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[mith132]

Well this makes it different. T0mmy is possibly one of the best robs in the country. I think he is in the top 3 for robs. Most robs aren't this good. From what I can remember he got 13th at genesis.

I know, that's why I got *****. So are you saying that most rob's arent able to space this well? I have a feeling that if I fight any rob that can space/intercept my recover I will lose.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I know, that's why I got *****. So are you saying that most rob's arent able to space this well? I have a feeling that if I fight any rob that can space/intercept my recover I will lose.

Your not of equal skill level so it wouldnt matter. If you work on your spacing then you won't be beaten as easily. List:
-space fsmashes and use sparingly. dont use them all crazy like or u will get punished
-ac retreating fairs
-spaced bairs
-dont airdodge into people
-when falling from sky go as far away as possible to your opponent no matter the character
-stuff etc......

 

[Ishiey]

ROB gets ***** so bad in the air. Has anyone else ever noticed that all the videos of people getting hit by 5 bairs in a row are on ROBs? Do that to him, seriously, it works.

For the thing that Seagull said about falling away, use the blaster to push yourself in a direction, it allows for additional momentum.

 

[mith132]

Thanks guys. guess i need to work on my spacing a little more

thanks again. hopefully next tourney I go to wont involve me playing one of the best robs in the second round

 

[Kako]

Wow, 5 Bairs on ROB in a row? This is very impressive, I want to see this.
And... How do I play against an MK? I have great difficulty against this character.

 

[lucha5]

the mk match-up is tough and it depends on what mk your playing, but in general i camp more with lasers,fsmash when i can. But really this mu is about being really smart and annyoning your oppoent.i like cping halberd, cause i can kill mk earlier and i have abit more space to manuever imo.

 

[Kako]

Oh, Thanks a lot, Lucha5, I'm don't have nothing to say now =P

 

[mith132]

the mk match-up is tough and it depends on what mk your playing, but in general i camp more with lasers,fsmash when i can. But really this mu is about being really smart and annyoning your oppoent.i like cping halberd, cause i can kill mk earlier and i have abit more space to manuever imo.

When you say cping halberd, is that because of the closer edges (less horizontal trajectory needed to kill)?

 

[lucha5]

Yea vertically too, up-smash can kill abit earlier.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Alright, I'm royally pissed.

So, this is my problem. I can do just about any tech on this game except flash cancelling (consistently that is). So, naturally, I tried to correct my flocking mistake. Stupid bs occurs, such as getting it consistently for about four tries, then fail for twenty tries. Then, I decide to use an old trick: close my eyes or look away. It's what I did for Animal Crossing when I tried to catch a fish.

And whoop-de-****ing-doo, it's easier when I'm looking away.

Now, I don't know about you, but generally, looking away from smash whilst playing competitively is kind of a no-no.

tl;dr

What the hell do you guys do to get the timing down? For some ******** reason beyond my llimited brain, I can only get it consistently when I'm looking away from screen (meaning the visual of the wolf flash throws me off).

*Note: It's easy for me to get the cancel on ground, but in air, where the cancel frame is placed differently, I can't get it. <_<

Help me. Dear God.

/slightly flustered

 

[Zaffy]

What are some tactics agaisnt wolf? The person i play just spams Blaster then does a smash, then repeats, and due to laggy wifi, it's near impossible to perfect shield. Any suggestions?

I know ZSS's down smash screws wolf and other star fox creatures, but anything else?

 

[SelfPossessed]

Three questions, all theorycraft. Help appreciated, even if it's just theorycraft rebuttals.

1) SH without fast falling

Universal landing lag is 2 frames. Universal landing lag on fast fall is 6 frames. Don't quote me on the numbers, it's what I read elsewhere on the boards.

In theory then, performing an aerial close to the ground so it autocancels right after the hitbox comes out without fast falling would allow Wolf to perform another action almost immediately. However, without FF, it takes forever for the aerial to land (though not as much as other characters due to Wolf's natural fall speed). It therefore isn't as useful for punishing despite the increased chance of combos.

With that in mind, is SH wait Bair autocancel, no FF, useful?

• The timing should be different from SH FF Bair, which might make powershielding more difficult.
• Since it's slower, an opponent holding shield expecting the earlier FF Bair would have a smaller shield, which might increase the chance of a foot shieldpoke.
• It gives you more time to DI in the air, which might help against dash shield grab attempts.
• If an opponent is looking to shield grab, the lack of a Bair might bait them into grabbing early, allowing the delayed Bair to hit them as they drop their shield.
• Shine right after the autocancel might make it safer (maybe even completely safe?) on shield if the Bair is spaced poorly. If this is true, doing this even once might scare opponents from punishing a misspaced FF Bair too quickly, possibly increasing the chance of escaping punishment with a misspaced FF Bair.

2) Lightstep/Telestep jumpshine

I'm looking for more options to return onto the stage after grabbing the ledge.

Shining too close to the ledge is risky as you can't ledgecancel Shines (plank galore if Wolf could).
Using your double jump is also risky as getting hit out of it is a stock.
What about jumpshine (invincibility on your double jump) over the opponent though?

How early can you jumpshine after a lightstep? (Wolf jumpshines over them to land on stage) Can you get hit before the shine activates?
How early can you jumpshine after a telestep? (Wolf doesn't touch the ground, so no landing lag) Can you get hit before the shine activates?

3) Shine suicide gimps

Shine typically grants 4, sometimes more, frames of advantage.
Most airdodges I believe start invincibility on frame 4.

There are a select few characters that Wolf can gimp with jumpshine and return safely. For those that he can't, is it possible to continually Shine them downwards, effectively doing a suicide KO?

----------------------------

What are some tactics agaisnt wolf? The person i play just spams Blaster then does a smash, then repeats, and due to laggy wifi, it's near impossible to perfect shield. Any suggestions?

I know ZSS's down smash screws wolf and other star fox creatures, but anything else?

You're probably better off asking the ZSS boards for help. I've also read that ZSS doesn't do well online at all. I'm not sure how much I can help but...

Assuming the person spams grounded blaster and does not vary the timing, you could try jumping (ZSS has a high jump), possibly airdodging, or rolling (only forward roll since her back roll is bad - roll should be more difficult to punish online due to lag) past the lasers until you reach the distance he likes to Fsmash. Predict the Fsmash and punish it. Fsmash has terrible ending lag.

You could also try jumping over the laser and side B at the right distance, though side B in general is much harder to space properly in lag.

If it really comes to it, you could also try ignoring the laser, walk forward, and doing a fast attack with decent range (I'm thinking dash attack) when at the proper distance. You'll want to spam dash attack then in case the laser interrupts the first one; the second should hit. Wolf's blaster doesn't have that much hitstun and takes forever to end. Wolf's Fsmash also has low priority as the first hit only does 5 or so damage. Dash attack should in theory do enough damage to go right through it. Furthermore, if he's blastering near the edge of the stage, successfully dash attacking him off of it will probably force him to up B recovery (it's hard to react in time given the lag to do the side B recovery), which is a free stock provided you edgehog it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1) SH without fast falling

Universal landing lag is 2 frames. Universal landing lag on fast fall is 6 frames. Don't quote me on the numbers, it's what I read elsewhere on the boards.

In theory then, performing an aerial close to the ground so it autocancels right after the hitbox comes out without fast falling would allow Wolf to perform another action almost immediately. However, without FF, it takes forever for the aerial to land (though not as much as other characters due to Wolf's natural fall speed). It therefore isn't as useful for punishing despite the increased chance of combos.

With that in mind, is SH wait Bair autocancel, no FF, useful?

• The timing should be different from SH FF Bair, which might make powershielding more difficult.
• Since it's slower, an opponent holding shield expecting the earlier FF Bair would have a smaller shield, which might increase the chance of a foot shieldpoke.
• It gives you more time to DI in the air, which might help against dash shield grab attempts.
• If an opponent is looking to shield grab, the lack of a Bair might bait them into grabbing early, allowing the delayed Bair to hit them as they drop their shield.
• Shine right after the autocancel might make it safer (maybe even completely safe?) on shield if the Bair is spaced poorly. If this is true, doing this even once might scare opponents from punishing a misspaced FF Bair too quickly, possibly increasing the chance of escaping punishment with a misspaced FF Bair.

I always use bair without FF EXACTLY for those reasons lol...it's just better than FF bair in every way. It's easier to space and bait moves with...

I use FF for Uair and sometimes Nair. Uair because I want to reach the ground asap for a juggle trap and nair if I want to combo

 

[Ishiey]

1) I thought it was 4 for FF... anyways, wouldn't the aerial's landing lag overwrite the regular landing lag? So technically it wouldn't matter... but I see the validity in your points, it does have it's number situations. For your last point, shine or jumpshine for slower OoS options after a bair are helpful but not to be abused, if your opponent catches on you'll be punished pretty badly.

2) How about jump while on the ledge and shine immediately, how many frames of vulerability are there in between? I used to think it was a good idea, but haven't used it for a long time. For telestepping, you can jump on the one frame in between but idk how many frames before the next action. We should bribe PI for more frame testing >_>

3) You can kinda do this on DeDeDe if you're frickin insane. But I don't think it's much more effective... You can't get too many shines on an opponent because of falling rate and all (usually like 2-3) so following them further offstage wouldn't make too much of a difference because you likely won't get extra shines in. Which charcters were you thinking of?

 

[castorpollux]

I always use bair without FF EXACTLY for those reasons lol...it's just better than FF bair in every way. It's easier to space and bait moves with...

I use FF for Uair and sometimes Nair. Uair because I want to reach the ground asap for a juggle trap and nair if I want to combo

u can cancel any extra frames of fast falling by buffering ANYTHING.

 

[impostoroak557]

What is the input to tech a Falco spike?

 

[SelfPossessed]

Updated questions. Added a new one.

1) Same landing lag it is. I'll use SH Bair (no FF) against opponents who are trying to PS or if their shield is low and I'm trying to footsie them.

2) Ishieymoro. Jump shine from ledge (no ledge drop, that's suicidal) still has enough vulnerability frames to get hit out of it. I don't know how much, but the CPU can do it reliably.

As for telestep/lightstep jump shine, it's hard to get the jumpshine off as you can't buffer it. Holding down too early causes a semiscar. Lightstep jumpshine doesn't give you enough distance to be useful. Telestep jumpshine appears to have a possible use, but getting a long distance telestep is hard as hell.

I'm putting this on my "maybe try mastering later" list.

3) D3 and maybe Falcon seem to be the only ones that this might work on. Also, if proven doable, I totally think it's worth it if you're at high percent up 1 stock and your opponent is trying to edgeguard you.

Only 3 characters fall faster than Wolf (normal fall, not fast fall). Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
1. King Dedede (1.95)
2. Captain Falcon (1.84)
3. Fox (1.83)
4. Wolf (1.80)

As such, only those 4 are possible. However, it's worthless to do on Fox or Wolf as you can actually make it back to the ledge after a Shine gimp. Note that the closest two after Wolf (Snake at 1.73 and Falco at 1.71) aren't worth doing even if it does work. You can make it back vs Falco and Snake can probably get eventually for a c4 recovery.

That leaves Falcon and D3. According to our frame data thread, shining D3 gives us 6 frame advantage. Shining Falcon gives us 4. That means Falcon can theoretically get out with an airdodge. However, if Falcon doesn't have his second jump, airdodging would kill him, so it can work against him too.

The real question is SDI. If they can SDI out of range for another shine, Wolf will have suicided for nothing.

4) Tell me about DAIR.

I'm hoping to implement FH Bair Dair crossover (no FF) into my game as an anti spotdodge. I'm not sure how well Dair is at punishing spotdodge lag frames though. It's unfortunate that FH Bair Dair can't shieldpoke worth crap. If it at least ate more shield on hit...ah well.

a) How safe is it?

Shieldgrab isn't a problem as I'm doing a crossover.
According to our frame data, Dair has 1 more frame of blockstun, but 10 more frames of landing lag when compared to Bair.
Dair has pretty decent shieldpush.
I will be sliding away from the opponent due to the crossover.

With that in mind, how safe am I from hitting a shielding opponent with this?

b) How well does it combo?

I know other people have tested it before, so I'm looking for their results. I've done a little bit myself in training mode and found that the consective hit meter was happy in two situations.
1) A few percents before it starts launching, Dair guarantees moves like Jab and Dsmash, possibly more.
2) When it begins launching, opponents appear to be unable to airdodge until near the peak of their trajectory. Uairs/Fairs/Bairs all seem to be able to hit them. At lower percents, grounded moves like Utilt and possibly Usmash if they are large enough hits as well.

However, since I haven't done this versus a real human opponent who is trying to escape, I don't know how reliable these combos are.

-------------------------------------

What is the input to tech a Falco spike?

1) Before the Dair hits, spam QCDI (quarter circle DI) towards the stage. As in, rotate your analog stick along the left or right side so there's always a left or right input. Do it FAST. This should teleport Wolf into hitting the stage when Falco lands his Dair. If you aren't hitting the stage, you're doing it too early/late/not fast enough.

2) Press shield just as you hit the stage. You will tech the spike.

 

[castorpollux]

SelfPossessed.... THIS THREAD SAYS SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!

SIMPLE

 

[Ishiey]

Lol @ Castor xD

Well, Peach frame data says that it takes 10 (20 when over 100%) frames for her to jump from the ledge until her next action and all 10 frames have invincibility, so... idk, Wolf isn't Peach, but it's possible. I don't doubt you though, I haven't had much success with it either.

From what I could tell with computers, they airdodge way too quickly after they get launched from a dair. Humans shouldn't be that quick, and something like dair > pivot grab at %s where it just begins to launch would be really sexy. I'll see if I can try out some more dair stuff soon. Did your tests on computers after the launch show up as a combo in training?

 

[SelfPossessed]

@ Castor

Then where do I ask these questions? D: I'd rather not clutter the main board with them...

@ Ishieymoro

2) It's just a guess, but I think the invincibility is on and off for the ledge stuff. Or frame data is wrong. Or I'm hallucinating when I get hit out of a ledge jump.

4) I did quick tests in training mode with two controllers at 2/3 speed (I kept screwing up FH Bair at slower speeds). After the Dair, I started spamming shield on a second controller. It's not the most accurate test of course, but I was just trying to get a general idea.

I highly doubt it would work on a real opponent, but I had a laugh doing a Dair on MK at 100ish percent and comboing it with a FH DJ Fair that showed up the consecutive hit meter for the KO.

As for what can combo out of it, I think it has to do with the type of stun Dair sends opponents in. I recall from that DK thread that you can airdodge early out of tumblestun, but not true hitstun. What kind of stun does Dair have then? Or is it something special like hitting shielding opponents off platforms where you can't do anything for a bit while spinning?

There's also the chance it's just training mode messing with some values. Hrmm.

 

[Ishiey]

I highly doubt it would work on a real opponent, but I had a laugh doing a Dair on MK at 100ish percent and comboing it with a FH DJ Fair that showed up the consecutive hit meter for the KO.

Exactly what happened to me lol. And this is why I stop paying attention to the training mode combo meter after about 50% >_>

As for what can combo out of it, I think it has to do with the type of stun Dair sends opponents in. I recall from that DK thread that you can airdodge early out of tumblestun, but not true hitstun. What kind of stun does Dair have then? Or is it something special like hitting shielding opponents off platforms where you can't do anything for a bit while spinning?

There's also the chance it's just training mode messing with some values. Hrmm.

I haven't been able to test to see if it's tumblestun or true hitstun, we should really check that out. How did Big O get that data anyways?...

 

[Palpi]

Isn't Marth's Fthrow and Dthrow one of the only moves with true hit stun?

 

[Zaffy]

You're probably better off asking the ZSS boards for help. I've also read that ZSS doesn't do well online at all. I'm not sure how much I can help but...

Assuming the person spams grounded blaster and does not vary the timing, you could try jumping (ZSS has a high jump), possibly airdodging, or rolling (only forward roll since her back roll is bad - roll should be more difficult to punish online due to lag) past the lasers until you reach the distance he likes to Fsmash. Predict the Fsmash and punish it. Fsmash has terrible ending lag.

You could also try jumping over the laser and side B at the right distance, though side B in general is much harder to space properly in lag.

If it really comes to it, you could also try ignoring the laser, walk forward, and doing a fast attack with decent range (I'm thinking dash attack) when at the proper distance. You'll want to spam dash attack then in case the laser interrupts the first one; the second should hit. Wolf's blaster doesn't have that much hitstun and takes forever to end. Wolf's Fsmash also has low priority as the first hit only does 5 or so damage. Dash attack should in theory do enough damage to go right through it. Furthermore, if he's blastering near the edge of the stage, successfully dash attacking him off of it will probably force him to up B recovery (it's hard to react in time given the lag to do the side B recovery), which is a free stock provided you edgehog it.

Thanks for the help, I'll try it.

I've never liked playing against wolf, i just fail :\

 

[Eightyeight]

Against Marth:

-at 0% he can fthrow>sidesmash and get an easy 23/4% at the start of the match or after a stock, can I avoid this anyway? DI?
-should i be trying to gimp marth offstage with bairs(or somethingelse)? im hesitant since i think i'll get hit with fair and end up SDing somehow, i think its an issue of spacing with me since i think bair has more range...
-how do i deal with dancing blades? just smash DI?

Againt Snake:
-what should i be doing when he pulls a dacus?
-should i attempt to dair him during recovery?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Against Marth:

-at 0% he can fthrow>sidesmash and get an easy 23/4% at the start of the match or after a stock, can I avoid this anyway? DI?
-should i be trying to gimp marth offstage with bairs(or somethingelse)? im hesitant since i think i'll get hit with fair and end up SDing somehow, i think its an issue of spacing with me since i think bair has more range...
-how do i deal with dancing blades? just smash DI?

Againt Snake:
-what should i be doing when he pulls a dacus?
-should i attempt to dair him during recovery?

Don't know, but you shouldn't be grabbed. Camp with laser spam.
Never jump offstage with Wolf.
Hold control stick away from it, and you'll just walk away.

Laser, grab if you have time, fsmash... I dunno, whatever works.
Please do, but within good reason

 

[JCav]

marth can get 3 f throws before a forward smash


AND GUYS I FOUND A WAY NOT TO GET HIT MY THE F THROW>DAIR THAT ISNT CHINEASE DI

 

[TheMike]

What are Wolf's attacks that trips the opponent and its best Follow-ups?

 

[Ishiey]

Never jump offstage with Wolf.

Lol, this from you? jk xD
Uhh, on topic, if you shine his upB with great timing you can get some interesting results but it's not worth the risk. Stick to lasers.

AND GUYS I FOUND A WAY NOT TO GET HIT MY THE F THROW>DAIR THAT ISNT CHINEASE DI

Please elaborate?... is it shine, fast falling?... don't keep secrets, they're no fun :<

What are Wolf's attacks that trips the opponent and its best Follow-ups?

Bair can trip at low %s, same with the first hit of ftilt, first hit of fsmash, and dtilt. Dtilt is probably your best bet though. You can follow a trip up with a quick boost smash or stutter step fsmash. On a trip from fsmash, a quick pivoted dsmash is a good choice.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Lol, this from you? jk xD

There can be no other.

 

[JCav]

its just shine, dont know why i didnt do that before lol saves me a lotta distress

 

[Insetick]

Hi, Wolf boards. I barely know what shield pressure is.

What is shield pressure?
What's the purpose of shield pressure?
What moves and techniques should I use as wolf to apply shield pressure?
Lastly, do you have any good vids of wolf (or any character) putting shield pressure to good use?

 

[Ishiey]

Hi, Wolf boards. I barely know what shield pressure is.

What is shield pressure?
What's the purpose of shield pressure?
What moves and techniques should I use as wolf to apply shield pressure?
Lastly, do you have any good vids of wolf (or any character) putting shield pressure to good use?

Well, since nobody else answered this, I'll give it a shot. This is all based off of my understanding and a little bit of looking up I did, so if I'm wrong or whatever, I'm counting on someone else to clear up my mistakes.

What is shield pressure, and what is it's purpose? - Shield pressure is applying pressure on your opponent's shield, in other words, finding a way to force a reaction from your opponent to get them out of their shield. Grabs are perhaps the best shield pressure, because they can "hit" through shields. Another useful form of shield pressure is through attacking your opponent's shield with safe attacks to lessen their shield and make them more vulnerable to being shield poked. If they try to punish you, since you used a safe move safely, it should be difficult for them and in the likely scenario where their punish attempt fails, you can punish their punishing attempt (example: shff bair to bait a shieldgrab, but since you're too far away, you get to fsmash them in the face). In essence, the purpose of shield pressure is to get through your opponent's shield and hit them for damage.

What moves does Wolf have that are good for shield pressure? - To read up on what makes a move safe (in case you don't already know), click this (somewhat outdated) link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170559 Wolf's safest moves overall are as follows: bair, fair, jab, dtilt (debatable), uair (debatable/attacking from below), laser (from a good distance). Dsmash isn't exactly safe, but it might be worth a mention seeing how useful it can be for shieldpokes.

Any good videos of Wolf (or anyone) putting shield pressure to good use? - This video MIGHT be a usable example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uMFc2uUjQk In particular, look at 0:09 to 0:23. JJ (perhaps one of the best Wolf mains if you want to look up his videos) uses a lot of Wolf's safer moves in an attempt to beat down Buuman's shield (fair, bair, jab (which he completed since the first hit caused damage, otherwise the full combo would not be safe)), and then goes in with a boost smash in attempt to shield poke since the shield is so small, or just break the shield altogether. However, that fails so he gets chaingrabbed.

That's all I've got for you as of now, hope that answered your question

 

[Eightyeight]

I'm having a hard time getting the timing down right for sideb cancel, any input?

 

[Ishiey]

This link (post #40 in case something gets messed up) shows the post I used way back when to learn how to flash cancel. It has served me well, and hopefully it will serve everyone else just as well. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4992103&highlight=cancel+timing#post4992103

 

[Eightyeight]

That was great I'll start practicing that.

Also one more thing, how do I cancel the lag from Fair, like sh fair ? do I do the fair right after i jump?

 

[Ishiey]

The lag from fair can be cancelled in a short hop if you initiate the fair almost instantly after you leave the ground, no fast fall.

 

[Seagull Joe]

K I'm tired of playing my wolf honorably and using just cool *** combos with such that could be punishable at times. Time to play as gay as possible. I'm gonna copy mitsurugi's wolf. Yall gonna be annoyed.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Did someone two stock you or something, Seagull? No need to go gay.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Did someone two stock you or something, Seagull? No need to go gay.

No I wasn't 2 stocked or beaten or anything like that, I just like his incredibly gay style. laser a billion times and bair when people approach to knock them back. Its so simple I should've thought of this myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3La8-TvV1hs <<<his style. he loses because he has no way of killing. So I combine my mindgames,combos, and such with his completely assholic style. Basically I'd be pikapika! or green ace for wolves. LOL

I'll perfect his style because it lacks finesse and such.

 

[castorpollux]

ewww disgusting. U'll never be good if you play like that