
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Luigi seems to be between the Second and Third section of clones for me, like a 2.5.

 

[Tollhouse]

I never had a problem with clones because with most of them it made sense for their moves to be similar. Like Fox and Falco or Mario and Luigi. The only character who really shouldn't be a clone is Ganondorf. He needs his own moveset.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I never had a problem with clones because with most of them it made sense for their moves to be similar. Like Fox and Falco or Mario and Luigi. The only character who really shouldn't be a clone is Ganondorf. He needs his own moveset.

Exactly. There is no reason why the King of Evil should play like a Futuristic Bounty Hunter. And no, Sakurai's preference for a Slower Captain Falcon does not work, that honor should go to Black Shadow (F-Zero Villain).

 

[Xavier :D]

Exactly. There is no reason why the King of Evil should play like a Futuristic Bounty Hunter. And no, Sakurai's preference for a Slower Captain Falcon does not work, that honor should go to Black Shadow (F-Zero Villain).

I really hope Sakurai secretly lurks on SmashBoards and reads this.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I really hope Sakurai secretly lurks on SmashBoards and reads this.

He would probably troll with it and keep Captaindorf anyway. But thanks.

 

[Moldy Clay]

My point was not that the characters would have different custom moves, but that the moves we have already seen ARE the customizable moves.

It might even be the case that Lucina and Martha have the exact same move options, but the standard move sets are different. While this clearly won't change the standard attacks, it would upgrade clones to semi clones, and semi clones to completely unique characters.

That wouldn't exactly work. For two reasons.

First: Custom Moves are -only- for Specials (or B Moves). This means that Toon Link & Lucina would have to have way different Standard attacks (A moves) to be considered less of a clone or not a clone. We've already seen all of Toon Link's moves, and they work more or less the same as Brawl, which means that he is still a clone of Link.

Second: For the time being, the only characters who get brand new moves for Specials via Custom are Mii Fighters & Palutena.

This would mean, even if, for whatever reason, Toon Link or Lucina were using 'clone moves' as their customs, they'd still have the same moves normally, but with different effects. So they'd STILL be clones.

Toon Link having Fire Arrows & Hurricane Spin wouldn't change the fact he still has Arrows & a Spin Attack and tons of the same standard attacks.

I see that you're suggesting that they could be like Lucas (who is not a clone, but his B moves are) but we -know- Toon Link is a clone, and Lucina was described as though she is as well.

There are different tiers of clones anyway. As it stands, SSB4 only has 2 clones. We don't know the full extent of the final build, but they're the only ones.

Using Luigi as a base, clones tend to evolve.
Luigi was a clone in SSB64, but with some minor adjustments.
In Melee, Luigi gained his own special move, different from Mario, and worked less like Mario.
In Brawl, Mario changed a move, differentiating them even more, with Luigi getting his own Final Smash too.
In SSB4, Luigi continues to evolve, getting new movements (and another new Final Smash).

In Melee, all the 'clones' were essentially what Luigi was in SSB64.
In Brawl, the remaining clones were essentially what Melee Luigi was.
Brawl also introduced characters that were not clones, but had cloned Special Moves.
SSB4 is unknown at this point. Toon Link & Lucina don't seem different enough to be out of the 'clone' territory, but only time will tell.

 

[Canuckduck]

I honestly think there should be three level of clones:

First:

Characters that play almost exactly the same and share the same movesets:

----
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Second:

Characters that differ more in some of their moves, having some different attacks:

----
----

Third:

Characters that share only one or two moves:

----
----
----

Notable example:
----

Luigi seems to be between the Second and Third section of clones for me, like a 2.5.

We cannot confirm at this date (July 16, 2014) that Link and Toon Link will play "almost exactly the same" to each other in Super Smash Bros 4.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

We cannot confirm at this date (July 16, 2014) that Link and Toon Link will play "almost exactly the same" to each other in Super Smash Bros 4.

Well, we did get to play a demo version of both a year ago and the characters are pretty much done so...

 

[Canuckduck]

Well, we did get to play a demo version of both a year ago and the characters are pretty much done so...

By "exactly the same", I mean EXACTLY the same, like Mario + Luigi in SSB64.

We can't confirm it at this point since there may be changes to the game before the launch.

 

[Smash G]

Clones suck and are a cheap way to get new characters on the roster.

Luigi I'd say goes far enough from Mario to not be a clone.
Wolf... New A attacks but very similar special attacks make him a semi-clone.
Toon Link is just a clone of Link. Lucina of Marth. Clones are sadly in this game. I really hope Ganondorf gets a new freakin' moveset to not be a clone. Ganondorf could EASILY be given unique moves based on his games...

 

[Renji64]

Clones aren't a issue tons of traditonal fighters have them to a certain extent. I find clones more fun than mirror matches and i like options so it is all gud.

 

[D-idara]

Mario - Luigi (semi-clone)

Link - Toon Link (semi-clone)

Marth - Lucina



Those characters are who I believe will be the "clones".

Mario and Luigi play so differently that they can't be considered clones.

 

[Canuckduck]

Mario and Luigi play so differently that they can't be considered clones.

That's why I called them semi-clones.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

We cannot confirm at this date (July 16, 2014) that Link and Toon Link will play "almost exactly the same" to each other in Super Smash Bros 4.

I guess the same goes for Mario and Luigi since the game isn't out yet?

Based from what we know at the Demos, and and and seem to play exactly as each other with differences in moveset priority and moveset attributes.

 

[Canuckduck]

I guess the same goes for Mario and Luigi since the game isn't out yet?

Based from what we know at the Demos, and and and seem to play exactly as each other with differences in moveset priority and moveset attributes.

Those characters have marginal similarities in terms of animation and movesets, based on my personal experience with Sm4sh.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Those characters have marginal similarities in terms of animation and movesets, based on my personal experience with Sm4sh.

True, but I would say that the differences in Mario and Luigi are greater than those in Link and Toon Link. Which is why I think we need a full on Clone Judging System.

 

[Giga Wario]

The problem with clones isn't necessarily with them sharing movesets with existing fighters (though it does contribute to the annoyance), it's more the fact they could have a totally unique moveset and actually have major potential to be totally new fighters (look at all the gear Link has across Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks and tell me Toon Link can't have his own moveset), but they're just relegated to having slightly different properties, inciting dissatisfaction on all sides. The people who want the character will experience a certain level of disappointment over how their own character doesn't play uniquely, and the people who are indifferent or worse will wonder why they're even in the game to begin with, and some may even be angry that an opportunity for a unique moveset was wasted or cry "wasted slot!". Lucina is particularly bad since she appears to be even more of a clone of Marth than Roy was, begging the question of why she's even got her own slot and isn't just an alternate costume. Hell, just make her a tad taller and bam she fits perfectly as a Marth alt, I mean come on this is the series where an 8 inch puffball is only slightly smaller than a Charizard and where a 240+lb plumber is a firm middleweight as opposed to morbidly obese!

And for the record, customizable movesets actually make the presence of clones worse as opposed to more tolerable, since it proves they can make a unique moveset for the character with differing properties and animations, but instead of doing that to begin with and bringing about benefits on all sides, its relegated to an extra, and the clones stay clones for some reason. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if clones get the exact same custom options as their counterparts because of this, and that would really sadden me, no joke.

 

[DukeofShorts]

Am I the only one who enjoys clone characters? From my point of view, if Sakurai wants a certain character on the roster but can't afford to make a new moveset due to time restraints, just making them a clone to get them on the roster is no problem and can speed things along fairly quickly.(I assume)

So anyways, my point is: more characters=good, clones=more characters ∴ clones=good. (It's basic math)

 

[ShredPix]

Am I the only one who enjoys clone characters? From my point of view, if Sakurai wants a certain character on the roster but can't afford to make a new moveset due to time restraints, just making them a clone to get them on the roster is no problem and can speed things along fairly quickly.(I assume)

So anyways, my point is: more characters=good, clones=more characters ∴ clones=good. (It's basic math)

As stated by Giga Wario, its the fact that these clones could have had unique playstyles and movesets but are instead relegated to playing as a slightly different version of another character. It leaves you with a disappointed feeling. I'd rather have them focus on others that they can make unique and save them for next game. This allows them to have a shot in the next game with a chance of them having a unique moveset. More characters doesn't exactly mean a better roster to me.

 

[HeavyLobster]

All of the Brawl characters differ enough in at least one area to have a unique playstyle, and all of the newcomers outside of Lucina are unique characters. Some of the existing semiclones could be improved with move changes, but overall clones aren't currently a big problem. Lucina might have a few nuances to differentiate herself from Marth, but is currently indistinguishable from him to a casual observer, and more could have and should have been done to at least make her a bit more unique.

 

[Gameboi834]

It really sucks that almost no one read the OP.
This isn't a topic for talking about clones and whether or not you like them, it's whether or not true clones are even in the game.

 

[DukeofShorts]

It really sucks that almost no one read the OP.
This isn't a topic for talking about clones and whether or not you like them, it's whether or not true clones are even in the game.

Oops. I guess there's probably another thread for that.

 

[kchamp523]

I honestly think there should be three level of clones:

First:

Characters that play almost exactly the same and share the same movesets:

----
-----
-----
----

Second:

Characters that differ more in some of their moves, having some different attacks:

----
----

Third:

Characters that share only one or two moves:

----
----
----

Notable example:
----

Luigi seems to be between the Second and Third section of clones for me, like a 2.5.

Not trying to start an argument, but Roy plays pretty differently from marth.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Not trying to start an argument, but Roy plays pretty differently from marth.

He fits with the Analogy I had set up with Mario and Dr. Mario.

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