Kimchi
Smash Ace
@ Yagami, there's also a way you can QD and Counter slide while facing the opposite direction. So let's say you were QDing <--, you can slide <-- while facing -->. Kind of hard to pull off though.
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Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index
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King of Sack
Smash Journeyman
This thread never seems to change. 
Yea, it's because I've stopped lurking !
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Pikas are discussing the Ike matchup!
You guys should come help & stuff:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268151
You guys should come help & stuff:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268151
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Yeah, this is possible but it's effectively pointless so I didn't particularly mention it.
Just reverse the counter WITHOUT Breversing it. i.e. hold diagonal down right and B while facing left.
If you then B reverse THIS you get a Reverse Reverse Slide Draw.
Because I <3 pikachu, I posted.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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So guys, instead of complaining that Ike is the 3rd worst in regular Brawl, I come here asking for help concerning Balanced Brawl.
Because Ryko and I concluded Ike is LITERALLY the worst character in the current build.
So anyhow you probably may already know his changes are stuff like D-smash angle change, QD no longer puts him in freefall.
So yeah his only new change is SA as soon as Eruption starts charging. Which is situationally useful when you're being juggled, but good players just wait to shieldgrab Ike most of the time anyway.
While in the meantime Ganondorf has gotten a lot of buffs that basically make him able to do everything Ike can but better (F-air now fullhop autocancels, wizkick is invincible during hitbox, Warlock Punch has SA until hitbox ends and breaks shields in one hit, F-tilt has SA starting frame 4 until hitbox ends). So yeah Ike only has a better Jab and a less gimpable recovery, but Ganon's new F-tilt basically says "GTFO" just as loud as Ike's Jab and has gimp potential, and Ganondorf also has a much better chance of gimping people in general with his better aerial game, and he can do silly shenanigans like D-throw -> F-air which is now SUPER safe and kills people at like 90% or something, and F-air edgeguarding is almost broken due to how much the reduced aerial ending lag increases Ganon's options offstage.
So I'm sure you guys can come up with better ideas than I can as to what will make Ike not simply outclassed by Ganondorf. My personal opinion is that Ike should have increased shield damage on Jabs, reduced aerial ending lag on N-air and B-air (so that he doesn't suicide with N-air offstage, and so that he can do two B-airs in a fullhop).
Because Ryko and I concluded Ike is LITERALLY the worst character in the current build.
So anyhow you probably may already know his changes are stuff like D-smash angle change, QD no longer puts him in freefall.
So yeah his only new change is SA as soon as Eruption starts charging. Which is situationally useful when you're being juggled, but good players just wait to shieldgrab Ike most of the time anyway.
While in the meantime Ganondorf has gotten a lot of buffs that basically make him able to do everything Ike can but better (F-air now fullhop autocancels, wizkick is invincible during hitbox, Warlock Punch has SA until hitbox ends and breaks shields in one hit, F-tilt has SA starting frame 4 until hitbox ends). So yeah Ike only has a better Jab and a less gimpable recovery, but Ganon's new F-tilt basically says "GTFO" just as loud as Ike's Jab and has gimp potential, and Ganondorf also has a much better chance of gimping people in general with his better aerial game, and he can do silly shenanigans like D-throw -> F-air which is now SUPER safe and kills people at like 90% or something, and F-air edgeguarding is almost broken due to how much the reduced aerial ending lag increases Ganon's options offstage.
So I'm sure you guys can come up with better ideas than I can as to what will make Ike not simply outclassed by Ganondorf. My personal opinion is that Ike should have increased shield damage on Jabs, reduced aerial ending lag on N-air and B-air (so that he doesn't suicide with N-air offstage, and so that he can do two B-airs in a fullhop).
benaji261!
Smash Ace
It's active cause of WHOBO2... and I would go to house with Slaps, but getting there is somewhat my problem.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I have trouble believing a flying Ike could be the worse character in BB, but...random list time of things you could do.
1) Double the hitstun of Jab 1. I wanna combo it into kill moves. Doesn't have to be Fsmash, but something other than Dsmash or Utilt would be nice. Ike has the best Jab in the game, make it obviously so. Better yet, this way it would combo into Aether for nice damage racking.
2) Counter takes less time to start up. I love killing with/using in general Counter, problem is I don't get to that often. Maybe trade some of it's KOing power so it's an anti-juggling move with a low base knockback and average growth? I'd still like it to kill if it hits something like a fully charged Lucas Usmash though. >_>
3) Give Uthrow a set knockback and speed up the ending lag. Right now there is barely any reason to use it over Dthrow, except when Dthrow will send the opponent too far. Make it combo into Bair/Nair/Fair depending on DI?
4) Speaking of Dthrow: make it into a worthwhile KOing move instead of a borderline KOing move. Can I has throw that kills Mario with good DI at 100% please?
5) Give Bthrow a few less frames of ending lag. Right now we're just short of being able to CG with Bthrow at low %s on characters not named Bowser. It would also expand the range Bthrow can combo into Dash Attack.
6) Sure, do the reduce Bair ending time thing. If you're going to do that, mind making it so that it ends before an AD does so we can use it to regain control in the air faster?
7) Make Dtilt faster, which would expand our onstage edgeguarding a bit.
8) I mentioned Aether a while ago: give the small hits a tad more hitstun so MK can't Uair us out of it, and make it so the first hit sends you flying into the spinning sword a bit better?
1) Double the hitstun of Jab 1. I wanna combo it into kill moves. Doesn't have to be Fsmash, but something other than Dsmash or Utilt would be nice. Ike has the best Jab in the game, make it obviously so. Better yet, this way it would combo into Aether for nice damage racking.
2) Counter takes less time to start up. I love killing with/using in general Counter, problem is I don't get to that often. Maybe trade some of it's KOing power so it's an anti-juggling move with a low base knockback and average growth? I'd still like it to kill if it hits something like a fully charged Lucas Usmash though. >_>
3) Give Uthrow a set knockback and speed up the ending lag. Right now there is barely any reason to use it over Dthrow, except when Dthrow will send the opponent too far. Make it combo into Bair/Nair/Fair depending on DI?
4) Speaking of Dthrow: make it into a worthwhile KOing move instead of a borderline KOing move. Can I has throw that kills Mario with good DI at 100% please?
5) Give Bthrow a few less frames of ending lag. Right now we're just short of being able to CG with Bthrow at low %s on characters not named Bowser. It would also expand the range Bthrow can combo into Dash Attack.
6) Sure, do the reduce Bair ending time thing. If you're going to do that, mind making it so that it ends before an AD does so we can use it to regain control in the air faster?
7) Make Dtilt faster, which would expand our onstage edgeguarding a bit.
8) I mentioned Aether a while ago: give the small hits a tad more hitstun so MK can't Uair us out of it, and make it so the first hit sends you flying into the spinning sword a bit better?
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Ike's biggest problems in most matchups aren't related to being easily gimped except against characters like Marth and Metaknight, the latter of which who STILL can gimp Ike since he has multiple midair jumps with which to chase Ike. Ike however doesn't have many really reliable traps or safe approaches. He still has a lot of onstage problems, while most other characters around him in the current build are actually getting a lot of very useful onstage buffs, so in short, he's outclassed by many characters who don't do any worse than Ike does at approaching, but have more ways to reliably set up into other moves.
The current build's Ganondorf is the best example of how Ike is getting outclassed. I don't even think Ganondorf is very good in this particular build, yet his F-tilt, F-air, and Wizkick buffs do actually help address his problems. Ganon's F-tilt SA lets him actually do something quickly in close range, his F-air fullhop autocancel means he can use F-air to challenge the **** out of nearly every other aerial approach in the game with a move that does like 18 damage and kills at like 80-90% and has massive shield pushback. His wizkick buff allows him to get past formerly insurmountable walls like the ICs Blizzard (while keeping in mind that his Wizkick did get a huge power buff).
Yeah, speaking of Jabs, Sheik's Jab is clearly better than Ike's in Balanced Brawl (wtf, she can cancel Rapid Jabs to anything), so yeaaaaah, more reason as to why Ike should have a buff to Jabs.
They probably won't change startup times ever, but hmmmmm, I'll ask them to buff the damage output of Counter.
Y'know, I was thinking at this minute that U-throw should be the kill throw and D-throw should be the combo throw. Since D-throw actually has less ending lag than U-throw, so yeah. But anyhow I did suggest that they give Ike a better chance of killing with throws...somehow that didn't make it through. I'll ask again.
One of the things BBrawl REALLY hates is inescapable lockdowns and chaingrabs, so no, B-throw isn't getting buffed that way keep in mind.
D-tilt not being useless sounds fun, although idk, I have a feeling someone besides me is going to complain that it will be too much like Link's D-tilt (which actually has pretty low ending lag and became a kill move).
Aether...I don't know how the hits work. Changing the hit properties of that move sounds too difficult when the properties of tumble and hitstun are REALLY gay. HOWEVER Rykoshet had a smart suggestion not to long ago about making the SA frames start earlier on the move so that it could be used as a counter option out of shield.
The current build's Ganondorf is the best example of how Ike is getting outclassed. I don't even think Ganondorf is very good in this particular build, yet his F-tilt, F-air, and Wizkick buffs do actually help address his problems. Ganon's F-tilt SA lets him actually do something quickly in close range, his F-air fullhop autocancel means he can use F-air to challenge the **** out of nearly every other aerial approach in the game with a move that does like 18 damage and kills at like 80-90% and has massive shield pushback. His wizkick buff allows him to get past formerly insurmountable walls like the ICs Blizzard (while keeping in mind that his Wizkick did get a huge power buff).
Yeah, speaking of Jabs, Sheik's Jab is clearly better than Ike's in Balanced Brawl (wtf, she can cancel Rapid Jabs to anything), so yeaaaaah, more reason as to why Ike should have a buff to Jabs.
They probably won't change startup times ever, but hmmmmm, I'll ask them to buff the damage output of Counter.
Y'know, I was thinking at this minute that U-throw should be the kill throw and D-throw should be the combo throw. Since D-throw actually has less ending lag than U-throw, so yeah. But anyhow I did suggest that they give Ike a better chance of killing with throws...somehow that didn't make it through. I'll ask again.
One of the things BBrawl REALLY hates is inescapable lockdowns and chaingrabs, so no, B-throw isn't getting buffed that way keep in mind.
D-tilt not being useless sounds fun, although idk, I have a feeling someone besides me is going to complain that it will be too much like Link's D-tilt (which actually has pretty low ending lag and became a kill move).
Aether...I don't know how the hits work. Changing the hit properties of that move sounds too difficult when the properties of tumble and hitstun are REALLY gay. HOWEVER Rykoshet had a smart suggestion not to long ago about making the SA frames start earlier on the move so that it could be used as a counter option out of shield.
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
I haven't had any instances where my b-throw to dash attack was power-shielded. I think it's best if you do it near the ledge, like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv0hLbVzUd8#t=1m55s
Edit: Oooh. A2 shows up and talks about balanced brawl. Interesting.
benaji261!
Smash Ace
Yea but the fox jumped into that one. He could've dropped and taken the edge. That doesn't happen all the time with pros Mr. Doom.
Couldn't you make there be more knockback when aether comes down or make him able to recover from it faster so he's not so vulnerable?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
*shrugs* I don't play BB, I wouldn't know for sure what would work there.
Buff Ike's Jab. He should always be the one with the best jab game, screw Sheik.
I know Dthrow has less ending lag, but that's always been the stronger of the two. And I like killing people by jumping on their gut. >_> <_< Either way: make one have set knockback so we have more ways to combo into a kill move.
Earlier SA frames on Aether would help obviously, but only if they actually got sent into the spinning blade. If only the first hit hits and Ike's spinning in the air right above them, he just set himself up to be potentially juggled.
If you want Ike to have a good approaching options: tinker with QD more. Make it so you can go from QD -> Jab faster when it doesn't hit. You could be crazy, and make it so QD doesn't swing when used on the ground, and instead is simply a flying, SA enhanced, "get me from point A to point B so I can jab instantly" move.
Buff Ike's Jab. He should always be the one with the best jab game, screw Sheik.
I know Dthrow has less ending lag, but that's always been the stronger of the two. And I like killing people by jumping on their gut. >_> <_< Either way: make one have set knockback so we have more ways to combo into a kill move.
Earlier SA frames on Aether would help obviously, but only if they actually got sent into the spinning blade. If only the first hit hits and Ike's spinning in the air right above them, he just set himself up to be potentially juggled.
If you want Ike to have a good approaching options: tinker with QD more. Make it so you can go from QD -> Jab faster when it doesn't hit. You could be crazy, and make it so QD doesn't swing when used on the ground, and instead is simply a flying, SA enhanced, "get me from point A to point B so I can jab instantly" move.
the sheik jab buff is pretty ridiculous and i think it's going to go or get nerfed somehow (easier to SDI the rapid jabs?). well, that's my opinion anyway. the problem with buffing ike jab is that if it gets any better, he can do some really ridiculous stuff like canceling it into an ftilt which kills at like 100% on most characters and has tons of range so SDI becomes less effective...there's a very fine line we have to walk with ike. if we give him that kind of seemingly minor setup, he suddenly becomes very, very good because he has some really serious reward on hit (well, except for dsmash).
personally i think improving his zoning is the best way to go about the character. i'd like to see a faster, weaker ftilt that can safely hit shields and keep people out. i like the aether buff idea too, some way to make it a great OoS option.
buffing QD even more could be an option when you look at the silly buff peach bomber got...but i think that buff too will be tuned down or removed.
ike is tough because his boxing game is pretty good with jab alone and he has tremendous range...if we buff his ranged attacks we make matchups like jiggs and such way too lopsided, and the same goes for his jab and ganon. (seriously, jab -> ftilt sounds pretty ridiculous) it's just that he's too slow overall...but an ike with, say, SH autocanceling fair would automatically be high-top tier and have matchups better than the 60-40 threshold (which is the goal for bbrawl). iduno. i think we have to give him some kind of safe option and then nerf it or some other stuff to compensate. this would make his bad stuff not so bad and his good stuff not so good, thus smoothing the character out a bit.
personally i think improving his zoning is the best way to go about the character. i'd like to see a faster, weaker ftilt that can safely hit shields and keep people out. i like the aether buff idea too, some way to make it a great OoS option.
buffing QD even more could be an option when you look at the silly buff peach bomber got...but i think that buff too will be tuned down or removed.
ike is tough because his boxing game is pretty good with jab alone and he has tremendous range...if we buff his ranged attacks we make matchups like jiggs and such way too lopsided, and the same goes for his jab and ganon. (seriously, jab -> ftilt sounds pretty ridiculous) it's just that he's too slow overall...but an ike with, say, SH autocanceling fair would automatically be high-top tier and have matchups better than the 60-40 threshold (which is the goal for bbrawl). iduno. i think we have to give him some kind of safe option and then nerf it or some other stuff to compensate. this would make his bad stuff not so bad and his good stuff not so good, thus smoothing the character out a bit.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I fail to see the problem here.
Kirk
Smash Champion
On Kimchi's recommendation, I have come to visit Ashu's.
Hello again!
Balanced Brawl is still alive and kicking? What is this I don't even...
Hello again!
Balanced Brawl is still alive and kicking? What is this I don't even...
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Yeah, I don't get it either.
On a different note, I'm having an audio player identity crisis. I have like 4 installed and can't seem to stick to one. Which one do you guys use?
Kimchi
Smash Ace
On your 1500th Post you visit again. You better stay here now
theeboredone
Smash Legend
Itunes, because it came with my MAC and runs fine. As long as it plays music, I'm good.
Palpi
Smash Hero
itunes works fine for me too
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Whoa, Steeler alert! What's he doing here???
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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He probably searched up 'Balanced Brawl'.
So yeah changing topic....how often do you get away with B-throw F-smash edgeguarding? I like laughing at nubs who jump right into it and then get gimped.
Or of course there's landing it in FFAs and shouting "ONE HIT COMBO!"
So yeah changing topic....how often do you get away with B-throw F-smash edgeguarding? I like laughing at nubs who jump right into it and then get gimped.
Or of course there's landing it in FFAs and shouting "ONE HIT COMBO!"
theeboredone
Smash Legend
Never works in tournies.
Kimchi
Smash Ace
But Bthrow -> Dash Attack does? amirite?
Teh Brettster
Smash Master
Kirk, I was literally about to go to your page and say "OH, I GET IT! KIRK RHYMES WITH LURK!" But then I saw you posted here. And now I suppose I don't have to say that.
theeboredone
Smash Legend
I use Itunes too
Dark 3nergy
Smash Hero
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what the christ LOL
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Even I don't try something like that. And I'm the Worse Ike in Texas. >_>
I have however ground grab released a Lucas from one side of FD, to the other, off stage, charged Fsmash, and hit him out of his PKT2 with it. For obvious reasons, I three stocked that Lucas. lol
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
i still think slaps is the worse even though he got all cocky cause of phase and is pm ally to team with him for whobo lol.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
He has outplaced me. Best I've finished is second last.
He's (sadly) better than me.
He's (sadly) better than me.
Niddo I believe you can get a lot better lol.
theeboredone
Smash Legend
No he can't. The last time he showed up to a fest/tourny was when brawl first came out. There's a running joke in the San Antonio + Austin thread on he should stop announcing that he isn't gonna show up, cause that's what we expect. Rather, he should make an announcement when he does decide to show up.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Not without a job so I can actually go to tournaments.
I still have no luck getting one...
And honestly, I don't think I'll ever get very far in tournaments. My reaction time has always been lousy. For example: I ended up taking a line drive to the chest when I used to play baseball because I didn't look up quickly enough when I heard the *crack*. I play mainly for the fun of trying to figure out match-ups and passing on that information, lol.
EDIT:
Hey!
Last tournament was Final Smash!
But ya, the rest is true. ;_;
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Reaction time is definitely improvable. Just try your best to fix it.
You know the stuff, Niddo. You just need to apply it.
You know the stuff, Niddo. You just need to apply it.
theeboredone
Smash Legend
In brawl, reaction time is a mix of the brain and muscle memory.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ya, I know the stuff. Except for when I forget it. >_>
And there really isn't much for muscle memory when it comes to Ike. We ain't exactly ICs. lol
And there really isn't much for muscle memory when it comes to Ike. We ain't exactly ICs. lol
FrznSaber
Smash Journeyman
People say just by playing melee, it'll improve your tech skill and such. After trying it out for myself I can see why with all the techs and all.
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