Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[ffdgh]

lol thx 4 the hard work and keep it up!
and i've been toying around with force palm again

the sweet sop of it can kill a mario near the edge of fd without DI is 98%

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Eh, with Pika I think there is one change that could totally make him scary without the CGs. Make the sweetspot of his fsmash the tip instead of by his cheeks.

Bam. Done. That would be a scary as hell fsmash and he would have a great killer.

that is a very interesting idea, it makes his fsmash a lot more viable as a kill move. in the next version i would like to see this tried

 

[xDD-Master]

Btw there will never be any new characters correct ? ^^ (Since they woudlnt be Brawl)

Just asking out of interest

Btw. gogo Pal version xD (Anyway I will get an NTSC Version because it really is more handy ._.)

 

[JOE!]

no info on the grab release frames?

 

[deepseadiva]

Btw there will never be any new characters correct ? ^^ (Since they woudlnt be Brawl)

Just asking out of interest

I think that's actually the opposite kinda thing they're aiming for.

 

[Thinkaman]

The grab release changes affect all characters equally. In other words, Ness and Lucas are still slower than everyone else, but it's no longer slow enough to exploit. DK's is fast enough to sometimes allow him to jab the grabber after a break.

 

[Galeon]

It'd be nice to get a few more Lucas changes. He didn't just lose matches cause of grab release stuff. Some nice things'd be:

-An aerial kill move (nothing major, maybe stronger uair, fair or bair (sourspot))
-making all of dtilt's hitbox a 50% chance to trip or making it so the tip trips at a noticeably higher rate (75-100).
-maybe an extra 2% on uthrow.
-making dash attack send out instead of up, or makign it stronger

things like that'd be awesome. another thing that'd be nice but not greatly necessary would be a slightly faster roll. The sidestep thing is nice but eh. Pk freeze sucks, buffing it doesn't really change much. The pk fire and jab damage boost is great.

 

[NintenJoe]

It'd be nice to get a few more Lucas changes. He didn't just lose matches cause of grab release stuff. Some nice things'd be:

-An aerial kill move (nothing major, maybe stronger uair, fair or bair (sourspot))
-making all of dtilt's hitbox a 50% chance to trip or making it so the tip trips at a noticeably higher rate (75-100).
-maybe an extra 2% on uthrow.
-making dash attack send out instead of up, or makign it stronger

things like that'd be awesome. another thing that'd be nice but not greatly necessary would be a slightly faster roll. The sidestep thing is nice but eh. Pk freeze sucks, buffing it doesn't really change much. The pk fire and jab damage boost is great.

Lucas is a ton better dude, I wouldn't be complaining. He can keep up with high tier a lot more easily now with his better ground game.

 

[Thinkaman]

It'd be nice to get a few more Lucas changes. He didn't just lose matches cause of grab release stuff. Some nice things'd be:

-An aerial kill move (nothing major, maybe stronger uair, fair or bair (sourspot))
-making all of dtilt's hitbox a 50% chance to trip or making it so the tip trips at a noticeably higher rate (75-100).
-maybe an extra 2% on uthrow.
-making dash attack send out instead of up, or makign it stronger

things like that'd be awesome. another thing that'd be nice but not greatly necessary would be a slightly faster roll. The sidestep thing is nice but eh. Pk freeze sucks, buffing it doesn't really change much. The pk fire and jab damage boost is great.

Thanks for your interest! You are definitely a credible source worth listening to for Lucas, so I hope you can play around with the project and tell us how Lucas's matchups have been changed with hands-on experience.

Sadly, we can't chagne trip ratios or throws.

The Pk Freeze buff wasn't intended to be a big deal, we know that. However, the jab and spotdodge buffs are HUGE and really cement his ground game as a capable force. We're really interested to see how top Lucas players like you can leverage this increased advantage, and what impact it will have on his matchups. From there we'll be able to see where Lucas stands and where he needs to go.

Tell me if you have any other feedback or input, or want any help testing.

 

[Bouse]

You should actually change Link's Dtilt to operate like the one in Melee, where the blade hitbox will spike him 75% of the time instead of 10% of the time. That would kinda make him more of a "If I can't recover nobody can!" type of character with his new arrows and whatnot.

Also, removing the "catching" lag for the boomerang or making it less noticeable would be a valid change.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol are we asking for a spamus kind of deal? LOL only samus can spam this good.

 

[iLink]

Ok finally got around to playing this, here's some feedback:

DeDeDe:

- I like his dthrow, makes it a little more interesting

- I strongly dislike his uthrow now. He doesn't really gain anything from it besides a weak spike which is rather situational as well. He really has no means of putting opponents in the air now which I liked to do to harass them with his priority. I would really like it if he had his old one back.

Luigi:

- Liking his dash attack not failing anymore

- Fireballs are rather overwhelming. They remind me of falco's lasers to a lesser degree. I haven't had people use them on me so I don't really know how well they can be handled.

Ganon:

- Upb is scary o_O

- Is it possible to tech the flame choke? I was able to pull off dtilt > flame choke over and over again if I buffered his dtilt. *EDIT: I take it back, I realize now you can get up from the trip soon enough to avoid the flame choke.

- Better overall


Falco:

- I rather like his new dthrow

- I have mixed feelings about his bthrow. It has some good follow-ups but I liked to be able to send them backwards.


Snake:

- I feel that he was a little over-nerfed. His utilt really isn't useful anymore unless they are at a really high percent. I had to rely on his air attakcs for his earlier ko's.


Link:

- Still feels kind of the same. I've only managed to get one gimp kill with his arrows because they usually recover low against him.


TLink:

- Fsmash doesn't connect very well, rather easy to escape.


Lucario:

- Maybe speed up the actual attacking part of his downb, it's almost useless because you can shield it after it gets activated.


MK:

- I don't feel as bad using him lol

- Can still gimp pretty hard



Also the edited stages like Spear Pillar and Temple are kinda awkward to play on. Spear pillar still feels too random for me and its kinda weird when you are trying to recover upwards. On temple, I was on the left side and got hit towards the right and got ko'd when I wasn't expecting it because there was the whole right area I could have landed in.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Here's an initial PAL version. I'm only including a .txt which you'll have to compile yourself for the simple reason that I have no idea if this works, and anyone testing this needs to be technically adept enough to not freak out if it crashes your Wii (hold the power button for seven seconds to shut it down no matter what FYI).

Default Settings Standard
* 24496898 80000000
* 20525200 00000000
* 04525200 DEADBEEF
* 4A000000 9000E220
* 1417F360 00000102
* 1417F364 03000A00
* 1417F368 08010101
* 1417F36C 01000000
* E0000000 80008000

Stage Specific Speed Reduction
* 4A000000 9000E220
* 1416A904 3F000000
* 3A180F3A 00000004
* 3A180F3A 00000005
* 1416A904 3F2AAAAB
* 3A180F3A 00000024
* 3A180F3A 0000002D
* 3A180F3A 00000031
* 1416A904 3F800000
* E0000000 80008000

Character ID Fix
* C2810318 00000006
* 819E003C 907EFFFC
* 80E30030 2C07000F
* 40A2001C 80FE0008
* 3C008180 7C070000
* 4080000C 39030008
* 9107FFFC 00000000

Frame speed mod engine V3.1
* C2761C20 00000012
* 3C008180 807D0008
* 8063FFFC 7C030000
* 4080000C 80630030
* 48000008 386000FF
* 809D0014 C0240040
* FC40081E 80840058
* 60848000 D8410008
* 8001000C 80BD007C
* 80A50038 38C200D8
* 84E60008 2C070000
* 41820038 7CE8C671
* 41A0000C 7C081800
* 4082FFE8 54E8863E
* 7C004000 41A0FFDC
* 54E8043E 7C082800
* 4182000C 7C082000
* 4082FFC8 C0060004
* D01F0010 00000000
* C2761FB8 00000003
* 2C1D0001 4182000C
* C0230010 48000008
* C02283C0 00000000

Hitbox property mod engine
* C273FA3C 00000019
* 3C008180 80FC0028
* 81070008 8108FFFC
* 7C080000 408000A8
* 81080030 80DE0020
* 5106C00E 801E0000
* 5006821E 801E0018
* 5006442E 80E7007C
* 80E70038 813E0030
* 5127C0CE 801E0014
* 50076226 390204C8
* 85480018 81680004
* 7D405B79 41820060
* 7C0A3000 4082FFEC
* 7C0B3800 4082FFE4
* 88080008 90030004
* 88080009 9003001C
* 8808000A 90030024
* 8808000B 500906FE
* 91230034 A008000C
* 90030018 80080010
* 2C00FFFF 41820008
* 90030038 C0080014
* C03E0010 EC010032
* D0030014 7F83E378
* 60000000 00000000

Frame Speed Modifier Data
* 065AB1C0 00000070
* 071F8073 3F000000
* 0700003B 3FAAAAAB
* 08190112 40000000
* 091E0029 3F000000
* 1300003B 3FAAAAAB
* 141E0029 3F000000
* 0F0C8070 3F000000
* 1A13001E 40000000
* 1F2D0114 3DCCCCCD
* 2000003B 3FAAAAAB
* 2201011C 40000000
* FF000040 3FAAAAAB
* FF000041 3FD55555
* FF0E0054 40A00000

Hitbox Property Mod Data
* 065AB5C0 00001578
* 000F4928 0016902F
* 0F532F00 01690000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 000C4B23 0016902F
* 0C562A00 01690000
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* 0E642000 00530000
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* 6405191E 05169000
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* 020C4844 02169118
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Tripping rate mod
* 04817B68 C0220020
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Infinite replays
* 040ED354 60000000

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CAM data
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The following features are missing at the moment.

-Stage boundary modifications (Corneria, Mushroomy Kingdom, Spear Pillar, Temple)
-Sub-stage select (Spear Pillar, Shadow Moses Island)
-Superior infinite replay code (this uses the version that doesn't show an icon and doesn't work in multiman brawl/homerun contest like Brawl+ does... for reasons I can't understand)
-WiFi Training Mode replacing Hanenbow and having the Famicom Medley Music

As you can see, it's mostly stage stuff that's missing; all the core character changes are there. Hopefully PAL ports for all codes will exist at some point in the future...

Credit to the Brawl+ PAL codeset's authors for their work porting codes. I'm not sure exactly who I should thank in particular though; I would prefer to use individual names...

Do tell me how it works. I really have no idea.

 

[goodoldganon]

Paprika Killer is the major PAL porter for Brawl codes, though Y.S. and Almas, Spunit, and Phantom Wings have done a few. Good work on a PAL codeset.

As a friendly suggestion from one 'hacked' game to another I suggest making your own CSS for BB? (BTW is that the name we have decided upon or do you think it sounds stupid.) Don't steal ours now

Especially since our Pokemon can be indy when selected. Just a thought

 

[ffdgh]

anyone up for a few online brawls?

 

[Thinkaman]

You should actually change Link's Dtilt to operate like the one in Melee, where the blade hitbox will spike him 75% of the time instead of 10% of the time. That would kinda make him more of a "If I can't recover nobody can!" type of character with his new arrows and whatnot.

That would involve changing the hitbox size and the way the move works on stage, and it wouldn't have much of an effect given that ledges are unchanged anyway.

I really like your characterization of the arrows though, it describes them hilariously well.

Funny random story: I was doing some Link dittos with JGALT, and he started using arrows off stage while recovering like Pit does; he'd normally charge one and let go at stage level. I countered this by hitting him with the boomerang wind tip to knock him back to his doom, it was great.

 

[Bouse]

You can't just add a spike effect to the blade hitbox?

 

[adumbrodeus]

DeDeDe:

- I like his dthrow, makes it a little more interesting

- I strongly dislike his uthrow now. He doesn't really gain anything from it besides a weak spike which is rather situational as well. He really has no means of putting opponents in the air now which I liked to do to harass them with his priority. I would really like it if he had his old one back.

As I said before, Dthrow and upthrow are linked, change 1, change the other, at least with this codeset.

Ganon:

- Is it possible to tech the flame choke? I was able to pull off dtilt > flame choke over and over again if I buffered his dtilt.

No. Us Ganon's have been using flame-choke to buffer dtilt (and ftilt, Jab, and instant Dash attack) for ages.

It's a really nice combination IMO.

Link:

- Still feels kind of the same. I've only managed to get one gimp kill with his arrows because they usually recover low against him.

At the right distance you can usually cover low, it's generally best as a direct follow-up.

Remember, you also have bombs, and gale boomerang.

 

[Wavedash Master]

The following features are missing at the moment-

-Superior infinite replay code (this uses the version that doesn't show an icon and doesn't work in multiman brawl/homerun contest like Brawl+ does... for reasons I can't understand)

The reason Brawl+ used the infinite replay code that didn't show the icon was because the infinite replay code that did show the replay icon was a little buggy IIRC.

 

[Deleted member]

ok, I'm fine helping out with the PAL set. after all we are all trying to create a better version of brawl. the timing however isn't the best. I'm currently working on a new way to list my codes, so Wiird has no codes by me right now. you can check out the "PAL code database" and see if you can find anything usefull (it's here somewhere in the workshop)

 

[JOE!]

The grab release changes affect all characters equally. In other words, Ness and Lucas are still slower than everyone else, but it's no longer slow enough to exploit. DK's is fast enough to sometimes allow him to jab the grabber after a break.

and bowser?

 

[TLMSheikant]

In the future, would u guys make TL's fsmash connect like the one in brawl+? Because as it is now, it never connects >_>.

 

[iLink]

No. Us Ganon's have been using flame-choke to buffer dtilt (and ftilt, Jab, and instant Dash attack) for ages.

It's a really nice combination IMO.

No I knew about that but I meant continuing the chain over and over again after the dtilt. I take that back however because I realize you can get back up from the trip fast enough to avoid another flame choke.

Regarding DDD's u/dthrow:

That's a bummer =/

Can the dthrow be tech'd? I found you can tech the uthrow.

 

[TreK]

Keep in mind that only 3 characters were really nerfed, unless you also count Pikachu who we need to look at further.

False D=
You removed Diddy's lock and didn't give him anything. And actually, removing diddy's locks is a game changer... A nerfing one.
Plus wasn't the goal to make other characters reach diddy level ?

OK so I have news
i STILL support the project as much as I can ; but the more I look into it, the more I found small changes I don't agree with.

-The water.
-I'm ok with slowing down stages like mushroomy kingdom or port town, but I am really fond of B+'s wario ware. Could you like set a button for the slowed one and one for the freezed one just like pillars ? And if it is actually possible, an option to get pillars to be frozen too would be GREAT.
-The water.
-Snake's utilt didn't need to be nerfed THAT much. It's kind of ridiculous now. However, you could've reduced nades's damages by a couple % to make them less rewarding while still awesome camping tools. Plus 10wuts @ jab3. It's useless already.
-The water. Hell, I've been calling it "brawl water" and you change it while still calling yourself conservative... I just don't get it.
-You designed Zelda and Sheik to be played together. You can't. No, you can't force people who mained one of the two to learn the other. That's just completely against this project's n°1 and most attractive rule.
-Spear Pillar's lower part being removed is an issue to me. That configuration was actually interesting.
-ICs. Keep their cgs. That could totally make the project fail if you removed them and I don't want that to happen. Brawl's ICs = CGs and Bbrawl = Brawl. Simple as that :o
-Sheik has got a fake buff. Most of her playstyle is "make a ftilt lock happen", thus, just as diddy, you've created a game changer nerf =/
Wasn't there really no way to remove the fox infinite ? =/

Now for the ideas I find are genius :o
-Luigi's fireball.
-The wifi training room. OMFG I so want you to make a PAL version just for this one. Oh, and that'd be awesome if you found a way to put this one in wifi.
-Corneria's blastzones being fixed, luigi's mansion being rewarding, stuff like that -> woot
-The changes on mario and bowser. Making their playstyle more rewarding without removing any of their combo or stuff. That's what I call good job, and what you should've done more often =O
-Ganondorf. Even tho, I'd want to hear ganon mains's opinions on this one, cus they will be the only players that will need to relearn their whole charater :o


BTW, like I promised I told about Bb to french people and... I must say that some were... Not really okay with it at all =O
Well of course some are all "scrub game." or "I don't want a hacked gameplay", and I can't really convince them, but some brought up some good points, and actually convinced me. Just see the sum' above to see what I'm talking about lmao
Those who tried loved it tho
Here's a vid of two of my crewmates that are lucky enough to have a NTSC wii D=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjejbwl6h4&feature=related
Their reaction -> "LEGIT ! But the hacked stages are bad."

/wall of text. I'll keep informed, and keep you informed on how it's doing at the other side of the sea =O

Edit -> woot, pal version =O

 

[Thinkaman]

Ok finally got around to playing this, here's some feedback:

DeDeDe:

- I like his dthrow, makes it a little more interesting

- I strongly dislike his uthrow now. He doesn't really gain anything from it besides a weak spike which is rather situational as well. He really has no means of putting opponents in the air now which I liked to do to harass them with his priority. I would really like it if he had his old one back.

Sadly, it is impossible to change his d-throw without changing his u-throw; they share a hitbox...

Luigi:

- Liking his dash attack not failing anymore

- Fireballs are rather overwhelming. They remind me of falco's lasers to a lesser degree. I haven't had people use them on me so I don't really know how well they can be handled.

Luigi's fireballs can be compared to Dyn's Fire; really good until you get used to them, in which case they quickly become not a big deal. they still help Luigi in the way he needed to be helped, though.

Ganon:

- Upb is scary o_O

- Is it possible to tech the flame choke? I was able to pull off dtilt > flame choke over and over again if I buffered his dtilt.

- Better overall

Flame choke cannot be teched, but every character in the game except Bowser can avoid it after the d-tilt trip by rolling forward. CPUs very rarely do this. (Oh, and Bowser can't be d-tilt'd out of side-b in the first place, so it's all good; the got a TON of testing on my part)

Falco:

- I rather like his new dthrow

- I have mixed feelings about his bthrow. It has some good follow-ups but I liked to be able to send them backwards.

It's something you have to get used to a bit, that's for sure. Overall, factoring in that both throws (and u-throw) do more damage, most testers warmed up to it.

Snake:

- I feel that he was a little over-nerfed. His utilt really isn't useful anymore unless they are at a really high percent. I had to rely on his air attakcs for his earlier ko's.

We know that the u-tilt nerf, small as it is, is a HUGE deal. Once we get feedback on where Snake's matchups are now, we can sit down and decide if Snake needs to be changed any more. Remember, this is only a "preview" designed to get that feedback!

Link:

- Still feels kind of the same. I've only managed to get one gimp kill with his arrows because they usually recover low against him.

Link's KO buffs are non-trivial, and the extra % on boomerang is nice. Arrows have really good utility, but the other changes still matter a lot.

TLink:

- Fsmash doesn't connect very well, rather easy to escape.

What else is new? We're keeping this in mind as we figure out where Toon Link fits into the metagame.

Lucario:

- Maybe speed up the actual attacking part of his downb, it's almost useless because you can shield it after it gets activated.

We'll need lots of matchup data on Lucario before we can really decide what to do with him. He has been impacted more from characters to other characters in general than anyone else, most likely.

MK:

- I don't feel as bad using him lol

- Can still gimp pretty hard

MK is still good, no doubt about it. A lot of testers really liked using him.

Here's an initial PAL version. I'm only including a .txt which you'll have to compile yourself for the simple reason that I have no idea if this works, and anyone testing this needs to be technically adept enough to not freak out if it crashes your Wii (hold the power button for seven seconds to shut it down no matter what FYI).

*snip*

Credit to the Brawl+ PAL codeset's authors for their work porting codes. I'm not sure exactly who I should thank in particular though; I would prefer to use individual names...

Do tell me how it works. I really have no idea.

Thanks a ton for taking care of this Ampharos.

 

[Deleted member]

ampharos, I just tested that set and it freezes.
(I'm mostly the guy that works on the PAL codes, though almas had his fair share in porting too)

maybe delete it, before other people get a freeze too. first impression is important and if that impression is a freeze you might turn poeple away.
I'll see what is wrong with it and give a working version today/tomorrow.

 

[iLink]

We'll need lots of matchup data on Lucario before we can really decide what to do with him. He has been impacted more from characters to other characters in general than anyone else, most likely.

How is that? The only thing he doesn't really do as well is the force palm chain. He still feels about the same to me when fighting everyone else. What did you have in mind that other characters have that impacts him more?

 

[ShadyGT]

thx 4 the pal set, it works 4 me^^

 

[Deleted member]

hm, then I probably screwed up with something. my bad.

nvm my previous post then, though I would appreciate being credited for my work.

 

[Thinkaman]

and bowser?

Bowser is still faster, but doesn't have guaranteed followups. We were aware of this from day one, and know how HUGE this is for Bowser. He got extra attention during development and is why he has received substantial buffs. Dair is serious business.

In the future, would u guys make TL's fsmash connect like the one in brawl+? Because as it is now, it never connects >_>.

I addressed this up top. It's an option on the table, but we need to figure out where Toon Link stands before doing anything.

Can the dthrow be tech'd? I found you can tech the uthrow.

With really good SDI you can tech it, however, this is to DDD's advantage sicne it prevents you from sliding. It would only be worth it once in a blue moon to take him by surprise.

False D=
You removed Diddy's lock and didn't give him anything. And actually, removing diddy's locks is a game changer... A nerfing one.
Plus wasn't the goal to make other characters reach diddy level ?

Diddy's main game is not changed, just the infinite. Make no mistakes.

OK so I have news
i STILL support the project as much as I can ; but the more I look into it, the more I found small changes I don't agree with.

-Snake's utilt didn't need to be nerfed THAT much. It's kind of ridiculous now. However, you could've reduced nades's damages by a couple % to make them less rewarding while still awesome camping tools. Plus 10wuts @ jab3. It's useless already.
-You designed Zelda and Sheik to be played together. You can't. No, you can't force people who mained one of the two to learn the other. That's just completely against this project's n°1 and most attractive rule.
-ICs. Keep their cgs. That could totally make the project fail if you removed them and I don't want that to happen. Brawl's ICs = CGs and Bbrawl = Brawl. Simple as that :o
-Sheik has got a fake buff. Most of her playstyle is "make a ftilt lock happen", thus, just as diddy, you've created a game changer nerf =/
Wasn't there really no way to remove the fox infinite ? =/

I'll let Ampharos address the stage changes to speed tihngs up.

Nerfing nades was considered, but we wanted to do that only as a last resort. They are crucial to Snake's identity. We'll need to see how this u-tilt change affects his matchups.

Zelda and Shiek are already designed to be played together. However, they are both somewhat sub-par characters, so the idea sometimes falls apart.

There was no way Shiek could keep the f-tilt lock and not have 40-50 point spreads in her matchups. Balancing her matchups are simply impossible with it.

Now for the ideas I find are genius :o
-Luigi's fireball.
-The wifi training room. OMFG I so want you to make a PAL version just for this one. Oh, and that'd be awesome if you found a way to put this one in wifi.
-Corneria's blastzones being fixed, luigi's mansion being rewarding, stuff like that -> woot
-The changes on mario and bowser. Making their playstyle more rewarding without removing any of their combo or stuff. That's what I call good job, and what you should've done more often =O
-Ganondorf. Even tho, I'd want to hear ganon mains's opinions on this one, cus they will be the only players that will need to relearn their whole charater :o

BTW, like I promised I told about Bb to french people and... I must say that some were... Not really okay with it at all =O
Well of course some are all "scrub game." or "I don't want a hacked gameplay", and I can't really convince them, but some brought up some good points, and actually convinced me. Just see the sum' above to see what I'm talking about lmao
Those who tried loved it tho
Here's a vid of two of my crewmates that are lucky enough to have a NTSC wii D=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjejbwl6h4&feature=related
Their reaction -> "LEGIT ! But the hacked stages are bad."

/wall of text. I'll keep informed, and keep you informed on how it's doing at the other side of the sea =O

Edit -> woot, pal version =O

Thanks for your input. We look forward to any further experiences you have to share!

And and about Lucario? Lower tiers gaining more knockback on some moves is really bad for him, much worse than other characters, due to aura. We need to investigate his new matchups carefully.

 

[adumbrodeus]

-Ganondorf. Even tho, I'd want to hear ganon mains's opinions on this one, cus they will be the only players that will need to relearn their whole charater

Well, not a main, but an involved Ganon player who's well-regarded in the community, the changes overall were positive. Really, the Game-changer was that we can tech-chase EVERYTHING. I'm gonna miss aerial wiz-kick kills off the top, but overall, our options got a lot stronger and most of the community seems to like the new Ganondorf.

Also, Grounding with the initial hitbox of aerial wizkick is amazing.

 

[Big O]

I like the new changes to Link especially since I always liked using his uncharged arrows. His spin attack being a better kill move is also a nice change. His new killing power in general is pretty nice.

I like the new water mechanics too. The only thing that is annoying about it is that you have to mash up and jump like crazy to get out of it at high damage because the timing is very sensitive.

D3's new Dthrow and Utrhow are both pretty interesting. D3 has a bigger frame advantage on Uthrow but it is easier to tech which gives them extra options (a balanced trade-off in a way). His Dthrow can be teched but it is pretty hard to do it. They can also DI the throws making them bounce closer to or farther away from D3. D3 gets a big frame advntage on tech rolls so he can followup on pretty much anything they do. I like how much more interactivity this gives the other player while still making sure D3 is always in a good advantage to punish. If they DI away from a down throw and roll away they go past like half of FD and you can still probably grab them if you are quick. His stage control is still really good. I don't know if this small glitch happens in normal Brawl but Dthrowing while your back is to the stage makes D3 fall off but you can double jump instantly. Just throwing that out there.

I also think CF's knee needs a little toning down. Maybe you guys could buff something else and nerf the damage by 2% or just nerf the knockback directly. I'm not going to say the new knee makes CF broken but the KO power it has is a little silly.

Is there any way the camera can be fixed on the new Temple and Spear Pillar? Maybe Temple can have a slightly lower blastzone as well.

I think I found a small bug though. For some reason buffering doesn't work normally during CF's Dtilt. Also the way you handled the grab release issue now gives the character who escapes a slight frame advantage. This makes DK's cargo throw worse because if they break out on the ground it is a free grab for them and in the air they have more time to spike/footstool you. It also removes his cargo release aerial up b combo. Other characters also used the grab break for mix-ups like Marth's grab release side b or Lucas' grab release Dtilt. Now both of those can be intercepted by any quick attack and before it would have to be blocked, dodged, or used certain specials to avoid that.

 

[Eyada]

This project looks very promising. I main Fox, and I love what you've done. The Grab/Tilt/D-Smash locks are really the only thing holding him back from being viable in vBrawl. (Not top tier, just viable.) So, excellent work.

Edit- I type far too slowly. Reading your Zelda/Sheik response above. Will edit.
Edit2- My request still stands. They were designed to complement one another, but using both is not mandatory in vBrawl in the vast majority of match-ups. Forcing Sheik mains to learn Zelda for all match-ups goes against your goal of not forcing anyone to have to learn anything new to transition. In vBrawl, the only match-up that I use Zelda for is IC's, and that's only if IC's are counterpicked against my Sheik and I'm forced to transform.

That said, I ask that you reconsider your design goals for Zelda/Sheik. In vBrawl, it is entirely possible to use only one or the other for the vast majority of match-ups; although using both offers the most advantageous match-up spread.

I don't presume to speak for all Zelda/Sheik players, but it seems to be fairly common that, generally speaking, Zelda mains do not want to use Sheik and Sheik mains do not want to use Zelda; people prefer one or the other, if possible. I secondary Sheik, and I love her to death; but the thought of playing Zelda makes me cringe. The characters are simply too different from one another.

I play Sheik for her insane speed, impeccable offense, borderline immunity to being camped, excellent mobility, solid damage racking and good "strings", and her superb boxing abilities. Zelda has none of those things (except perhaps a resistance to being camped.) Zelda cannot do rush down, she fails miserably at boxing, and she generally doesn't "flow" from one attack into another like Sheik does; instead, Zelda is a spacing character that relies on individual powerful hits and a generally more campy and "responsive" play style. Also, Zelda's recovery is absurdly bad, and the thought of being forced to deal with it every game makes me sad; don't get me wrong, Sheik is no Meta Knight, but her recovery is far better than Zelda's (largely due to the Chain).

Perhaps instead of neutering Sheik and forcing Sheik mains to learn Zelda for all of their match-ups, you could instead focus the two characters in different ways to emphasize their uniqueness from one another while allowing both of them to be self-sufficient.

 

[Rykoshet]

-Snake's utilt didn't need to be nerfed THAT much. It's kind of ridiculous now. However, you could've reduced nades's damages by a couple % to make them less rewarding while still awesome camping tools. Plus 10wuts @ jab3. It's useless already.

If you make nades weaker you make snake live much much much longer. If I can cushion a killshot with a nade and know that the nade itself wont send me flying, expect me to turn living to 180 regularly to living to 240 regularly.

That said, I ask that you reconsider your design goals for Zelda/Sheik. In vBrawl, it is entirely possible to use only one or the other for the vast majority of match-ups

Incorrect, it's entirely possible to use sheik for a majority of matchups. Zelda is unviable against a good half if not more of the cast.

 

[Eyada]

Incorrect, it's entirely possible to use sheik for a majority of matchups. Zelda is unviable against a good half if not more of the cast.

Granted, but that still doesn't justify ruining Sheik. If Zelda is too weak on her own, then fix Zelda; Sheik needn't be made non-viable as part of the process. Forcing players into using Zelda/Sheik by destroying Sheik is a bad idea, and I hope it will be reconsidered.

 

[Rykoshet]

Honestly for the little bit I used sheik I understand how losing the ftilt lock is a pretty huge loss, but that's kind of the point of this code set. In the end people are going to need to think of other things sheik may gain in exchange. Like falco gains something out of losing his chain grab. Maybe a more viable killshot, I dunno.

And yes, zelda needs to be much much better.

 

[Frank West]

Not speaking for the whole community here, I just kind of find this useless.

Me personally did not find the fatal flaw in Brawl to be it's unbalance-ness, just the overall physics of it. I frown upon "playing god" with the game and and using hacks to change it unless it's for a good purpose. Brawl +, aimed at making Brawl what it should have been, and in the process made it somewhat more balanced. Why go through all this just to keep the same game just to make your favorite character tourney viable And I especially hate the method of nerfing the good characters and buffing bad characters to achieve this balance.

 

[xDD-Master]

Thx for the pal codeset, stage related things arent important for me.

Me and ShadyGT will do some testings tommorrow and I / we will give you feedback then

First comment: Well Snake is still OK, the jab3 and uptilt feel "ok" but I that uptilt is crazy weak o_O

DDD lives easiely up to 170%+ and thats ********. Anyway I will do tests tommorow because I really like this project and I would be happy to give new ideas for snake, which you realize, then send me the new codeset and I will test them and give feedback

I really love Snake and I want him to be a good but fair character ^^

Are you doing all the codes with the gecko modul by yourself or with any "pre-codeset" with values which you fill in so I could do changes on my own ???

Not speaking for the whole community here, I just kind of find this useless.

Me personally did not find the fatal flaw in Brawl to be it's unbalance-ness, just the overall physics of it. I frown upon "playing god" with the game and and using hacks to change it unless it's for a good purpose. Brawl +, aimed at making Brawl what it should have been, and in the process made it somewhat more balanced. Why go through all this just to keep the same game just to make your favorite character tourney viable And I especially hate the method of nerfing the good characters and buffing bad characters to achieve this balance.

I also could imagine taking MK as avarage and giving all characters that many buffs until they are near as good as MK. This could be pretty acurate, but then Characters would still keep their CGs and stuff and that's what destroys some other character.

Have much do you want to buff DK if he still gets Infinited by DDD ? Taking of DDDs infinit is much easier and he has now funny tech-chase game with two throws.


Edit: I really like the new DDD, the throws feel very good somehow

 

[Rykoshet]

Not speaking for the whole community here, I just kind of find this useless.

Me personally did not find the fatal flaw in Brawl to be it's unbalance-ness, just the overall physics of it. I frown upon "playing god" with the game and and using hacks to change it unless it's for a good purpose. Brawl +, aimed at making Brawl what it should have been, and in the process made it somewhat more balanced. Why go through all this just to keep the same game just to make your favorite character tourney viable And I especially hate the method of nerfing the good characters and buffing bad characters to achieve this balance.

Then play plus. Your view on what makes the game not fun to play is obviously not completely shared, and there is a project for people like you who think the game's engine itself is the problem. For those of us who think the engine is fine, it's just the absurdity of the oversights that exist on overly good/bad characters, we'll play this. For others, theyll play both. It's not that hard to figure out, but it's far from useless.

 

[xDD-Master]

I play all three XD

btw Ganondorf :D

Soo cool ^^