Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

[Vyse]

this isn't necessarily an argument about the stage list

this is against the bbr as a whole, the stage list is simply what caused this to be made.

Yeah I realise, hence why I tried to divert this discussion back to where it belongs.

this is like saying you're never gonna get hit by the lava on brinstar, which is even less rare to happen then the cars

and the fact that they will still kill you/do ******** amounts of damage is there. It isn't a factor that should be allowed into the matches,

And you are right. But I also believe I am right. Both views are valid and so it's up to the community to find a compromise somewhere.

if it is we might as well use items. Cuz you know, we know how they work and how to avoid them, so why not.

Funilly enough, I wouldn't mind this at all and am open to the idea.

 

[link2702]

imo the bbr has always been biased on lots of things....not gonna mention anyone or anything in particular...buuuuut....lets just say that i definatly know they are.

it seems the omen many folks predicted a looooong time ago might be getting close to coming true...


...the brawl community is falling apart....

perhaps sakurai was more clever then we originally thought.....he did state taht he never wanted smash to be competitive.....and now looking at brawl and its current situations....even after the community constantly tried and tried to make this "party" game, work as a competitive fighter.....it has slowly started to crumble...


whether its from the mk plague, the over-defensive campy nature of the game, the fact that the game forces luck into EVERY match(tripping).....or just the fact that the community literally can't seem to agree on anything to try and "fix" this game, and instead seems to be just argueing over everything.


brawl's competitive community seems to be falling apart...



oh well, just means folks can go back to the better game of melee :3

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Mike, your post still doesn't change the fact that BBR members were posting "outdated information" in the Lucario boards, and my original point still stands.

Yeah... you'd think a High Tier character would have at least a page or two of good posts...

It might not help that the Lucario boards are so furry and stuff they might feel a little detached from the community.

Hell, I've been asking around to help get a video of how to explain how to do a certain Lucario tech up, but it's been nearly a year since we discovered the full implications of it...

It still makes we wonder why didn't the BBR ask the Lucario boards for info if they weren't keen on him.

A lot of problems wouldn't exist if there wasn't so much detachment from the community with certain groups...

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

my solution to fixing brawl community is stop trying to turn brawl into a game it's not meant to be Melee got away with working with **** like no items and that junk. This ain't melee we can lrn to use items and such becuz less hitstun= we can't get ***** by the likes of homerun bat and sensor bombs. the BBR needs to rethink what there doing the new stage list is fine becuz it actually give us Real ways to fight back in those tough MUs due to layout advantages. idk ppl complain so much about why there making the decisions they are when I know for a fact no one complained this much about melee. PPL NEED TO LRN TO DEAL WITH CHANGE.

 

[lordhelmet]

my solution to fixing brawl community is stop trying to turn brawl into a game it's not meant to be Melee got away with working with **** like no items and that junk. This ain't melee we can lrn to use items and such becuz less hitstun= we can't get ***** by the likes of homerun bat and sensor bombs. the BBR needs to rethink what there doing the new stage list is fine becuz it actually give us Real ways to fight back in those tough MUs due to layout advantages. idk ppl complain so much about why there making the decisions they are when I know for a fact no one complained this much about melee. PPL NEED TO LRN TO DEAL WITH CHANGE.

Please tell me you are trolling

 

[Mikachiru]

I think he is, Lord... ^^;

 

[Famous]

Though it only takes a few minutes to learn when the cars come, Port Town is still a garbage stage...Might as well make the Mario Kart Stage legal...

Just another stage for non-mk characters to get gimped at low percentages easily...Hell, I don't see any other character using this stage as a CP besides an MK tbh...

Only other possibility I see is a heavyweight character going for a suicide by grabbing the other character while getting runned over...

Oh well...let's see how this unfolds since It's already been decided

 

[Famous]

On 2nd thought...Mario Kart Stage would be gayer...D3 walk-offs and stage barrier camping....

 

[Vyse]

I hate it how people say the community is falling apart despite our existence on the MLG lineup. We're in a stronger position than ever.

The problem is that since we're so well established in a set competitive landscape, it's hard to influence it one way or another.

 

[Mikachiru]

I hate it how people say the community is falling apart despite our existence on the MLG lineup. We're in a stronger position than ever.

The problem is that since we're so well established in a set competitive landscape, it's hard to influence it one way or another.

Vyse, some people just think it's getting worse. I don't know why, but they do. I dunno what to say about it... ^^;

Influence??

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Any reform you could possibly think of would involve switching out of members. Merely switching out the members would not change anything. The issues would still be there. I really do not see how any idea of reform helps except causing more confusing and incapcitation of any projects in development by the BBR already. Except for establishing a well accepted form of tournament play, anything by the BBR does not really affect much. It is all up to the TO in the end.

 

[Underload]

I totally agree with the points Ran has made in this thread. I've never been a supporter of the BBR at all. Do I have some sort of inherent bias toward them? No. It's simply because over the past couple of years, they've proven to me that, as a collective, they are incompetent to do the work they do. Call me crazy, but I believe the SBR should more closely resemble as republic or a special interests group than a secret society. The majority should be made up of proven tournament organizers, Smash veterans, and truly intelligent posters.

I'm really going to try to be active in this matter.

 

[Browny]

The recent weekly character discussions are a great testament to a current flaw imo, the lack of initiative for many BBR members to become educated about the game they vote on to control.

The first issue is the sheer lack of members actually participating in these discussion. Do the majority of members not even care about anything other than their main? Of the small fraction of members who participate in this discussion, a reasonable proportion of them do nothing but attempt to troll with 1-liners that are not funny and offer no useful insight at all. I musnt take anything away from the members who offered great insight and a desire to learn, They did an upstanding job, unfortunately they are the minority.

The major issue with this case though is as I said before, no apparent want to get educated. I'll use the Lucario discussion as an example as I know it well. It is completely unnaceptable that BBR members do not know that aura has transcendant priority. Have they even spent 1 single solitary minute looking at the character, after which they would surely figure this out. There were countless examples in that thread of people knowing absolutely nothing about Lucario and attempting to sway equally ignorant BBR members minds with pure cr@p. Complaining about aura being overpowered was sickening.

As I suggested, this character discussion (and every other) should have started with an SBR rep coming in and asking the people that know, something simple like 'Tell us 10 things we dont know about this character which will help in our discussions'. But do we see any of that? They went into this discussion (and most others as well) completely ignorant about a wide variety of character traits and his tournament performance/PR rankings over the last year and discuss 2008 theorycraft so bad, SO INCOMPREHENSIVELY BAD, and after the trolls are done, they are finished with a pitiful excuse of a discussion and only ONE member has so far come back to become educated about it. metalmusicianman has done the BBR proud and represented them well there. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the majority of the other posters (remember, who only make up a small fraction of the actual BBR that actually bothered to take part in discussing the game).

 

[Karcist]

Why does the general public have no control over who gets into the backroom?

 

[AllyKnight]

LOL I contributed in putting Hanenbow an Port aero town as CP HWHQHQHQHQAHAHAH

 

[MJG]

Ran, you are now my hero.

 

[fUddO]

You know, I've never understood the need for the BBR to be unvisitable (see but no touch) by the public. Why shouldn't we be able to see firsthand what goes on in there?

 

[DaomarIsBear]

I totally agree with the points Ran has made in this thread. I've never been a supporter of the BBR at all. Do I have some sort of inherent bias toward them? No. It's simply because over the past couple of years, they've proven to me that, as a collective, they are incompetent to do the work they do. Call me crazy, but I believe the SBR should more closely resemble as republic or a special interests group than a secret society. The majority should be made up of proven tournament organizers, Smash veterans, and truly intelligent posters.

I'm really going to try to be active in this matter.

Thiisssssssss

 

[z00ted]

my solution to fixing brawl community is stop trying to turn brawl into a game it's not meant to be Melee got away with working with **** like no items and that junk. This ain't melee we can lrn to use items and such becuz less hitstun= we can't get ***** by the likes of homerun bat and sensor bombs. the BBR needs to rethink what there doing the new stage list is fine becuz it actually give us Real ways to fight back in those tough MUs due to layout advantages. idk ppl complain so much about why there making the decisions they are when I know for a fact no one complained this much about melee. PPL NEED TO LRN TO DEAL WITH CHANGE.

Quick someone invite this guy into the BBR.
_______________________________

No but really the most active TO's of each state should be admitted into the BBR and from there they should invite top (high tier) / "out of the ordinary" (mid tier or lower) placing characters into the BBR. After the invite has been sent the BBR should vote on whether or not the person is allowed in - (so their isn't any favoritism) if the person gets more than 50% they are admitted. In my opinion only 10% of the people who actually talk about the game and show no results should be admitted. There is no reason for someone to be in the BBR if they can't place effectively. If anything the BBR needs to be expanded. There are many people that I can think of right now who should be contributing to the tier list, ruleset, etc, but sadly are not.

 

[Mikachiru]

That's actually a good question. Is it possible to make the section viewable to everyone, but only members can post in it?

 

[lordhelmet]

No but really the most active TO's of each state should be admitted into the BBR and from there they should invite top (high tier) / "out of the ordinary" (mid tier or lower) placing characters into the BBR. After the invite has been sent the BBR should vote on whether or not the person is allowed in - (so their isn't any favoritism) if the person gets more than 50% they are admitted. In my opinion only 10% of the people who actually talk about the game and show no results should be admitted. There is no reason for someone to be in the BBR if they can't place effectively. If anything the BBR needs to be expanded. There are a ton of people that I can think of right now who should be contributing to the tier list, ruleset, etc, but sadly are not.

Best idea I've read in this thread. No sarcasm.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Wouldn't a simple one line rule be easier than completely remaking the BBR?

"if you do not vote you will be removed from the BBR"

This right here.

Everyone should be voting on an imminent change to the way the game is played competitively. Unless your mom died or you got your leg shot, you should be voting.

On the other side of the coin though...I remember when I first joined the boards someone saying "SWF isn't a democracy." With that in mind, can we really expect the B-Broom brass to have major reforms just by reading this thread?

I'd have to say no to that. But it never hurts to try? :S

 

[Browny]

Theres still the problem of people voting who have no idea about certain things. Theres nothing wrong with members not voting on the likes of a character position on a tier list, or whether to ban/allow a certain stage if they have no experience on it. You cant expect all the memebers of the SBR to have tested PTAD enough to vote it banned/legal etc.

 

[Aglow]

So if I'm on the theroycrafting PR's in my state I get in right?

 

[The Truth!]

Rofl, I was going to join the group until I saw this

- Despite community polls to ban MK, he remained legal.

Sounds like a hidden agenda to me. At the very list a silly side attempt at banning MK.

Side note, 16 and 17 people decided on the legality of green greens and japes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This thread reminds me of a half Sarcastic half True statement I put down on Skype.
How to be a BBR Member: Join SWF in 2007 and under have over 2000 posts, have some 200 or so like you know MU's Stage lists down. Host a tournament or three. Instant BBR Member.

 

[Deleted member]

That's actually a good question. Is it possible to make the section viewable to everyone, but only members can post in it?

This really should be the case.

For example, Government officials let us see what they are debating and such via television, the web, and other media outlets. We support those officials and contact them, giving them our thoughts while they relay them to the other government officials.

Why can't we submit our ideas to backroom members, then see the discussion that follows? How do we even know what's going on or if any thing is being done about an issue at all? Oh wait..we don't.

 

[-Ran]

Rofl, I was going to join the group until I saw this

Sounds like a hidden agenda to me. At the very list a silly side attempt at banning MK.

Side note, 16 and 17 people decided on the legality of green greens and japes.

Not really. If I wanted MK to be banned dishonestly, I'd support this stage list. There was an actual majority of votes [not an American majority, but other countries would have considered it to be one] to have MK banned. According to Xyro from when he was in the SBR, there were even enough votes in the SBR that were around this same stance. They then instead just considered to make talking about MK to be a total taboo on the forum. Then again, if your back room is composed of the top players, and judging by the current ranking list, at least 40% of them use MK in some capacity.

What I want, is for the SBR to be better than what it is. If only 20 people voted on a state, how many of them actually voted on Meta Knight? You know, when they voted for the ledge grab limit, only 40 people voted? This was back when they had at least a hundred members. The SBR is poorly constructed and maintained. It is a flawed system that either needs to be dismantled or severely upgraded.

How many other policies and ideas where pushed through or destroyed because of the total apathy that has been demonstrated, and then rigorously defended by a few Backroom members? I always viewed the SBR as the shepherds of the Metagame. Players that were supposed to be active in attempting to make the game go in the right direction. Not anymore.

There's no transparency, because they don't want us to see the average level of posts there. They don't want us to see the inactivity and the misconceptions. Rather than increase the intelligence level there by allowing backroom members to become more versed in the game, and error-corrected, they instead hide in the shadows.

 

[The Truth!]

Calllm down. First of all the issue isnt even how few of them actually vote, its how well theyre representing the community. If 20 people represented the community well no one would mind.

The bigger issue is the disconnection they have with the community. I dont see how anyone can disagree that they did an amazing job on the MK issue. Several threads, several polls, lots of bbr involvement even if not everyone voted. In the end that had an issue that was split down the middle and was going to affect both sides opinion of the game, and they made an informed decision on a split issue. The BBR doesnt need to be built to follow simple majorities.

Contrast that with what happened on the ruleset. Virtually no interaction from the bbr, seemingly no discussion from many of the communities experienced players, no serious discussion threads, polls, etc. In the end as few as 16 people voted on a list that has had an enormous backlash. Unlike MK where you had people on both sides affected, here you basically had the community vs some loosely defined idea of what fair and competitive gameplay, and they chose this idea over us. Granted they might not have known they were doing this at the time, but thats because they had almost zero discussion with us to find out.

Btw I think theyre doing a good job with the character discussions. I know Browneys upset about it, lol, but it seems to be more an issue of lucario users in the bbr not stepping up and explaining their characters. The fact that theyve even had discussions and then released them to the public is already a big step considering bbr members can be corrected on their mistaken information rather then simply believing the mistaken info with no discussion. Lucario discussion seems to be the only one where the mains got salty.

 

[Red Arremer]

but I feel like the rulesets that the BBR should suggest should be worth suggesting, if that makes sense. No, they shouldn't be taken word-for-word, as it's a guideline, but that doesn't mean that the guide can't actually be productive.

But the ruleset IS productive.
It caters to BOTH sides - the liberal TOs now have finally stages allowed that were banned before, AND the minimalistic TOs can go on and ban the stages they have banned all the time anyway.
See? Everyone is - or should be - happy.

This right here.

Everyone should be voting on an imminent change to the way the game is played competitively. Unless your mom died or you got your leg shot, you should be voting.

I abstain of voting for things I don't know enough about, such as the Distant Planet stage (just to name a recent example).

That's actually a good question. Is it possible to make the section viewable to everyone, but only members can post in it?

This suggestion was brought up several times already, it's 2 years old, lol.

That won't happen because it would cause an influx of BBR flamers to troll BBR members via VM/PM/IM/etc. or through making a ton of threads like "M2K: lol at your post in bbr", etc.
It would remove the atmosphere of getting together and talking about the game. It would take out the social factors of the BBR, as well, and add pressure to everyone. Most likely, the BBR would stagnate even more because some members won't dare to post, some probably would leave it.

It's less about doing everything behind closed door but rather because the public would run witch hunts.

If that makes sense to you.

Edit:

According to Xyro from when he was in the SBR, there were even enough votes in the SBR that were around this same stance. They then instead just considered to make talking about MK to be a total taboo on the forum.

Do not listen to what Xyro says about the BBR in regards to MK-stuff.
He was full of conspiracy theories. According to him, people were getting removed because they were for banning Meta Knight, and people being added because they were against banning him (total BS btw); he called people voting against said ban "antiban-scum", things like that.
He is right that the BBR has quite a few MK players in, but most of them aren't even that active.

 

[Black Mantis]

double post sorry

 

[Black Mantis]

Currently, there are over one hundred members in the BR, but if you look at the voting that has taken place, to even state that less than half of them have participated in the voting would be a joke.

lol I didn't know that there was over 100 of them? Sad part is only 20 voted and we get crappy stages that benefit mk more (which the community has begged to be banned for over a year now).

I think a reform is necessary and more of a democratic approach as well. They should ask the players what they fell via polls, because we're the heart of the community.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think a reform is necessary and more of a democratic approach as well. They should ask the players what they fell via polls, because we're the heart of the community.

Then you'll have random people who don't even play Brawl and/or don't go to tournaments decide that "Flat Zone 2 has awesome music, so it should be legal *vote*", or that "Final Destination sucks, it's so boring *vote*".

Just going with an extreme there.

 

[Black Mantis]

Then you'll have random people who don't even play Brawl and/or don't go to tournaments decide that "Flat Zone 2 has awesome music, so it should be legal *vote*", or that "Final Destination sucks, it's so boring *vote*".

Just going with an extreme there.

Now that's a little extreme. The music in Flat Zone 2 sucks.
But I get what your saying.

 

[Mic_128]

You know, I've never understood the need for the BBR to be unvisitable (see but no touch) by the public. Why shouldn't we be able to see firsthand what goes on in there?

Because what will happen is that people will make threads to discus what people in the BBR are discussing and how they're discussing it, removing the point of being read only. And more importantly, people will harass BBR members who vote certain ways on things, PM them to correct/comment on what they've stated, ect.

 

[ぱみゅ]

imo, you do not need to be skilled/win tournaments to become a BRer.
Bad skills could be because of bad reflexes, bad coordination or just bad sight.
If someone REALLY knows what he's talking about, it worth enough to be considered to the BR.

Effectiveness probably could be considered as a "filter" to discard who can join.

 

[Orion*]

The issue is that imo, they let too many individuals that are excellent at posting, but generally not at the game. Bad players are equally as biased as the best, so you need an even ground.

this
and wow i was actually about to write this thread bt you beat me to it. i wouldve flame bpc alot more though LOL

 

[swordgard]

I agree with the OP. The BBR is comprised of, as the OP said, over 100 members, but around 30 of them are active and rarely excel in both theorycraft AND practice. Usually one or the other. I'm all for it. Brawl is dying because of the BBR's inability to make sensible decisions.

Wow.

Just wow, brawl is dying for other reasons. You just want somebody to blame now.


Bring me 30 people that excel both in theorycraft and practice. But most importantly, that have an adequate competitive mindset. I can assure you, they are very rare.


G2g to work, will answer more tonight.

 

[etecoon]

I can assure you, they are very rare.

they are, but there are number of BBR member who don't excel at either. no one can be expected to be great at everything but the back room has randoms and people that were seemingly added just so certain regions wouldn't feel left out. I like ran's idea of an organization comprised of top players and TO's, people shouldn't wield that kind of influence just on theorycraft alone

though I guess it's not that much influence anyway, most regions are going to ignore the new stage list hard, and a lot of rules like the LGL come about spontaneously. the BBR is pretty useless.

 

[AllyKnight]

the BBR is awesome. Don't worry we shall fix it soon.