Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[feardragon64]

I never SHAD din's fire... I may now if that's what you're really suppose to do, but I just shield it...

If you do SHAD it, SHAD it not because it's getting close, but because you see Zelda's "it's gonna explode" animation.

 

[DarkRunner00]

If you do SHAD it, SHAD it not because it's getting close, but because you see Zelda's "it's gonna explode" animation.

you're brilliant!!! i just remembered... the whole tutorial about Zelda's hand animation... you totally reminded me of that stuff... oh god that's awesome thanks... for that.

I read it like months ago... and forgot about it... gotta remember it now...

 

[Veng]

What do you need to KNOW to get good with marth, from the GOOD ones ive seen they do: Dancing blades, Fair, nair and Fsmash/usmash the most. in fact thats usually all i see other then bair and recovering occasionally.

ANy tips for a new marth? REALLY want to get good with him... also any AT's anything good i need to knwo?

 

[feardragon64]

What do you need to KNOW to get good with marth, from the GOOD ones ive seen they do: Dancing blades, Fair, nair and Fsmash/usmash the most. in fact thats usually all i see other then bair and recovering occasionally.

ANy tips for a new marth? REALLY want to get good with him... also any AT's anything good i need to knwo?

Read the stickies
Watch vids of good players(NEO)
Practice
Read the threads on the board

4 Step guide to becoming an awesome marth

 

[DarkRunner00]

NO AT's...

You got it down.

missing Dolphin Slash...

everything is typically done for defensive reasons... viola... Veng you're a beautiful Marth main...

also...

now...

can someone tell me or test... SB charge length...

fully charged means it makes the sound and that i just hold B until the sound goes off and it'll auto release... but is there a charge count so i don't have to wait for it...

lately i've been releasing it but when I do it create fully charged sound... am I just coincidently releasing it at peak time... or is there a few frames cut out when I release it at a certain point?

...

and this

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=cCA5hTvZIYM
the grab at 2:30-2:38
how do you do this...

is it just that cancel and then a standing grab... cuz that' distance looks like Marth's standing grab distance...

 

[Remzi]

usmash is overrated >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bite your tongue.

I have hawt sweaty sex with that move every night.

 

[phi1ny3]

Question: I heard from someone that Marth can wavebounce. I have extreme doubts of the validity of this statement, let alone useful application of this tech. Clarification? Oh, and which moves have the best flow and are best to use after the third down strike of DB?

 

[Veng]

I kinda main pika and i like marth more, just his quickness and range, but still have questions.. like is wavebouncing good with him ( bsticking ) and is he a hard learning curve?

 

[Steel]

You can wavebounce with marth but it isnt effective at all. His learning curve is huge.

 

[Veng]

what makes it so "huge" like what must i know

 

[phi1ny3]

what makes it so "huge" like what must i know

Well for one, there are times where you actually DON'T want to tip, it is hard to truly understand when to use the "setups", and unlike Ike, almost all of Marth's moves are usable and good. I also think Lucario is also a steep learning curve for his metagame, but both have awesome gameplay.

 

[DarkRunner00]

i disagree... Marth's learning curve isn't too much to handle...

you can learn him pretty easily, but you can only use all of his potential until later on once you get the grasp of his metagame.

Marth isn't too hard.

I don't know when you don't WANT tip for marth... this isn't Melee with ken combo... where untipped fair leads to another untipped fair...

You always want Marth at tip range against most characters.

 

[feardragon64]

Marth is one of those “great on paper” characters who when you actually take to a battle, things don’t really come together as well as you’d hope. That’s because Marth has a very steep learning curve. When you pick up Marth, you will make mistakes constantly. There are only a handful of good Marth’s who are actually really skilled and play smart. Understand it, accept it, and work to be one of those Marth’s.

Quote from an old thread.

Marth has such a large learning curve because he's effective when you play him perfectly. If you make mistakes, Marth begins to suck. You may say it's true for all characters, but for Marth he's incredibly hard to play perfectly. There are so many factors involved in calculating spacing and you have to make tons of decisions in a split second. It's easy for people to analyze how Marth SHOULD play a battle based on the tools he has, but it's an entirely different thing to actually be able to DO IT in game where you don't have time to think about things. THAT is why Marth has such a high learning curve.

Imo this is how marth's learning curve goes in degree of skill:

scub level: awesome
beginner tournament level: alright
middle tournament level: crap
high tournament level: alright
Top level play: awesome

 

[phi1ny3]

Quote from an old thread.

Marth has such a large learning curve because he's effective when you play him perfectly. If you make mistakes, Marth begins to suck. You may say it's true for all characters, but for Marth he's incredibly hard to play perfectly. There are so many factors involved in calculating spacing and you have to make tons of decisions in a split second. It's easy for people to analyze how Marth SHOULD play a battle based on the tools he has, but it's an entirely different thing to actually be able to DO IT in game where you don't have time to think about things. THAT is why Marth has such a high learning curve.

Imo this is how marth's learning curve goes in degree of skill:

scub level: awesome
beginner tournament level: alright
middle tournament level: crap
high tournament level: alright
Top level play: awesome

This explains it very well, better than I could have in the my alloted time. I have seen a lot of ruined marths because they start, but think they've gone higher, only to lose considerably when they pass on to the next "stage" of competition. Some make it, some switch out.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Quote from an old thread.

Imo this is how marth's learning curve goes in degree of skill:

scub level: awesome
beginner tournament level: alright
middle tournament level: crap
high tournament level: alright
Top level play: awesome

what does this mean?

scrub level Marth is great and doesn't need to be played perfectly?

and Marth does soso in lower tournament play... and then become once incredible at high level play...

I don't know.

I agree at scrub level, Marth is considered as on OP character. While Falco and GnW and even D3 aren't considers OP... but that just means his gameplay is easy to pickup...

I also agree that Marth is an "on-paper" type character.

But even on paper, we say to space... and you'll go unpunished. That is the only hard thing about Marth... But even other characters need spacing...

I don't come across too many Marth players... but they're not very good... unless they're are already consistent placers... (only supporting your idea of have top level gameplay to Marth's pro)

Learning curve isn't steep, if all needed is practice. There's nothing particularly special with him... no AT that needs agile fingers and high dexterity... it's about playing smart... and doing that isn't too difficult... since it revolves on one strategy: spacing.

EDIT: and reacting

 

[Emblem Lord]

You guys toss around the word on paper alot.

Why do all of you think Marth is some god on paper?

Marth is what he is. I have said this numerous times.

 

[DarkRunner00]

well, jeez... i'm not praising him like that...

its just Marth's things are ezier said than done, am I wrong?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course.

And I like it that way.

Marth boards is a scrub free zone.

 

[Steel]

And this is why his learning curve is huge.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Of course.

And I like it that way.

Marth boards is a scrub free zone.

... that's why I don't like it too much, other than learning things...
all my friends are scrubs... but I like being with them...

I guess... it's the only way to push Marth's metagame along...

 

[Remzi]

The only reason I say that is because if the person playing Marth were to have near immaculate spacing, he'd be a complete beast, but thats just not reasonable 99% of the time.

 

[Remzi]

Bite your tongue.

I have hawt sweaty sex with that move every night.

*steps back slowly, walks out of topic*

 

[Shaya]

Up Smash is awesome as a damage racker. Absoloutely awesome. It even has reasonable shield knockback if the feet hitboxes are the ones hitting your opponent.

 

[feardragon64]

You guys toss around the word on paper alot.

Why do all of you think Marth is some god on paper?

Marth is what he is. I have said this numerous times.

The only reason I say that is because if the person playing Marth were to have near immaculate spacing, he'd be a complete beast, but thats just not reasonable 99% of the time.

^This

Sure "Marth is what he is." I get what you're saying. But i highly doubt anybody will play the absolute perfect Marth game because that'd almost be inhuman. Spacing perfectly 100% of the time, using the best move for the moment, etc. We're human and sometimes we accidentally fair a quarter of a second later than we should have and get hit by an attack that we theoretically could have out spaced. Marth isn't a GOD on paper, but he's **** good. When I say on paper, I mean theoretically, he could be that good. COULD be. The reason he's not is because people don't take him there. It's not a matter of progressing meta-game and crap. It's a matter of having the skill to do it.

P.S. EL is cheating on dtilt

 

[Steel]

Up smashes hit box is so ****ed up.

I abuse that move.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You guys don't need to be perfect. You just need to make smart decisions. I have seen the vids you guys post and usually you guys don't make smart choices and you get ***** because of it.

Cept for Viet.

He has potential.

 

[feardragon64]

You guys don't need to be perfect. You just need to make smart decisions. I have seen the vids you guys post and usually you guys don't make smart choices and you get ***** because of it.

Cept for Viet.

He has potential.

I'm not doubting Marth's ability to do well without being perfect. But generally, whenever we discuss Marth it's at an extremely high level of play(match up threads). Obviously, that's how Match up threads should be, but that's not generally how games are. Generally, meaning at extremely high level of play. At that kind of level of play Marth does well because even though they don't play perfect, they make few enough mistakes that it's much closer to the whole "perfect" thing. It's like a limit. You can get **** close to it, but you'll never hit it. Marth is great "on paper." I'm not saying he's NOT great off paper. I'm just saying, he's great "on paper." If you want me to rephrase it, I could say he has a good character design.

Besides, my Marth is useless. I know HOW to play him well, I'm just working on actually doing it. lol
Viet just needs to find a new favorite number. Like 1 instead of 5.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I dunno about you guys, but when I discuss match-ups I assume both players will make minimal mistakes. Not perfect play because then well...no one would get hit. You block everything and roll away at the right times.

It's the highest level of play within human limits.

I think you guys got too caught up in the wording of the analysis and things like that.

Ill make it easy for all of you.

Concentrate on getting better and not on how you THINK Marth should be or w/e.

 

[DarkRunner00]

I dunno about you guys, but when I discuss match-ups I assume both players will make minimal mistakes. Not perfect play because then well...no one would get hit. You block everything and roll away at the right times.

It's the highest level of play within human limits.

I think you guys got too caught up in the wording of the analysis and things like that.

Ill make it easy for all of you.

Concentrate on getting better and not on how you THINK Marth should be or w/e.

QFT

don't put me in this paper junk... i hardly do if this and that on the forums...

I know my potential... and I know when I make mistakes and regret them. I've learned which choices are good and which I will be punishable...

paper is paper since... nothing is concrete on paper...

Why isn't VG more than just potential? he's quite proficient with Marth...
if you mean has more potential, then yeah, that boi is boss.

...

all I've got to say is that... reaction and smart play comes from practice and experience...

that being said.. Marth is a straight foward character with a little more than a bag of chips... His attacks must be practiced and spaced... and reaction to which attack to use in certain situations come from experience.

'nuff said.

Marth is Marth, as EL said... but I stand firm saying Marth's learning curve is not that difficult... Learning a character is different from being an excellent, smart player...

 

[feardragon64]

Concentrate on getting better and not on how you THINK Marth should be or w/e.

Fair enough. Not going to lie, I get caught up in that a lot. I guess it's just me compensating for having a crappy Marth.

 

[crazn137]

When are the appropriate times to use jab as a poking tool? Its range isn't as great, and IIRC it comes out a few frames before while having IASA frames a bit after dtilt. Is jab more of a move to keep your opponent off you, or an efficient poking tool like dtilt?

I also need some advice for gimping Wolf. His side B stops me from getting that gimp a lot of the time. I either get spiked or time my invincibility frames wrong.

 

[feardragon64]

When are the appropriate times to use jab as a poking tool? Its range isn't as great, and IIRC it comes out a few frames before while having IASA frames a bit after dtilt. Is jab more of a move to keep your opponent off you, or an efficient poking tool like dtilt?

I also need some advice for gimping Wolf. His side B stops me from getting that gimp a lot of the time. I either get spiked or time my invincibility frames wrong.

Jab isn't a poking tool. It's a spacing tool. Like you said, it keeps the opponent off of you.

You can intercept the space animal's side-b. Just learn to time it properly if you have too much trouble timing invincibility frames for it.

 

[Shaya]

I have seen the vids you guys post and usually you guys don't make smart choices and you get ***** because of it.

Cept for Viet.

He has potential.

I hate the fact you've never rated one of my vids ;_; Now I believe I don't have potential.

lol.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You guys don't need to be perfect. You just need to make smart decisions. I have seen the vids you guys post and usually you guys don't make smart choices and you get ***** because of it.

Cept for Viet.

He has potential.

I dunno about you guys, but when I discuss match-ups I assume both players will make minimal mistakes. Not perfect play because then well...no one would get hit. You block everything and roll away at the right times.

It's the highest level of play within human limits.

I think you guys got too caught up in the wording of the analysis and things like that.

Ill make it easy for all of you.

Concentrate on getting better and not on how you THINK Marth should be or w/e.

I agree with both of these, I try not to get too caugh up with any wording stuff, it is really irrelevant compared to what is actually being said, how it is said doesn't really matter at all. The reason we are on SmashBoards (for the ost part) is too get better at 64/Melee/Brawl, so why worry about the little details of a matchup when the big picture of said matchup is more important. I'm not saying that details aren't important, just that the full ideas being presented are more important.

This is a bit irrelevant to this discussion, but I'll be lurking here for the most part for a few days, I'm just going to take a break here.

Spoiler

Doctor's Orders

 

[TheRazaman]

Best way to DI out of zelda's Usmash?

 

[phi1ny3]

Best way to DI out of zelda's Usmash?

Very hard to, unlike her fsmash.

 

[feardragon64]

Best way to DI out of zelda's Usmash?

Hit up on control stick and c-stick up repeatedly.

 

[Nike.]

I have a n00b question. For the Grab release, which characters are shorter than marth? And are there multiple options after the release against certain characters?

 

[feardragon64]

I have a n00b question. For the Grab release, which characters are shorter than marth? And are there multiple options after the release against certain characters?

I know someone made a thread about this and listed every guaranteed attack out of a grab release, a list of characters who jump grab released and who ground grab released, etc. I might come back and edit the link in if I find it and don't feel lazy.