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AT / Mechanics Compilation

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Ishiey

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Placeholder thread for all discovered ATs and mechanics. Will update over time. Please post links to sources when applicable!

Examples:
- canceling dash turnaround with an attack
- no more glide tossing
- general AD changes (high landing lag, very low "cooldown" where you're vulnerable before IASA?)
- in-depth ledge mechanic changes
 

Shaya

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There seems to be crouch cancelling (charged Megaman down smash killing at like 70% on a standing opponent but barely sending them into the blast zone while holding down/crouching).

The demo showed Megaman being able to up-b through low knockback moves (including multi hit moves like Pikachu's forward air).
 
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Raziek

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I can confirm Wave-bouncing still works, as I managed to wave-bounce a Thoron charge with Robin.
 

Ishiey

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Dash-dash-pivot is still in, just confirmed (the thing Marths and MKs did all the time in Brawl, kinda like a foxtrot followed by one motion of a dash dance for those unfamiliar).

I'm so happy.
 

C.J.

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^Foxtrotting

Skid cancel item pick-ups are back FWIW (running and letting go usually makes you skid/slide. Do it at an item, press "A" and you'll pick up the item and be able to act quickly w/o the annoying sliding animation and w/o DAing)
 

Raziek

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Oh, the Dash-cancel tilts/grabs/etc. that Reflex & I looked at in the demo are still in as well.
 
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C.J.

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Instant throws are in

Brawl pivot grabs are still there, only exclusively from a run since out of a dash are pivot tilts (at least I haven't been able to pivot grab out of ID)
 
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Strong Badam

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Yeah, B-reversing is in. Denti and I have been b-reversing fireballs and pills today.

Might not technically be an AT but some of us have taken to letting the opponent grab the edge, then "taking" it from them during their ledge grab animation (forcing them to pop up and out in a lil animation), and then doing a quick ledgehop aerial to hit them. Works well with chars with strong bairs.

There are definitely some moves with armor. Not sure which or how much they have.

I was able to perform a boost grab with Wario. Standard inputs: begin a dash attack and then input Grab during the startup frames. Did not thing to try Boost Pivot Grab, will try tomorrow.

I wasn't able to Glide Toss with any of the characters I tried with (Wario, Diddy Kong, and Link). I could throw an item during the start of my roll, but never got any distance, despite Wario and Diddy having good ones in Brawl.
 
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D

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There's definitely ledge canceling.

For example Peach can ledge cancel the new turnip pulling lag by running over a ledge as you hit the input, I've tested this on stream several times.
 
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Ishiey

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^ That saddens me :<

I hear that jab resets (like they were in Brawl) are in, but after the 3rd one they'll be automatically freed. Can anyone test/confirm?

I think there may be some buffering, but I'm still not sure because I don't trust my perception of reality.

On ledge cancelling, is it possible to ledge cancel aerials like in Melee? So far my testing says no.

On dash-cancel attack, what attacks specifically have been confirmed to work out of it for all characters? I'm not sure if it's my technical inability but I can't get much besides ftilting behind me to work out.
 

Krynxe

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I hear that jab resets (like they were in Brawl) are in, but after the 3rd one they'll be automatically freed. Can anyone test/confirm?
This is true. The fourth jab will put them right onto their feet with little to no lag for them. Jab locks will now be a way to accumulate a little more damage before comboing into an attack
 

Ishiey

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This is true. The fourth jab will put them right onto their feet with little to no lag for them. Jab locks will now be a way to accumulate a little more damage before comboing into an attack
Thanks! Is it confirmed that the wake-up options are like Brawl (forced regular getup) or like Melee (whatever you were inputting before you got locked), or does it differ depending on how many times you've been locked? Imma try to test this more myself later but only having computers makes it tough :/
 

Strong Badam

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Jab "resets" seemed to work entirely as they did in Brawl. Never did more than 1 or 2 before doing something else so I'm not sure if there's some limit coded in.
 

Overswarm

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I don't know about the limits, but I know Megaman can use his 3x jab into a grab off the ground, so it at least works for 3.

DI is entirely different in this game. Holding down actually lessens your vertical knockback. It's a difference of about 12-15% from what I have tested so far.

Grabbing the ledge from the opponent doesn't seem to lead into anything confirmed, but it does put them in a poor position.

You can cancel weak hitstun entirely by being hit slightly above the ground. You land and hitstun is entirely canceled. I've been using Megaman's crash bomb on the ledge, then jumping from the ledge and getting hit by the final explosion and it snaps me to the stage and allows me to instantly grab. I've had similar issues with using megaman's pellets on a falling opponent and them immediately jabbing me when they hit the ground (something they can't do when on the ground in the first place).

SDI is no longer in, but regular DI is in but works entirely differently. You no longer have to return to neutral to "get out of attacks". Megaman's dash attack is almost entirely worthless and you can grab MM out of its lag by SDIing through it. Pika's d-smash can be SDI'd out of, but I am unable to punish it. With a c-stick, maybe. Mario's dair is near worthless. I expect the c-stick on the Wii U version to make this much easier.

Instead of smashing the c-stick from neutral, just wiggle it between two points. When you first start doing it, just set your 3DS down and wiggle your index finger on it between two close inputs.

Ledge canceling definitely back, got one with Megaman and Link in the demo.

RAR is back.

Short hop air dodge -> aerial is a decent approach if you have a fast nair that combos into something (see: Mario).
 

Overswarm

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Pikachu's down+b goes through platforms and stage now, but sometimes not through the stage near the ledge? I don't get it.

Villager's pocket grab not only grabs it, but makes the projectile villager's during the length of that projectile. You can steal Pika's thunder and the remaining thunder will hit Pikachu and then you still have the pocketed thunder.
 

Ishiey

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Pikachu's down+b goes through platforms and stage now, but sometimes not through the stage near the ledge? I don't get it.
It goes through the top platform on BF but not the side ones, so I think it's something related to how much open space there is above Pika?
 

Strong Badam

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I'd be very concerned if that was the case, as that was a For Glory/Omega version of a stage (the train one).

EDIT: I was playing on For Glory mode against a Wario and that nonsense Overswarm linked happened. He died at 60 off the right blastzone to a Bowser Upair from the center of the stage.
 
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Dabuz

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Grabbing the ledge from the opponent doesn't seem to lead into anything confirmed, but it does put them in a poor position.

It actually does lead into guaranteed stuff. You have to be fast but try for example: Grab ledge from someone with Megaman, IMMEDIATELY jump back and bair, the opponent is stuck in a small window where they jump backwards and have no control over their character, hard to get used to at first, but super worth learning. Can't be Died, canceled with a move, jump, ect. until the small jumpback window is over.
 

Strong Badam

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Might not technically be an AT but some of us have taken to letting the opponent grab the edge, then "taking" it from them during their ledge grab animation (forcing them to pop up and out in a lil animation), and then doing a quick ledgehop aerial to hit them. Works well with chars with strong bairs.
We (me, Denti, Sethlon, AeroLink, Oracle) really, really, really want to name it The Coldsteel. And have commentators say "Nothin' personnel, kid" when it happens.

I've never wanted something more in my life.
 

Raziek

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See, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the edge steal mechanic is general enough that I really don't think it should be getting a stupid name.
 

Shaya

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I'll echo that.
Commentators can do what they want as a rhetoric or reference for it themselves.

Is the term "trumping" made within the smash community or did it come from some official publication? If that's the case it should be the word we use?
 

Overswarm

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It actually does lead into guaranteed stuff. You have to be fast but try for example: Grab ledge from someone with Megaman, IMMEDIATELY jump back and bair, the opponent is stuck in a small window where they jump backwards and have no control over their character, hard to get used to at first, but super worth learning. Can't be Died, canceled with a move, jump, ect. until the small jumpback window is over.
Are you sure? We were able to air dodge in the demo. I've played some on the japanese DS but didn't test it there.
 

Neo Zero

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Positive, you have to be really REALLY fast.
I believe you can as well. Believe being the keyword. I slowed the scenario down in training mode and was able to get a Bair off before I saw any sort of animation (jump or otherwise).The timing is VERY tight though, even half a second to late and they at least begun the animation of doing something. Of course, until the games formally out world wide, I have no better way to test myself, but it certainly seems to line up with what Dabuz is saying.
 

Overswarm

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Yoshi does it repeatedly throughout the second set with his down+b, commentators take note of it in the opening minute of the second game.
 

Overswarm

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So, ban infinites? c:
That's pretty hard to enforce and might not be a good thing to do. It may be that ZSS is simply a new infinite character and she needs that to compete. Enforcing it anyway is a nightmare. Can ZSS d-smash -> footstool -> neutral b once? Can she do that, then d-smash but not footstool? Can she do that and footstool but not neutral b again? Only 3 iterations? What?

Does this count if it is character specific? Are there wall-based infinites? What if there's a doubles infinite, is that banned as well? How would you define that as being banned?

Wait until it's a problem, then legislate. Otherwise you might as well ban Little Mac's OHKO too.

If you were to ban infinites, I'd use the wording:

"Any chain of attacks that can be done infinitely in succession and cannot be broken by an opponent's input are banned.

To clarify with an example, you may use Zero Suit Samus' down smash to footstool to neutral b reset, but you may not do another full iteration. A legal combo would be downsmash to footstool to neutral b to downsmash to footstool. Doing a neutral b to end that chain would constitute another full cycle."

and cross my fingers and hope it never comes up


It'd be easier to just ban the character itself, honestly. Another reason to wait until it is an issue. Banning things piecemeal is an enforcability disaster. See: metaknights using the dimensional cape glitch for just two taps to mess up their opponent's timing and having no judge present.

What do you do if someone says "This ZSS player infinited me for 4 iterations, but no one was around" and the ZSS player denies it?

*tears hair out*

Someone get Kel in here, he speaks japanese. Make him write a letter to Sakurai asking for a patch.
 

Hylian

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This infinite apparently only works on Robin and is a bug with how ZSS's footstool interacts with Robin.

*shrugs*
 

Dabuz

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^Oh thank god.

Also, the ban infinites thing was a joke (damn you internet for no sarcasm emote) but yeah, i am a bit concerned about other infinites if this is day 3 tech. Sadly enforcing bans on infinites it...difficult, you brought up a perfect comparison with MK's IDC where players would abuse it for a tap or two and no one could really catch them.
 
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