Really long read on a convo about Olimar:
Phil Nye 1:25 pm
Sup
FlameWaveK 2:52 pm
sup
I was napping, my bad!
Phil Nye 2:52 pm
Oh, ok
FlameWaveK 2:52 pm
I hear someone is having troubles with a quarter-sized astronaut
or like
the whole board
Phil Nye 2:53 pm
yeah, he's dumb
FlameWaveK 2:53 pm
He's no more dumb
then snake
or meta
or falco
really
But lets get down to business
What about Oli bothers you?
Phil Nye 2:54 pm
approaching mainly, I feel I sometimes get the idea that he has issues immediately punishing you if you hit his shield (unless at death percents), but he's a hard bugger to put him in that situation, while avoiding getting pivot grabbed
FlameWaveK 2:55 pm
if the olimar is just
waiting for you to run at him and pivot grabbing
most of time, run forward aurasphere/SH aurasphere -> mix-up from there deals with that
but that folds to fsmash most of the time
and fsmash is dealt with by fair approaches
Phil Nye 2:56 pm
so AS trumps grab?
FlameWaveK 2:56 pm
mostly yes
just due the nature of the grab
if you time it the aurasphere release
he gets hit and you get released
or you could roll behind him
or sidestep
Phil Nye 2:57 pm
oh
FlameWaveK 2:57 pm
sometimes you even have enough time to fair OOS
Phil Nye 2:57 pm
I have a hard time getting the timing to sidestep the grab
it's a little later, right?
FlameWaveK 2:58 pm
but I find myself gettng grabbed out of jumpsquat most of the time
depends on the spacing
its the same as most other slow grabs in front of him
otherwise its a little slower
Phil Nye 2:58 pm
hmm
Phil Nye 2:59 pm
then there's trying to kill purples/getting rid of them, it seems they always retreat before I can dent them
FlameWaveK 2:59 pm
You kill them whenever its convient [whenever you can't get killed for killing them]
tbh I kill both blues and purples
at higher %s
upsmash will always kill you
but only those 2 grabs will kill you from grabs
Not killing pikmin is like
one of the biggest mistakes I see people make in MU
Phil Nye 3:01 pm
hmm
FlameWaveK 3:01 pm
they rather go for a failed attempted at gimping
and guess what
now olimar is onstage
he still his purple
FlameWaveK 3:01 pm
and you're on the ledge
not a good position to be in
Oh yeah
and besides whites
you really shouldn't need to knock off pikmin most of the time
at least thats how I feel
Phil Nye 3:02 pm
So just let them be?
FlameWaveK 3:02 pm
Yeah
if you're knocking them off
the whiff is easier to punish due to extra hitlag
if you absolutely must get them off
retreating nair is the safest way
Phil Nye 3:03 pm
I'm assuming if you are playing correctly, you shouldn't be getting like x3 of them on you so much?
FlameWaveK 3:03 pm
yeah
Phil Nye 3:03 pm
that makes sense
FlameWaveK 3:03 pm
The most is like
1-2 if you're playing properly
[the secret to playing in kill % though is letting them stick on you (smirk)]
Phil Nye 3:04 pm
is it because it gives extra duration to your smashes?
FlameWaveK 3:04 pm
eh
thats icing on the cake
you just want extra shieldstun and damage
you're gonna die around 110 anyway? so why not?
Phil Nye 3:05 pm
makes sense
FlameWaveK 3:05 pm
The only other things that won't really kill you at 110 are like
FlameWaveK 3:05 pm
Fair/Bair near the middle of the stage
Phil Nye 3:06 pm
hmm, yeah, olimar's aerials are deceptively beefy sometimes
FlameWaveK 3:06 pm
they're pretty good
Phil Nye 3:06 pm
esp. the side hit for dair, it kills pretty well
FlameWaveK 3:06 pm
the only reason I think sideB isn't free approach bait
Phil Nye 3:06 pm
like the non-spike version
FlameWaveK 3:06 pm
is because the fair behind it
lucario isn't always fast enough to fair him after he tosses unless you jump and fair at the same time
Phil Nye 3:07 pm
I see
Phil Nye 3:08 pm
Oh yeah, and working around usmash
how does one do it?
FlameWaveK 3:08 pm
how so?
landing?
fighting his shield?
Phil Nye 3:08 pm
yeah, or touching his shield
FlameWaveK 3:08 pm
don't hit his shield with dair
dair RIGHT on top of it
upsmash will clank
Phil Nye 3:09 pm
Like make him whiff?
oh
do you have the advantage when that happens?
FlameWaveK 3:09 pm
if they're just buffering upsmashes like a derp
that ussually deals with it
I, have no clue
but
FlameWaveK 3:10 pm
I've never been punished with another upsmash from doing that
Phil Nye 3:10 pm
cool
I'll try that out
FlameWaveK 3:10 pm
after that clank
Phil Nye 3:10 pm
then there's landing
FlameWaveK 3:10 pm
its best to dair again or FF airdodge
that was the landing advice :X
Phil Nye 3:10 pm
oh
kk
FlameWaveK 3:10 pm
otherwises just try to stay awayyyy
or realise when he's camping your landing
I jump for joy when olimars chase me with uairs
because on a good day
or if its a yellow
you can SDI below him LOL
Phil Nye 3:11 pm
yeah yellows seem booty at killing w/ smashes
FlameWaveK 3:11 pm
otherwise
FlameWaveK 3:12 pm
just sdi up and hop you can punish or somethin
oh
and edgeguarding really
until you learn the angles where he's ****ed or you can realistically take a stock from him by attacking him
Phil Nye 3:13 pm
Cool
FlameWaveK 3:13 pm
IE: the angles he can't just derp jump airdodge/whistle from the attack you run offstage and throw at him
just stage on stage.
throw a BAS to scare him or something
FlameWaveK 3:14 pm
its almost always better to have olimar on the ledge rather then to go for a glorious gimp
Phil Nye 3:14 pm
oh so staying onstage is usually good?
FlameWaveK 3:14 pm
yeah
Olimars ledge options SUCK
oh and
just to clarify
that new fancy upB tether ****?
tis got no invincibility
so its pretty much your fault if you respect it
Phil Nye 3:15 pm
oh lol
FlameWaveK 3:15 pm
tilt that ****
the only reason it exists is so we can't just stutterstep fsmash at the ledge for free
like we could before
Phil Nye 3:16 pm
So I don't get it, they'll try to hit you w/ tether?
FlameWaveK 3:16 pm
you know what I'm talking about right?
denti did it a few times on FD vs trela
FlameWaveK 3:16 pm
he Tether'd and it made him land onstage immedietly
from the ledge
Phil Nye 3:16 pm
oh yeah
FlameWaveK 3:16 pm
lemme get a timestamp
Phil Nye 3:16 pm
Now I know what you're talking about
FlameWaveK 3:17 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTApEnnncWQ#t=5m5s
Phil Nye 3:18 pm
kinda like they're "light stepping" as the Wolf's call it? Not exactly the same thing, but similar?
FlameWaveK 3:18 pm
sorta
actually yeah
its pretty similar
Phil Nye 3:18 pm
I see
FlameWaveK 3:18 pm
this thing also makes our ES easier to punish unfortunetely :<
FlameWaveK 3:18 pm
but oh well
Phil Nye 3:18 pm
:-(
FlameWaveK 3:19 pm
Really though
To be honest
Phil Nye 3:19 pm
I think I remember RB doing that to Trela at Gen 2 iirc
FlameWaveK 3:19 pm
This isn't a MU you can learn overnight
Ya'll gotta play Olimar on a consistant basis to do good vs him
because theres a lot of stuff you have to pay attention to that you normally don't really have to
Phil Nye 3:20 pm
interesting
FlameWaveK 3:20 pm
You gotta calculate and recalculate risk reward many different times
Phil Nye 3:20 pm
I'll see if I can get more practice v. the Olimar I play
FlameWaveK 3:20 pm
due to the nature of pikmin line-ups
Oh and
I think I remember you saying something bout how fresh stock olimar coming in was dumb
let me tell you how I deal with it
You gotta be quick on the eyes but
You basically gotta wait for the pluck
Phil Nye 3:21 pm
Yeah
FlameWaveK 3:21 pm
and then dip
Phil Nye 3:21 pm
I remember saying something like that
dip?
FlameWaveK 3:21 pm
run
away
Phil Nye 3:22 pm
Oh
FlameWaveK 3:22 pm
get out
ussually shield/roll is sufficient
I always shield if its some line-up that won't kill me
Phil Nye 3:22 pm
I think I have an idea to add on that
Yeah, I was about to say
Phil Nye 3:22 pm
wouldn't the first pikmin determine whether to stay in shield or run?
FlameWaveK 3:22 pm
mhmm
not only the 1st one though!
Phil Nye 3:23 pm
oh
FlameWaveK 3:23 pm
if he has like
white -> red
or yellow -> red
thats bad too!
I get killed by red aerials more then I get killed from grabs
speaking of which
Phil Nye 3:24 pm
hmm
FlameWaveK 3:24 pm
Something really confident olimars will do
IE: just anuar because he's a bully
is when they know lucario is in god aura %
Phil Nye 3:24 pm
lol
FlameWaveK 3:24 pm
they'll purposely let their pikmin line-up be small with lethal pikmin
because they'll die from a random poke anyawy
*anyway
I've hesitated a few times before because something like
purple/red/blue
or triple blues
tbh
Phil Nye 3:26 pm
oh yuck
FlameWaveK 3:26 pm
a lot of the times I just try to manipulate it so the opponent has Reds and Yellows
and how I win/get in
is dependant on when the have red/yellow/white/blue if I'm feeling gutsy
Phil Nye 3:26 pm
hmm
FlameWaveK 3:27 pm
so yeah
Phil Nye 3:27 pm
I'm kinda glad Aura isn't labeled under "fire", or I feel we'd have a lot more trouble w/ fire
*red
FlameWaveK 3:27 pm
I would be mad
if reds couldn't be killed by aura
Phil Nye 3:27 pm
Because that's basically how pika gets bombed a bit in the MU
FlameWaveK 3:27 pm
I'd like the match-up a lot yesssssss
but its still be doable
*less
Phil Nye 3:28 pm
lol
FlameWaveK 3:28 pm
actually, on that thought, since it'd be more pikmin that don't kill me from throws
I might be ok that
*with that
but just a passing thought
Phil Nye 3:28 pm
So how would you deal with an Olimar that seems to "download" you a lot more?
FlameWaveK 3:29 pm
as I've never beaten rich I don't know if I can answer that question
Phil Nye 3:29 pm
because I always do really awesome until last stock
FlameWaveK 3:29 pm
it what kind abuse of information
are they doing?
hard reads?
iron-wall defense ?
Phil Nye 3:30 pm
yeah
FlameWaveK 3:30 pm
Well
my mindset
Phil Nye 3:30 pm
Oh, they're usually walling hard
FlameWaveK 3:30 pm
is to think in terms of respect/disrespect
in terms of pressure
FlameWaveK 3:31 pm
when I started thinking about it that way
His kill set-ups from a slight advantage, neutral, or his hard punishes from his defense
got easier to deal with for me
Oh and if they're walling hard
Phil Nye 3:32 pm
hmm
FlameWaveK 3:32 pm
you don't HAVE to approach them
... unless they're just like
standing there powershielding to let the timer run
if they're tossing **** at you
bas gets through
Phil Nye 3:33 pm
so you have to think about the status quo?
FlameWaveK 3:33 pm
if its grounded toss
they're opened up
define status quo
Phil Nye 3:33 pm
just be like "percent doesn't matter, stock does" and ignore the percent since at that point anything can kill you anyways
FlameWaveK 3:33 pm
mhmm
Phil Nye 3:33 pm
cool
FlameWaveK 3:33 pm
although
in long sets
you can turn that ignorance of the status quo to your advantage with a gutsy ender
but thats just me
I always want to things that would be "clever" or "tricky" or "dumb" :x
thats really
a lot of reason I probably enjoy fighting olimar
Phil Nye 3:35 pm
hmm, how interesting
Phil Nye 3:35 pm
and of course, on top of all this, is it correct to use grabs when they're whistling, and of course SDI nair?
how do you SDI nair -> smash, btw?
FlameWaveK 3:35 pm
Up
to dair
or diagonally to force palm
I think I made an olimar player really mad
when I SDI'd nair to force palm for the game
LOL
Phil Nye 3:37 pm
lol
Speaking of which, I think the landing FP is probably pretty good for this MU
Phil Nye 3:37 pm
esp. for "waiters"
FlameWaveK 3:37 pm
landing FP
Phil Nye 3:37 pm
yeah like frame 1 FP
FlameWaveK 3:37 pm
is the thing that made this MU more bearable for us
Phil Nye 3:38 pm
It certainly helps for me
FlameWaveK 3:38 pm
as olimar's cute little tether thing made it more bearable for him
Phil Nye 3:38 pm
lol
FlameWaveK 3:38 pm
speaking of which
How consistant are your juggles/landing traps
Phil Nye 3:38 pm
They're better, I'm doing good at using uair for forcing a reaction
FlameWaveK 3:39 pm
how aboutttt
Phil Nye 3:39 pm
although I don't get dairs as easily as like Trela, I'll usually just get AS or nair
FlameWaveK 3:39 pm
lets say he's about..
Phil Nye 3:39 pm
I'll also tip utilt on the opponent to reset them back up
FlameWaveK 3:39 pm
upsmash tipper height
you uthrow him or something
Phil Nye 3:39 pm
I use uthrow sometimes, yes
FlameWaveK 3:39 pm
how do you punish his landing in that situation?
Phil Nye 3:39 pm
oh
Usually AS
or at least I try
FlameWaveK 3:40 pm
thought so
a big thing in this MU
is that you want
more relaunches
rather then damage
that kinda **** makes olimars nervous you know
Phil Nye 3:40 pm
sometimes I regrab or DA after it, but they're sometimes too far to get
FlameWaveK 3:40 pm
when you don't let them land
Phil Nye 3:40 pm
tight
FlameWaveK 3:40 pm
if thats the case
you want to run -> flash aurasphere towards them
then cancel it... or hold
Phil Nye 3:41 pm
mindgames...
I like it
FlameWaveK 3:41 pm
most of the time
they whistle
-> roll -> grab
FlameWaveK 3:41 pm
or just shield cancel
to dash grab
Phil Nye 3:42 pm
how long does whistle take to finish if you can roll to grab?
FlameWaveK 3:42 pm
either one
Phil Nye 3:42 pm
or is it getting the surprise factor on them being behind them and whatnot?
FlameWaveK 3:42 pm
surprise factor mostly
not many people have fast enough reactions to get away from that
so you can ussually grab em
sometime shield drop to dash attack is better too
FlameWaveK 3:44 pm
the basic stuff is really DA or grab for airdodge/whistle
all the other mix-ups are really just to distract them from those options
Phil Nye 3:45 pm
cool
FlameWaveK 3:45 pm
Anyways
is there anythig else you wanna discuss?
concerning olimar?
Phil Nye 3:45 pm
stages?
FlameWaveK 3:46 pm
Battlefield has the perfect size/platform arrangement
just enough that lucario's zoning isn't harder
but its easier to approach and juggle olimar
If you want to go all out
Yoshis
its harder to zone olimar there, in my personal experiances
but you give him a lot less space to work with
Phil Nye 3:47 pm
hmm
FlameWaveK 3:47 pm
FD is great
not too bad or too good for either side
and
Smashville is smashville
FlameWaveK 3:48 pm
Now
I THINK castle siege is phenominal counterpick
the 1st and 3rd are extremely good vs olimar and the 2nd isn't really that bad at as people make it seem
Phil Nye 3:49 pm
Oh
FlameWaveK 3:49 pm
1st gives you a really good spot to hide under pikmin toss and the layout compromises olimar's defensive play
Phil Nye 3:49 pm
I'm assuming Frigate's not so good?
FlameWaveK 3:50 pm
3rd is FD with olimar's plucks nerfed
a-
its
backfired
a lot
FlameWaveK 3:50 pm
and a lot of olimars are comfortable there
Phil Nye 3:50 pm
for me I got a 2-stock, then he brought it back
so idk, but I heard it's not so good
FlameWaveK 3:50 pm
Its all dependant
on how long the 1st stage sticks around
and I barely average more then a minute at most
Phil Nye 3:51 pm
that makes sense
FlameWaveK 3:51 pm
with the rest being on the 2nd half
so I stopped CPing it
Phil Nye 3:51 pm
yeah, the second half is kinda meh v. him
FlameWaveK 3:51 pm
Olimars aren't gutsy enough to CP it themselves for some reason
Phil Nye 3:51 pm
so much camp potential
FlameWaveK 3:51 pm
its not even that
Phil Nye 3:51 pm
and holding the middle's evil
FlameWaveK 3:51 pm
its the platform in the middile + the fact he gets saved a lot by platforms
Phil Nye 3:52 pm
oh yeah, and those plats that pop out from the sides
FlameWaveK 3:52 pm
IF metaknight didn't exist
I'd advocate Brins
but clearly thats not the case :>
So yeah
all and all
Phil Nye 3:53 pm
cool
FlameWaveK 3:53 pm
FD, BF, YI
Try to stay away from
Phil Nye 3:53 pm
stick to neutrals
or neutral-ish one
*ones
FlameWaveK 3:53 pm
oh
forgot about that
Pokemon is really good too
Phil Nye 3:53 pm
I've been loving ps1 in general lately
really good for lucario
FlameWaveK 3:54 pm
its just me
but
AVOID LYLAT like the plague
FlameWaveK 3:54 pm
stage layout heavily favors olimar
Phil Nye 3:54 pm
I hate lylat mainly from playing t0mmy there and getting molested by gimp + gyro stuff there
FlameWaveK 3:54 pm
and purps seem common there
Phil Nye 3:54 pm
yuck
def not picking it
FlameWaveK 3:55 pm
besides that
I personally dislike halberd, but its probably not that bad
and after that the only favorite olimar CP left is delfino
Phil Nye 3:56 pm
I'd think it's probably not so good for Lucario, merely because of the wider stage for camp + low ceiling
*for halberd anyways
FlameWaveK 3:56 pm
its definetely not good
but its not bad either
Phil Nye 3:56 pm
then yeah, delphino sounds nasty
FlameWaveK 3:56 pm
Delf is lame because more blues
but otherwise I'm completely fine with it
Phil Nye 3:56 pm
mainly because we saw what happened w/ M2K v. brood
FlameWaveK 3:57 pm
its just blues that bother me
Phil Nye 3:57 pm
blues are really versatile it seems
FlameWaveK 3:57 pm
because I take olimars to Castle so much I know how to deal with olimar walkoff nonsense
and honestly
if you're doing it right
its just a volotiole point where either character can take a huge lead
walkoffs
Phil Nye 3:57 pm
yeah
I think if you could uproot oli and make him have to land into your grab, that would be good for those walkoff parts
or land near your grab
lol
FlameWaveK 3:58 pm
or just
Phil Nye 3:58 pm
no way he's going to make it that easy
FlameWaveK 3:58 pm
throw Auraspheres at him if he's trying to camp the walk off
FlameWaveK 3:58 pm
as most try to do
is that all?
Phil Nye 3:59 pm
yep I think so
btw, do you mind if I post this convo on SWF?
FlameWaveK 4:00 pm
Go ahead
Phil Nye 4:00 pm
kk, thanks
