Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Thread

[Lightning Tiger]

I'm having my first tourney coming up soon.
Any tips/things i should look out for?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

I'm having my first tourney coming up soon.
Any tips/things i should look out for?

thats all a matter of experience. Watch for snakes, make sure to bucketbrake, know where to counterpick.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

marth can full hope fair and not get punished..................

marth just has to get one hit then stay back and wait for the g&w. anything the g&w does or approaches with, marth can punish.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth full hopping F-air is ASKING to get punished by SH N-air.

Marth always has to look out for G&W's fullhop F-air, which is NOT easy for him to punish at all, and able to punish Marth from a standing position.

 

[Ruuku]

marth can full hope fair and not get punished..................

Actually, from my matches against Chaz, it really seemed like the only thing he couldn't do with any safety was full hop f.air. However, if he stays at tip range mixing it up between shff f.air, empty sh, dtilt, rising and retreating pivot grabs/boost grabs, he becomes very annoying.

marth just has to get one hit then stay back and wait for the g&w. anything the g&w does or approaches with, marth can punish.

I don't see how this is even possible, unless you think that G&W has to approach with an attack. On most stages, Marth's range/speed over some of G&W's moves isn't significant enough for Marth to be able to camp G&W effectively without getting hit. Not only that, as far as I've experienced, G&W doesn't have trouble dealing with Marth at the edge. So Marth can't really abuse edge camping.

If you're talking about Battlefield-like stages, then Marth's advantage can become larger depending on the player's playstyle and if he knows that matchup well enough. Yet, the G&W may also use the platforms effectively to approach Marth.

 

[UTDZac]

Approaching Scenario #1:
Both Marth and G&W are standing far apart from each other. G&W runs at Marth and uses an attack. Marth reacts appropriately and punishes G&W. Easy

Approaching Scenario #2:
Both Marth and G&W are standing far apart from each other. G&W walks forward just a little bit, Marth does nothing. G&W walks forward a little bit more, Marth does nothing. G&W runs at Marth but then backs off at the right spacing distance, Marth twitches and does a retreating fair (but doesnt hit G&W). G&W runs back to his starting point, no damage was dealt.



Most G&Ws only think of AS#1 as the only possible option they have. Their character's aerials are strong and should beat anything Marth has right? Maybe if I keep trying at a different angle I'll succeed? However, a good Marth player will be able to adapt to any new-angled offensive approaches you through at him.

But what few G&Ws seem to realize is that AS#2 is a very effective strategy against a lot of campy characters. I'm not talking about what happened in the scenario as the exact movements that make it good, it's simply the act of doing nothing, or to be more clear not trying to advance the current state of the game. If this makes sense to you, high-five!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Scenario 2 is exactly how I win this matchup. This is crucial to baiting and punishing.

It's not like Marth can just wait this out, since human reaction time isn't perfect (something Marth would die for). I've gotten some players to stand around looking stupid as I just randomly run up and F-air their head by making my approach unpredictable in this way.

 

[Lord Chair]

Scenario 2 is exactly how I win this matchup. This is crucial to baiting and punishing.

It's not like Marth can just wait this out, since human reaction time isn't perfect (something Marth would die for). I've gotten some players to stand around looking stupid as I just randomly run up and F-air their head by making my approach unpredictable in this way.

And every single Marth you face is campy? What is your strategy against aggressive Marths who take away what stage control you have? What options does G&W have against perfect spacing? To which extent is this a hard matchup for G&W if you consider your previously called options to be superior to Marth's standard game? I'll post that what I PMed to Neb:

"

I think we should clear things up before we continue. So my argument was this...

1. G&W can punish Marth's aerials with a shield approach.
2. G&W has the ability to stop Marth's airgame.
3. It is difficult to attack G&W at a diagonal if he spaces smartly.
4. Marth's pressure game isn't very effectibe vs G&W.

You said G&W is limited when pressured, by pressured do you mean when hit, or when his shield is being harassed?

Both, G&W's options when actually getting hit. We can safely assume that the majority of the time that would be either Dancing Blade or Fair, Dancing Blade has barely any followups unless Marth would try to cancel it into grab/jab/ftilt/whatever so Fair is obviously the best pressure tool, together with dtilt.

G&W getting hit by a Fair puts him in the air, no doubt, unless you get hit by certain hitboxes which you somehow manage to DI to the stage. G&W is put in a position in which he can technically only airdodge, Fair or Nair.

Airdodge would be the most viable one, but can be baited under all circumstances. FF Fair often takes care of that, though admittedly airdodging immediately beats double Fair.

Nair does not outrange Marth's Fair, and would be an unwise decision overall.

Fair may beat a badly spaced FF Fair, but is too slow to beat double fair.

Then there's upB, which does make G&W leave the scene but puts him in a worse position overall.

So yes, G&W can escape the barrage. That's part of the game obviously, but his options are limited. Mostly because of what happens when he does escape the scenario and manages to get hold of his feet again.

From the ground, G&W has more options than from the air. He can decide whether he wants to Fair or to Bair, has grab options (though his grab range sucks), and has more flexibility in where he wants to go.

1. G&W can punish Marth's aerials with a shield approach.

His punishers are, when Marth's Fair (which is the one aerial we should be talking about) does not tip:
Grab
Fair
Nair
Bair
Ftilt(lol?)

I don't believe it leaves Marth open for Smash attacks.

Those are good punishers, more of them being able to rack up damage. With a well spaced approach however, it leaves G&W with the following:

Fair (only when Marth is advancing, and only if you can predict whether or not he'll go for another Fair)
Bair (same story)

That's it. You could use upB to get out of the situation only to have worse things to deal with, depending on the situation of course, perhaps it'll get you out of there. The danger is that this scenario can't happen too often. Double tippers provide immense shield pressure, and the 3rd or 4th Fair will often shield poke.

Dtilt is another thing Marth could decide to use, it provides probably even more shield pressure than Fair, and limits pretty much all of your options to jump out of shield. The only things it makes you lose are grab and dtilt, so that's not too big of a deal. In fact, if you are quick to react in that scenario, and your shield was capable of holding itself together, a Fair punish is pretty much guaranteed if Marth either didn't space it well, or decides to use dtilt in multiples. Both of which are rather common.

The rest of Marth's ground game is more of a punisher than a pressurer, so I won't go in-depth about ftilt, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash and hell even Jab.

2 G&W has the ability to stop Marth's airgame.

He certainly does, Fair has enough range to screw around with Marth's spacing, and Bair (even though good DI allows Marth to punish it even though it hits) outranges Marth's air game entirely. Horizontally that is. I'm not going into this since you are absolutely right.

3. It is difficult to attack G&W at a diagonal if he spaces smartly.

Spacing smartly is a difficult thing for G&W to do against Marth. It more of a 'do I fullhop or short hop' since G&W fullhopping beats Marth fullhopping and G&W shorthopping beats Marth shorthopping. However, Marth shorthopping beats G&W fullhopping etc. Fullhops on G&W's side are more easily punished than Fullhops on Marth's side, because G&W has no real diagonal angle to speak of (perhaps upB).

Marth's startup lag on his aerials is less present than G&W's. Marth's Fair comes out in frame 5 while G&W's Bair and Fair are frame 10. This means that G&W must awesomely space his aerials in order to safely hit Marth. Spacing requires the space to do so, against Marth at least. I recall kaak saying that he finally understood why Marth is such a hard matchup, and it's because G&W usually doesn't need too much stage control to do what he does best, but against Marth he's pretty much forced to fight for it because G&W cannot function against Marth while cornered.

What has this to do with diagonal spacing? Well, in order to prevent Marth from taking G&W from those angles, G&W needs the space to position himself for it. But G&W is in no way capable of getting this space all the time, not only because he isn't really built to do so, but also because of Marth's clear capability of doing so himself.

4. Marth's pressure game isn't very effective vs G&W.

That's just plain wrong, Marth's overall game lies in pressuring mostly, and if G&W weren't bothered by it this matchup would be in his favor. Aside of that, I think I have addressed this point fairly well in the other paragraphs, so I'll leave it for what it is.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

Sincerely,

Chair"

Just starting what looks like a fun discussion.

 

[UTDZac]

I feel intimidated by that large post with seemingly accurate/useful information. ><

I'll posts my response later by editing this post.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And every single Marth you face is campy? What is your strategy against aggressive Marths who take away what stage control you have? What options does G&W have against perfect spacing? To which extent is this a hard matchup for G&W if you consider your previously called options to be superior to Marth's standard game? I'll post that what I PMed to Neb:

Aggressive Marths are the ones you can bait all the time. Against perfect spacing, you advance to cover ground where Marth retreats and control the stage back at him. Predicting his next aerial and powershielding also works well.

G&W getting hit by a Fair puts him in the air, no doubt, unless you get hit by certain hitboxes which you somehow manage to DI to the stage. G&W is put in a position in which he can technically only airdodge, Fair or Nair.

U-air and Up-B can mess up Marth depending on spacing too. Keep in mind the wind hitboxes, which can launch Marth in the air putting him in a less favorable position.

1. G&W can punish Marth's aerials with a shield approach.

His punishers are, when Marth's Fair (which is the one aerial we should be talking about) does not tip:
Grab
Fair
Nair
Bair
Ftilt(lol?)

I don't believe it leaves Marth open for Smash attacks.

Don't forget powershielding either. On powershield, of course, G&W should be able to land any Smash he wants. And then Up-B and U-air are also underestimated options. G&W is also able to technically D-smash out of shield against an aerial F-air if he has good timing/prediction.

Dtilt is another thing Marth could decide to use, it provides probably even more shield pressure than Fair, and limits pretty much all of your options to jump out of shield. The only things it makes you lose are grab and dtilt, so that's not too big of a deal. In fact, if you are quick to react in that scenario, and your shield was capable of holding itself together, a Fair punish is pretty much guaranteed if Marth either didn't space it well, or decides to use dtilt in multiples. Both of which are rather common.

completely false. D-tilt's frame advantage is -7, as is its startup time. Between D-tilts, you have 14 frames to punish. If Marth commits to another D-tilt, he can get Jabbed or D-tilted out of shield. Marth can snuff predicted options with Forward-B and Jab, which are significantly less safe on block by far, and they technically trade with G&W's Jab out of shield.

Otherwise everything else is pretty much correct.

This matchup isn't 65/35 Marth or 7/3 Marth. It's just 6/4 at worst.

 

[UTDZac]

Sorry for another post, but can we move this discussion to the Matchup Discussion thread. That way others can join in if they want as well.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763

Thanks!

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Both, G&W's options when actually getting hit. We can safely assume that the majority of the time that would be either Dancing Blade or Fair, Dancing Blade has barely any followups unless Marth would try to cancel it into grab/jab/ftilt/whatever so Fair is obviously the best pressure tool, together with dtilt.

Dancing Blade is a lot like G&W's BAIR. You use it to rack up damage, like G&W does. And you use it for shield pressure. Like G&W does. It doesn't have to have a follow up.

HOWEVER, Marth can be punished by f-smash if the Marth is unwise about hitting G&W's shield with it.

2 G&W has the ability to stop Marth's airgame.

He certainly does, Fair has enough range to screw around with Marth's spacing, and Bair (even though good DI allows Marth to punish it even though it hits) outranges Marth's air game entirely. Horizontally that is. I'm not going into this since you are absolutely right.

But thats just it, no matter how we outrange we bair, it'll be punished. And fair has more then eough time for marth to punish, should it miss.

And yeah, airgame. Dogma can sweetspot f-smash me thru my bair.

3. It is difficult to attack G&W at a diagonal if he spaces smartly.

Spacing smartly is a difficult thing for G&W to do against Marth. It more of a 'do I fullhop or short hop' since G&W fullhopping beats Marth fullhopping and G&W shorthopping beats Marth shorthopping. However, Marth shorthopping beats G&W fullhopping etc. Fullhops on G&W's side are more easily punished than Fullhops on Marth's side, because G&W has no real diagonal angle to speak of (perhaps upB).

Marth's startup lag on his aerials is less present than G&W's. Marth's Fair comes out in frame 5 while G&W's Bair and Fair are frame 10. This means that G&W must awesomely space his aerials in order to safely hit Marth. Spacing requires the space to do so, against Marth at least. I recall kaak saying that he finally understood why Marth is such a hard matchup, and it's because G&W usually doesn't need too much stage control to do what he does best, but against Marth he's pretty much forced to fight for it because G&W cannot function against Marth while cornered.

What has this to do with diagonal spacing? Well, in order to prevent Marth from taking G&W from those angles, G&W needs the space to position himself for it. But G&W is in no way capable of getting this space all the time, not only because he isn't really built to do so, but also because of Marth's clear capability of doing so himself.

I recently played OmegaXF in a tourney. He's supposedly the best Marth in MI. At first I was nervous, thinking, no way i'm gunna win this. But I did, 2-1'd. Eventually I got to thinking "this must be a fluke" when he beat my two friends in tourney, friends who have good Marth exp. So i MM'd him. 2-0'd. By now I'm catching onto his stategy. So I MM him one more time. Here's what I learned.

An aggressive Marth is horrible against G&W. His Marth spent so much time up in my face that he was constantly left open for punishing.

Wheras Dogmas marth is far more safe, and as such, wrecks me.

Marth's pressure game isn't very effective vs G&W.[/B]

That's just plain wrong, Marth's overall game lies in pressuring mostly, and if G&W weren't bothered by it this matchup would be in his favor. Aside of that, I think I have addressed this point fairly well in the other paragraphs, so I'll leave it for what it is.

This I agree with 100%.

 

[DrPain]

Real Quick: I can do the smash boost AT with other characters, but am having a hard time with G&W. Since his dash attack doesn't have all that momentum, is it worth putting the effort into learning, or is it something cool that I'll never use?

 

[Lord Chair]

Real Quick: I can do the smash boost AT with other characters, but am having a hard time with G&W. Since his dash attack doesn't have all that momentum, is it worth putting the effort into learning, or is it something cool that I'll never use?

If the DACUS is what you're talking about, then no it's barely worth learning. While every character does have a DACUS, G&W doesn't get any profit out of it.

 

[gopobox]

Can anyone suggest some videos of pro G&W players that i can watch.
Just recently picked up G&W so i want to see what the pros do...

 

[UTDZac]

Can anyone suggest some videos of pro G&W players that i can watch.
Just recently picked up G&W so i want to see what the pros do...

I've got a bunch of tournament videos from today's local tournament. We had a bunch of power ranked players. I'll edit this post later as soon as they get uploaded, might take a day to upload them.

 

[gopobox]

kk thanks. Will watch them

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Hey guys, sorry for barging in like this in this heated marth debate. But since you guys are one of pika's best doubles partner choices and maybe could use a laugh or two at seeing a marth getting owned, I want to present you this question:

I was wondering if you guys could make use of this new AT with pikachu? I'm teaming with my bro (arc-thefallen-, plays TL and G&W) and am going to advance the technique in the future. Here's the original post AND video! ^_^ enjoy!

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8104088&postcount=14

Hope you guys like the video and seeing the characters get owned. But seriously, do you think you guys could make this fly? Better bucket KO options?

Also, very recently posted videos of some AT's (more like brought up "oh i never thought of that" tricks) that work specifically for Pika and G&W teams:

instant bucket ver.1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhdrcD2IgWc
instant pika bucket ver.2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao0gfvO6t2g

Thanks for the time. Please pm me if you liked the vid and have any neat ideas.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

wow. those bucket fills were amazing. kudos like crazy to you.


as for the first thing, idk. I suppose we could fair or nair thru it, but G&W's best option usually lies with "teammate edge guard, make opponent land back on the stage, punish like CRAZY the landing lag from recovering, or just recovering in general."

 

[1nconspikuous]

wow i haven't been to the gaw boards in a while... anyway, quick question.

i recently started playing with tap jump on so i could use OoS options for characters. gaw's upB is a great OoS option, or so i hear, but when exactly are you supposed to use it?

i know it's got invincibility frames at the beginning, but, for example, if i'm shielding an mk tornado, is it safe to upB whenever i want because it's invincible at the startup? (in which case, i'm doing it wrong because i've been hit OoS trying to upB, meaning i probably let vulnerable frames occur)

also, is it generally better to shield the hit and then upB, or upB before the hit connects -- again, for example, mk's dair on shield. (i'm just using mk as an example, no real significance to it.)

tl;dr, how do u use upB OoS with tap jump on effectively?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

mash it like i do? =/

really whenever you think you can hit them. generally, if theyre close enough, you will.

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

When you come up with Up+B, you deflect you're opponent. (I personally like it because it gives me a chance to think and breathe, especially against someone who's always on you like Diddy, DDD, MK.)

Basically, I like using it because you can use any aerial coming dow, like B-Air or F-Air.

The direction is always determined which direction you go, but Up+B is a nice attack you can easily follow through with.

 

[1nconspikuous]

okay i know the situations you can use upB in, but that's not the problem...

i'm wondering whether _between_ the shield and the upB, with tap jump on, there are vulnerable frames. because if you're invulnerable on shielding anything, i'm doing it wrong, because i've been hit trying to upB OoS.

also, this vulnerability would also determine whether it's safer to shield a hit (or multi-hit attack) and then upB, or to upB before a hit/multi-hit attack.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Sup?
I am a Sheik main and decided to alt G&W to cover IC's and I guess some times Pikachu.
I was wondering what the general idea of G&W is.

He seems to be this little black... it.. that out prioritizes most people while staying mobile in the air.
IDK though... does he really have any combo's?

 

[12345678910]

I think G&W's up b has something like 5 frames where you're stuck on the ground without any invincibility frames on up b.

Savior, G&W really isn't hard to get used to playing. Just learn how to space your bair and nair. Fair is usually used sparingly since you want it to be fresh for kills and edgeguarding. Try going for sweetspoting ledges with up b when you recover. Just some things that help your game a lot though you may already know them.

nair -> upB is a staple combo for G&W and if your opponent really don't know how to DI you maybe be able to get nair-> upB -> fair. Nair -> nair -> possibly more nairs is good on characters with poor aerial movement. G&W isn't a combo character like sheik

 

[saviorslegacy]

I think G&W's up b has something like 5 frames where you're stuck on the ground without any invincibility frames on up b.

Savior, G&W really isn't hard to get used to playing. Just learn how to space your bair and nair. Fair is usually used sparingly since you want it to be fresh for kills and edgeguarding. Try going for sweetspoting ledges with up b when you recover. Just some things that help your game a lot though you may already know them.

nair -> upB is a staple combo for G&W and if your opponent really don't know how to DI you maybe be able to get nair-> upB -> fair. Nair -> nair -> possibly more nairs is good on characters with poor aerial movement. G&W isn't a combo character like sheik

Yeah, I'm already comfortable with him.

Kinda thought that. I figured he would have some combo's though.


Hey, thanks for the info BTW!

 

[UTDZac]

I think G&W's up b has something like 5 frames where you're stuck on the ground without any invincibility frames on up b.

G&W's UpB:

Frame 1: Vulnerable.
Frame 2: Vulnerable.
Frame 3: Vulnerable. Windbox comes out.
Frame 4: Vulnerable.
Frame 5: Invulnerable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sup?
I am a Sheik main and decided to alt G&W to cover IC's and I guess some times Pikachu.
I was wondering what the general idea of G&W is.

He seems to be this little black... it.. that out prioritizes most people while staying mobile in the air.
IDK though... does he really have any combo's?

U-tilt combos into itself at low percents especially on fastfallers.

D-smash and U-smash at low percents combo into N-air.

Jab cancel grab is usually very reliable.

D-air -> D-tilt at low percents is a true combo.

N-air combos into itself and Up-B at low percents.

Up-B combos into F-air and U-air windbox at low percents.

Chef can start "combos" into various stuff.

D-throw combos into Jab, DA, and D-tilt on anyone who doesn't tech, and if they are lighter than Marth, they can always get D-smashed or F-smashed. Techchase regrab or DA is basically guaranteed on everyone if you guess right (even if they tech).

Fastfall N-air canceled before the final hit usually combos into U-tilt or D-smash.

Just for ****s and giggles, I got an 11 hit combo in training mode with G&W. U-smash -> B-air -> B-air. You can also get another hilarious 10 hit combo by doing U-smash -> N-air -> N-air -> Up-B, which in fact does more damage.

 

[Afropony]

If I'm shielding GaW's turtle is there which position should I move my shield into a certain position? If so, what position is that?

 

[DMG]

Move Shield Up/in front first, then down and maybe slightly in front of you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

U-tilt combos into itself at low percents especially on fastfallers.

D-smash and U-smash at low percents combo into N-air.

Jab cancel grab is usually very reliable.

D-air -> D-tilt at low percents is a true combo.

N-air combos into itself and Up-B at low percents.

Up-B combos into F-air and U-air windbox at low percents.

Chef can start "combos" into various stuff.

D-throw combos into Jab, DA, and D-tilt on anyone who doesn't tech, and if they are lighter than Marth, they can always get D-smashed or F-smashed. Techchase regrab or DA is basically guaranteed on everyone if you guess right (even if they tech).

Fastfall N-air canceled before the final hit usually combos into U-tilt or D-smash.

Just for ****s and giggles, I got an 11 hit combo in training mode with G&W. U-smash -> B-air -> B-air. You can also get another hilarious 10 hit combo by doing U-smash -> N-air -> N-air -> Up-B, which in fact does more damage.

wow thanks!

 

[uhmuzing]

Hey guys, I'm a brand new G&W. So, I've got a question..... How do I spike with the Dair? It just sends the opponent upwards/sidewards for me....

 

[Grey Belnades]

Hey guys, I'm a brand new G&W. So, I've got a question..... How do I spike with the Dair? It just sends the opponent upwards/sidewards for me....

You actually have to be on or really really close to them in order to spike.

 

[PentaSalia]

To Clarify it a bit
Dair only spikes on the first few frames as he pulls his key out and you literally have to be right next to your opponent
for it to work.

after that, as he's Fast falling with the key,it will always send your opponent upwards/sidewards if it connects.

To be honest,dair spike is only useful in the water or against characters that often put themselves in vulnerable positions
Snake's recovery is probably the best example but even then,it's risky and most snakes won't let you pull it off lol

 

[Hive Mind]

How many frames of the dash attack spike?

An opponent's on the ledge, use dash attack, would all frames spike?

I'm not exactly sure.

 

[VaJaJ]

Let's say im charging an upsmash when an mk is approaching me with tornado... if i release it at the right time will it go thru the tornado or will it just clank?

 

[Novabound]

It hits him out. It's hard to time it because nado is so fast, but if you do it once that match, the MK will be afraid to approach with tornado while charging an up smash.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

quick question
does game and watches f smash or d smash outrange snake's ftilt?

 

[DrPain]

I'm going to be teaming up with a Lucas, and we both have very little team play experience. What do I need to know? Friendly fire (or whatever it's called) won't be on, that's about it.

 

[PentaSalia]

if its not on then you can't have the full benefits G&W in teams o.o

usually with it on,you can save your opponent from sticky situation with uair especially with lucas as a partner.


idk..with it off...it makes it alot easier....no need to be careful about hitting your partner
i wouldn't be surprised if just spamming bair/nair and smashes worked here lol