Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sorry I took so long to post about Lucas. Here's where you're going to see a point Thinkaman and I differing on; I think Lucas is better than "mid-tier".

Lucas is a very "bread and butter" type character. By this I mean that Lucas played well isn't flashy... at all. He relies on simple things, but those simple things work very well for him. Lucas's jab is fast, safe, has good hitboxes, and does 12% with the full combo. That is amazing. I jab to a fairly obscene degree with Lucas; there isn't a circumstance in which jab is not among the options I consider. I honestly probably jab as much if not more with Lucas as with Ike; it's that good. Lucas has a great ftilt too. It's not anything easily advertisable about it so much as ftilt is just a really good poke. If my opponent starts outspacing my jab on the ground and such, I can just ftilt, and it's pretty effective. Then they can try to avoid that and I can jab more.

Lucas has a ridiculously amazing pivot grab. In general, Lucas's grabs are really quite good; he's actually one of the main characters I think of when I think "wow, tether grabs are really underrated". His grab has great range, and while it's hardly a speed demon among grabs, it is honestly not that slow. He can enjoy the extra range when shieldgrabbing, when he needs to dashgrab it's honestly just barely slower than for some other characters with normal grabs except with a ton more range, and otherwise he can just abuse his ridiculous pivot grab. I mean, I don't even know how to describe that pivot grab other than to point to Yoshi and say "Lucas can do the same thing". In any matchup in which playing really defensively and grabbing a lot seems like a good idea, Lucas has one of the best pivot grabs in the game to do that and do it very efficiently.

Lucas's recovery is really good. I can't do it because I'm not very technical, but proper use of zap jumping and magnet pulling lets Lucas get back from almost anything. His aerial tether is honestly a pretty good tool that lets him do a lot of precision recovery work near ledges. Pk Thunder is hardly even necessary for recovery, but if he does need to use it, it gets a ton of distance and gives him that same amazing helpless state Ness does (same air control as he has when not in helpless... which is for Lucas about average air control I think).

Lucas's fsmash is just an amazing kill move. It's really disjointed, pretty long range, and has good power. The speed is really not bad for that; it's very practical to land this move a lot. Lucas does have the issue that this is really his only general purpose kill move, but for a character with only one, at least it's a good one.

Lucas has the best overall spotdodge game out of the cast. His spotdodge is one of those amazing 22 frame 2-20 invincible spotdodges in Bbrawl (see also: Link); spotdodge to jab is "boring" but really easy to do as a general purpose answer to wide varieties of things and is a match winner. If the opponent tries to use spotdodges against Lucas, his down smash was basically built just to counter that. Down smash is not a move I use much, but it does eat spotdodges very efficiently so I don't find many opponents willing to make more than sparse use of spotdodging against Lucas in general. Note how things are all related; opponents scared to spotdodge are easier than normal to pivot grab, right?

Lucas has fairly ridiculous air to ground with his dair. It controls the space below Lucas for a long time and hits in very favorable ways with the potential to do a lot of damage. I'm pretty sure it has gimping potential off-stage too, but my weak technical Lucas hasn't been able to explore that. Seriously, dair is just ridiculous on Lucas; I worry it may be an overbuffed thing no one noticed because no one likes Lucas. Lucas can also mix up with his solid nair in circumstances he likes to go for dair so it's not like he completely telegraphs himself when going for it even.

PSI Magnet is amazing protection against certain types of camping. If you have a 1% lead against Falco on the Bridge of Eldin with 7:30 left, he has to approach you. That's a big deal.

Lucas has more stuff in his game too, but I feel like just those fundamentals put him in such a good position. He can rack damage very efficiently, maneuver well, and has no particular issues recovering (actually a blatantly above average recovery). Against really disjointed characters, he can just use Pk Fire to throw off their spacing (the best is to use Pk Fire to force them to do a deep approach and then jab right before they would hit you). If that's not working, pivot grabs are pretty good against Mr. Game & Watch I know. The way his fsmash is so disjointed means he can reach into enemy range get that kill when he's looking for it. I really just doubt that those matchups actually go worse than 60-40 for Lucas; Lucas doesn't have poor range or poor mobility, and he has a few tools that are specifically very obnoxious for characters who rely on their range (I really can't stress enough how Yoshi vs G&W in standard Brawl would be something like 80-20 G&W favor [pick whatever number you like that means "free win"] if not for pivot grabs that make it only barely in G&W's favor and how Lucas has access to an only slightly worse version of that).

We're looking into those sort of bug fixes. On that note, does anyone know if we're close at all to the ability to alter hitbox data on projectiles and Nana attacks via file replacement? If we could, we could strip out the hitbox code entirely which would be a big start in just making bugs disappear.

As per Port Town Aero Dive, that's very interesting, but I wonder with the ability to mess with the cars like that, how far are we really from just straight up editing of the hitbox they make?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Sorry I took so long to post about Lucas. Here's where you're going to see a point Thinkaman and I differing on; I think Lucas is better than "mid-tier".

Just use Marth

Lucas is a very "bread and butter" type character. By this I mean that Lucas played well isn't flashy... at all. He relies on simple things, but those simple things work very well for him. Lucas's jab is fast, safe, has good hitboxes, and does 12% with the full combo. That is amazing. I jab to a fairly obscene degree with Lucas; there isn't a circumstance in which jab is not among the options I consider. I honestly probably jab as much if not more with Lucas as with Ike; it's that good. Lucas has a great ftilt too. It's not anything easily advertisable about it so much as ftilt is just a really good poke. If my opponent starts outspacing my jab on the ground and such, I can just ftilt, and it's pretty effective. Then they can try to avoid that and I can jab more.

Yeah, but it has no range.

Lucas has a ridiculously amazing pivot grab. In general, Lucas's grabs are really quite good; he's actually one of the main characters I think of when I think "wow, tether grabs are really underrated". His grab has great range, and while it's hardly a speed demon among grabs, it is honestly not that slow. He can enjoy the extra range when shieldgrabbing, when he needs to dashgrab it's honestly just barely slower than for some other characters with normal grabs except with a ton more range, and otherwise he can just abuse his ridiculous pivot grab. I mean, I don't even know how to describe that pivot grab other than to point to Yoshi and say "Lucas can do the same thing". In any matchup in which playing really defensively and grabbing a lot seems like a good idea, Lucas has one of the best pivot grabs in the game to do that and do it very efficiently.

He has about the range of Marth's pivot grab with 10x less safety. However, he does have a good throw now (U-throw for 11%)

Lucas's recovery is really good. I can't do it because I'm not very technical, but proper use of zap jumping and magnet pulling lets Lucas get back from almost anything. His aerial tether is honestly a pretty good tool that lets him do a lot of precision recovery work near ledges. Pk Thunder is hardly even necessary for recovery, but if he does need to use it, it gets a ton of distance and gives him that same amazing helpless state Ness does (same air control as he has when not in helpless... which is for Lucas about average air control I think).

Yeah, if you don't die you miss the 2 frames because you just wasted your double jump and was put into lag on PKF. WB is awesome though. I honestly have no idea what the purpose of the buff on b-air was though. It helps in none of his bad MU's. It's a sweetspot move so if you miss it meteorsmash or anything. Many Lucas' b-stick so their aerial control is limited when using b-air, so it's much easier for an opponet (such as Snake) to DI just a little away when he is in his cypher. Also when you put 12 for sourspot, that is actually just grounded sweet-spot. I'd much rather see a kill buff for u-air because it helps with Marth and Snake and it doesn't polarize against characters such as Link or Ganon who have telegraphed recoveries

Lucas's fsmash is just an amazing kill move. It's really disjointed, pretty long range, and has good power. The speed is really not bad for that; it's very practical to land this move a lot. Lucas does have the issue that this is really his only general purpose kill move, but for a character with only one, at least it's a good one.

Therefore it telegraphs it's self. Good luck landing this against a good Marth who's keeping you in tipper range. It's actually among average range for F-smashes. If you look at people about his range on the tier list, they all got kill buffs. Lucas has one viable kill move. Really?

Lucas has the best overall spotdodge game out of the cast. His spotdodge is one of those amazing 22 frame 2-20 invincible spotdodges in Bbrawl (see also: Link); spotdodge to jab is "boring" but really easy to do as a general purpose answer to wide varieties of things and is a match winner. If the opponent tries to use spotdodges against Lucas, his down smash was basically built just to counter that. Down smash is not a move I use much, but it does eat spotdodges very efficiently so I don't find many opponents willing to make more than sparse use of spotdodging against Lucas in general. Note how things are all related; opponents scared to spotdodge are easier than normal to pivot grab, right?

Lucas' D-smash may eat through spot-dodges but it get's progresively weaker and makes it less viable at killing. It still makes spot-dodging Lucas Grab and F-smash viable for living at higher percents.

Lucas has fairly ridiculous air to ground with his dair. It controls the space below Lucas for a long time and hits in very favorable ways with the potential to do a lot of damage. I'm pretty sure it has gimping potential off-stage too, but my weak technical Lucas hasn't been able to explore that. Seriously, dair is just ridiculous on Lucas; I worry it may be an overbuffed thing no one noticed because no one likes Lucas. Lucas can also mix up with his solid nair in circumstances he likes to go for dair so it's not like he completely telegraphs himself when going for it even.

Yeah, people used to be afraid of it when it used to actually lead to a kill move. But it doesn't anymore. In fact getting rid of the jab locks hurts Lucas. So technically Lucas had two viable kill move before and now he has one. In fact the people in the Lucas boards HAVE played BBrawl and don't like it because it's even harder to get a kill with Lucas.

PSI Magnet is amazing protection against certain types of camping. If you have a 1% lead against Falco on the Bridge of Eldin with 7:30 left, he has to approach you. That's a big deal.

Yeah, but it's only safe if he actually shoots something into your magnet. Otherwise you have to deal with a lot of start up lag and ending lag making it unviable at preventing stuff at mid-range. All Falco has to do is stand at an uncomfortable range for Lucas to magnet then Lucas has to approach.

Lucas has more stuff in his game too, but I feel like just those fundamentals put him in such a good position. He can rack damage very efficiently, maneuver well, and has no particular issues recovering (actually a blatantly above average recovery). Against really disjointed characters, he can just use Pk Fire to throw off their spacing (the best is to use Pk Fire to force them to do a deep approach and then jab right before they would hit you). If that's not working, pivot grabs are pretty good against Mr. Game & Watch I know. The way his fsmash is so disjointed means he can reach into enemy range get that kill when he's looking for it. I really just doubt that those matchups actually go worse than 60-40 for Lucas; Lucas doesn't have poor range or poor mobility, and he has a few tools that are specifically very obnoxious for characters who rely on their range (I really can't stress enough how Yoshi vs G&W in standard Brawl would be something like 80-20 G&W favor [pick whatever number you like that means "free win"] if not for pivot grabs that make it only barely in G&W's favor and how Lucas has access to an only slightly worse version of that).

You're really overestimating the range of F-smash. Jab won't work against any of his bad MU's in vBrawl because it's range is lolzy. No, his F-smash is shorter than Marth's sword. If you try that agaisnt a Marth you will get tippered. Good luck getting a grab against Marth when all he does is stay in the air because there's nothing Lucas can do about it. Lucas WB PKF is punish because it has start-up lag that makes it easy to PS and it doesn't even force the opponet into a bad postion like G&W bacon. Also G&W bucket > PKF therefore forcing an approach. If your playing against Lucas, just don't approach or PS his PKF.

We're looking into those sort of bug fixes. On that note, does anyone know if we're close at all to the ability to alter hitbox data on projectiles and Nana attacks via file replacement? If we could, we could strip out the hitbox code entirely which would be a big start in just making bugs disappear.

You're probably going to want to ask innocentroad about this because I'm pretty sure he was able to edit Sheik's needles via PSA / Hexing.

 

[Eldiran]

We're looking into those sort of bug fixes. On that note, does anyone know if we're close at all to the ability to alter hitbox data on projectiles and Nana attacks via file replacement? If we could, we could strip out the hitbox code entirely which would be a big start in just making bugs disappear.

As per Port Town Aero Dive, that's very interesting, but I wonder with the ability to mess with the cars like that, how far are we really from just straight up editing of the hitbox they make?

It's entirely possible that such a change could happen... but I wouldn't say it's too much more likely than it ever was. Unfortunately what I did isn't all that impressive; I just changed the animation of the cars so they never move. So, it's not really connected to actually fiddling with the hitboxes.

Regarding altering hitbox data on projectiles... as PSIence said, InnocentRoads discovered a way to do it. I learned how to from a video he posted, if you guys need any of it done. Here's the video link if you want it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=803fnHGcUNQ&feature=sub

 

[AmigoOne]

Unless you fix Link's recovery, he'll never be balanced. That's his #1 thing. Have nothing changed except his recovery, and he would shoot up a couple ranks in the tier list. I can't stress it enough. He's the only character that can't make it back to the stage when everyone else can.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We've talked about Link quite alot now and have had Legan help Thinkaman design BBrwl Link. I think Thinkaman knows what Link needs.

Edit: after re-reading my post it comes across as mean. Sorry
Basically, Link has a lot of on-stage power that would be broken if he didn't have a poor recovery right now.

 

[AmigoOne]

Its alright, no offense taken at all.
lol, bbrawl feels like a lot of characters got a lot of onstage power now.

 

[Steeler]

Naw, I'd give that one to Sheik from my experience playing both TonyGuacamole's Fox and Sheik.

Sheik has more tools for safer zoning than Fox.

squirtle is up there as well

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link is decent, and has the tools to safely zone and fairly safely and reliably score a KO reasonably early.

RocketPSIence, honestly, I don't know why you're asking for my input, since everything you said is definitely correct.

But if you want me to reword it, here is why I think Lucas is not that good:

His F-smash is blockable on reaction, and doesn't actually have that much range when you compare it to the options other characters have. That unfortunately is legitimately his best KO move, and it's pretty punishable, having similar ending lag to Ganon's F-smash. His D-smash is his next best KO move, and also easily avoidable on reaction. It is alright on shields and spotdodge, but HORRIBLE on whiff. Up-smash is not viable, throws are iffy because his grab sucks against respectable pressure games, and aerials don't kill until 170%.

Now Lucas DOES have the ability to poke somewhat, but he's outclassed at it by most characters in most situations since his range is really low in general. You would expect a character with low range like him would have a really good pressure game to compensate for this, but he doesn't. That also sucks for him.

Also, PK Fire sucks. It's super telegraphed and easily punished as long as you powershield it. I do this a lot actually, as I've played Ganon vs Lucas a fair bit. Very easy to do.

Lucas is definitely better than Ness, as he can fundamentally do stuff to poke (thanks to better mobility and other small moveset discrepancies), and his N-air is good on shields, and his recovery is good. His spotdodge buff makes him a little extra annoying to deal with and gives him more opportunities to poke, which I believe has indeed done enough to officially make Lucas superior to Ness. However, other characters can poke just as well if not better, and have more reliable or safer ways to get kills. And they have more range usually. That's why Lucas isn't very good.

Probably, the best thing that can be done to buff Lucas right now is to buff his F-air and U-air, so that he actually has viable aerial KO options.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Neither Lucas nor Ness need a buff. They are both solid. If anything Lucas is better and I can maybe see an arguement being made for a Ness buff, but I personally don't see it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas is definitely not on the level of Diddy Kong, which is the original goal this project aimed for.

Like several characters who are considered underwhelming, he really, really is not able to KO effectively, safely, or reliably all that well.

He has some poking options, which is a decent base to start from, but he still is very limited in KO options. Also hurting him is his low range and rather limited defensive options.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Honestly, it's hard to KO opponets under 170 because it's extremely easy to avoid Lucas KO moves. Above 90 and under 150 you expect an f-smash and that's it. When you compare it to other characters in BBrawl around his tier in vBrawl, like Mario, they have many options to pressure opponets into their smashes and can keep the opponet guessing about what kill move is thrown out next making KO'ing at 110 more viable, where as Lucas only has F-smash and none of his other viable moves kill until 160-170.

Lucas has decent pokes. But N-air on someone's sheild is punishable if have a nearly full shield and usually gets Lucas into alot of trouble in his bad MU's making it a bad approach. It does however eat side-steps but will only reward around 4% making it still more beneficial to side-step Lucas had Mid to Higher percents.

Edit: BTW, Galeon who helped you with Lucas still hasn't tried BBrawl yet...

 

[Thinkaman]

Passing thought: Link is really solid. He's solid up close and solid from a distance, and his tether makes attacking his shield nonsense. (The only character I personally like having a tether...) His recovery is a very obvious weakness, but like Olimar the rest of his game makes up for it. Just be awesome like Legan and you will destroy.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I do think Lucas is at Diddy's level :/
I also think Link's a beast, in response to Thinkaman's post. Really solid character.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What makes Lucas Diddy level?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Short answer: His hair.
Slightly longer answer: His buffs are meaningful enough to bump him up a solid amount, as well as a few of his bad matchups being nerfed.
Really long answer: Reserved for AA LOL.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I find the short answer to be the best.

I'm going to go through his buff list and see what major changes were made for the 9th worst character in vBrawl (probably going lower).


Jab 3 damage (4%) -> (6%) Good 2% Buff
Up tilt damage (8%) -> (9%), knockback (105/40) -> (95/37)Decent 1% Buff. The move is usually only used to follow up n-air which should be DI'd out of to avoid the u-tilt
Down tilt knockback (22/6) -> (0/34), angle (0) -> (315)I guess this is sort of like saying, sorry we got rid of d-tilt lock
Back aerial early hit damage (9%) -> (11%)Really?
Back aerial sweetspot damage (12%) -> (18%), knockback (90/30) -> (75/60)Honestly? This doesn't help Lucas' MU's
Back aerial sourspot damage (10%) -> (12%)This is actually grounded sweetspot :3
Back aerial late hit damage (7%) -> (9%)Thinkaman really needs to learn what part of b-air is which. The hitboxes all come out at once.
Down aerial lower main hits damage (5%) -> (4%), knockback (10/50) -> (0/60)Makes it do less damage if you whiff the last hit
Down aerial upper main hits damage (5%) -> (4%), knockback (100/0) -> (0/35)Semiuseful
Down aerial final sweetspot damage (5%) -> (8%), knockback (110/10) -> (45/40) Emphasizes the move to telegraph it's self by making you want to hit with only the later hit
Down aerial final sourspot angle (-) -> (270)This would be nice if we still had d-tilt lock
Up throw damage (10%) -> (11%), knockback (65/80) -> (62/80)Semi-useful, assuming you can get the grab and not horribly punished on whiff
Pk Freeze knockback (40/50) -> (15/70), angle (70) -> (0)This move should never be landed, see Din's Fire, but worse
Pk Fire hit damage (3%) -> (4%)Assuming they don't powershield and have less lag than Lucas to punish.
Pk Fire sweetspot (6%) -> (8%)
Pk Fire sourspot (4%) -> (6%)
Spotdodge speed doubled on frame 19 (New total duration: 22 frames)Makes jab come out 3 frames OoD

Now with the removal of d-tilt lock, what is so major about these changes to bring him up from 9th lowest tier?

 

[Fuujin]

Honestly, it's hard to KO opponets under 170 because it's extremely easy to avoid Lucas KO moves. Above 90 and under 150 you expect an f-smash and that's it. When you compare it to other characters in BBrawl around his tier in vBrawl, like Mario, they have many options to pressure opponets into their smashes and can keep the opponet guessing about what kill move is thrown out next making KO'ing at 110 more viable, where as Lucas only has F-smash and none of his other viable moves kill until 160-170.

Lucas has decent pokes. But N-air on someone's sheild is punishable if have a nearly full shield and usually gets Lucas into alot of trouble in his bad MU's making it a bad approach. It does however eat side-steps but will only reward around 4% making it still more beneficial to side-step Lucas had Mid to Higher percents.

Edit: BTW, Galeon who helped you with Lucas still hasn't tried BBrawl yet...

If you can't kill till 160 with Lucas I think you're doing something wrong.
I can kill characters with Sheik (other than Snake) before then.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Short answer: His hair.
Slightly longer answer: His buffs are meaningful enough to bump him up a solid amount, as well as a few of his bad matchups being nerfed.
Really long answer: Reserved for AA LOL.

Meaningful? He's arguably nerfed according to many Lucas mains. Losing a reliable KO setup is pretty bad (well, you have to confirm a missed tech, but still, it's reliable if you do that).

He does have some nice damage racking buffs, but he's REALLY lacking in KO options.

How does Lucas compare to a character who can always stay safe and consistently poke AND combo AND set up kills with infinite priority (aka Diddy Kong), not to mention he has multiple options that are safe on block and a command grab for epic mixups? Furthermore, I'm quite certain Diddy Kong has a much more reliable aerial finisher.

Granted, Diddy was nerfed by the removal of a few certain **** trip combos, but fundamentally, he's still quite good.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Any Lucas mains suggesting he's overall been nerfed really have no weight in this discussion.
To be honest, the whole point of my post was to say he has cool hair and to let AA actually discuss Lucas lol. I could of left out that other explanation.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

If you can't kill till 160 with Lucas I think you're doing something wrong.
I can kill characters with Sheik (other than Snake) before then.

Lucas can't kill if you avoid his stick. (Other than his gimps, which aren't really that reliable b/c PKT is canceled by nearly all aerials and PKFreeze has the edgegaurding potential of Din's Fire.)

BTW: I consider Lucas to be slightly buffed in a sense, but also slight nerfed by the fact that he loses KO set-ups. Lucas also has the second most reliable jab lock set-up in vBrawl. It's a major part of his game in vBrawl to punish people in 10 frames if they mess up spacing or get caught by it. He loses something that's really good for Lucas, this is a major reason why BBrawl has so few Lucas mains supporting it. Nearly no Lucas main wants to play BBrawl because he just plain wasn't given enough to work with.

 

[HailCrest]

Any Lucas mains suggesting he's overall been nerfed really have no weight in this discussion.
To be honest, the whole point of my post was to say he has cool hair and to let AA actually discuss Lucas lol. I could of left out that other explanation.

Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you has no weight in this discussion?

Look at it this way. At 100%, in vBrawl the only moves that Lucas has that gives enough knockback to kill are all his smashes and the jablock. Only on 150%+ does Fair and Dthrow become options.

At 100%, his fastest option is definitely the jablock. Dair comes out on the 4th frame iirc. Fsmash loses by a very large margin, coming out in 14 frames and yet fsmash is his second fastest kill. In the metagame where people like Marth and MK all have quick killers that come out in less than 10 frames, removing Lucas' jablock will hurt him. Hurt him really bad. To the point where all other buffs are outweighed.

Furthermore, Dair is so much more safe on block compared to fsmash. With fsmash, Lucas is a sitting duck all the way from frames 14 to 59 because, well, it's a smash attack. Dair is an aerial and since it's used at the start of a full hop, Lucas is automatically getting the hell outta there in case the opponent shields it. Removing jablock means that Lucas has no other options which won't put him in an eternity of lag should he miss.

As RPSI said, Lucas can't kill with his stick if you shield it and with a quarter of a second to react, plenty of skilled people will. Therefore, removing jablock = removing his only safe option until 160% = no killing power.

If you're dead-set on removing jablock, at least give Lucas other options. I don't want him to become another Ness so leave his aerials untouched for the moment, and give ftilt killing potential, or utilt. Ftilt is a gtfo move whose knockback is too much to combo with but isn't enough to kill.

Therefore, it can said that he's buffed because he's even better at damage racking with PK Fire dealing 11% instead of the old 8%. PK Freeze is a sort-of edgeguard because of its new launch angle, but rarely ever connects and its knockback power is lackluster. Dair is slightly better at edgeguarding because fourth hit always spikes. But removal of jablock hurts too much.

I would suggest giving his tilts killing power. Probably kill around 120%. They're quick enough to be a good option out of shield. If you compare Lucas' tilts to say, marth's smashes, I would say that Lucas's tilts would have less power and less range in exchange for less cool down and very slightly less startup. Turning utilt into a kill move would give Lucas his only option to kill upwards (removal of jablock means usmash is now extremely situational, and uair has no killing power). Quite obviously this wouldn't apply to Dtilt. If you're really dead set on removing jablock, at least do this, because it would be far from balanced if everyone else could kill below 150% and he can't.

 

[da K.I.D.]

As bad as PK fire is, why not make that his kill move? its supposed to have more knockback in contrast to ness fire which holds the opponent in place.

based on what im hearing in this thread, increasing damage affects KB and Shield stun. if instead of 3/4 it did like 10/12 and maybe increase the KB slightly, you have a move that takes long to start up but KOs and KOs from a distance which is some thing that very few characters have. and a ranged ko move is a massive boon for a character.

i dont kow lucas, but at the base i think pk fire as a KO move would do way more for him than just having fire as a crappy punishable camping move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Looks like we have a ZSS semi-clone coming up.

 

[HailCrest]

I wouldn't think so. Let's leave the ranged KOing to zamus, because by the time the opponent is in KO percents PK fire would be stale because of camping. It is NOT easily punishable, and is hard to do so if you wavebounce and space correctly.

Also, you're quite mistaken about PK Fire. PK fire has two hits: When the bolt hits the opponent, it does 4% and triggers the second hit which is the diagonal explosion which deals 8%. It already does 12% damage, and it did 8% in vbrawl lol.

Although this new addition means that PK Fire can knock snake out of cypher, which is pretty significant.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Actually what I was saying was that anyone who seriously believes he's a worse character is really dumb. That's all I meant with my prior post, just to clarify.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

His bad MU's usually have a tendency to be weak below him in BBrawl. Marth's D-air is slow and has alot of landing lag, making it a R-P-S at higher percents if his u-tilt can kill around 120 or 130 or light weights. I also think an u-air killer at 130 on mid weights would be good, because most light weights can outrange it, so it wouldn't polarize it against lightweights.

I don't really care much about an f-air killer though, but I'm sure that Lucas could use it. But an f-air can combo into a jab in vBrawl and BBrawl right now if you land it.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

May I get a summary of data for Balanced Falco? I know the CG was removed and replaced w/ b-throw creating follow up options, but what else have you done for my Birdy?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That's all for Falco, but b-throw can lead to b-air and d-throw can still combo into stuff.

Edit: Who play tested Lucas?

 

[Eyada]

Falco also benefits from the changes to other characters. Pikachu's chaingrab on him is gone, MK and Snake are less extreme as far as killing power goes, and IC's lost the infinite.

When evaluating the overall benefit to your character, you can't just look at direct changes to the character. Many characters benefit, some quite heavily, from changes to other characters and the changes to stages/removal of random tripping. (e.g., Fox went from non-viable to viable and he didn't receive any significant direct changes at all.) You'll be better served by looking at all the changes together, holistically, rather than as isolated pieces.

 

[The_Altrox]

Some questions:

- Is there a topic for Online BBrawl to find people to battle? I'd ask on GFAQs, but talking about homebrew is moddable there.

- You can't add custom costumes without homebrew? I didn't know whether or not it's possible to replace certain codes without it. (if it is, I'm going to need more instructions on how to mod things.)

- When approximately is the next version of BBrawl going to be availabe? I'm in no rush. I just wanna know what month(s) to come back and check if I start posting less in this topic.

 

[HailCrest]

Some questions:

- Is there a topic for Online BBrawl to find people to battle? I'd ask on GFAQs, but talking about homebrew is moddable there.

- You can't add custom costumes without homebrew? I didn't know whether or not it's possible to replace certain codes without it. (if it is, I'm going to need more instructions on how to mod things.)

- When approximately is the next version of BBrawl going to be availabe? I'm in no rush. I just wanna know what month(s) to come back and check if I start posting less in this topic.

1. I wouldn't think so because bbrawl isn't as popular as Brawl+, and also because playing with mods online screws things up

2. You can. Just replace the .gct that you have right now with the one they provided to support textures, check OP.

3. At August this year they said they're going to not do anything for 4-6 months to let the netagames mature. So I'm willing to bet that next year, around February is your best bet.

Edit:

His bad MU's usually have a tendency to be weak below him in BBrawl. Marth's D-air is slow and has alot of landing lag, making it a R-P-S at higher percents if his u-tilt can kill around 120 or 130 or light weights. I also think an u-air killer at 130 on mid weights would be good, because most light weights can outrange it, so it wouldn't polarize it against lightweights.

I don't really care much about an f-air killer though, but I'm sure that Lucas could use it. But an f-air can combo into a jab in vBrawl and BBrawl right now if you land it.

I'd rather Uair remains unchanged. Its trajectory can be quite unpredictable and besides, doing that would essentially make Lucas into a Ness clone, so just leave it as a juggling option. Same goes for Fair, but it corresponds to Ness Bair this time, and it already has satisfactory edgeguarding potential, and like you said possibly jab lock inducing.

Leave the aerial killing to Ness and focus on making Lucas' quick but weak ground game better.

What's an RPS?

 

[The_Altrox]

2. You can. Just replace the .gct that you have right now with the one they provided to support textures, check OP.

where are these files located? and do I need Gecko to replace them , or it simply placing ceratin files in certain places? (Sorry, I sound like a noob. I really know nothing about codes or anything in that nature)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What's an RPS?

Rock-Paper-Scissors guessing game. Basically if we can predict right we get a free hit, if they predict right, they get a free hit.

I still think U-air should have some kill potential though, seeing as it's what Lucas players consider to be their aerial kill move (even though it kills way to late...). It would also help against Marth and Snake alot for Lucas too.

 

[HailCrest]

where are these files located? and do I need Gecko to replace them , or it simply placing ceratin files in certain places? (Sorry, I sound like a noob. I really know nothing about codes or anything in that nature)

Um, the link is on the third line of OP. Download it, take the RSBE01.gct there, go to your SD card, assume your SD's root is F: (mine is).

Go to F:/codes, rename the RSBE01 there to something else, then copy over the new RSBE01 you got that allows textures.

Rock-Paper-Scissors guessing game. Basically if we can predict right we get a free hit, if they predict right, they get a free hit.

I still think U-air should have some kill potential though, seeing as it's what Lucas players consider to be their aerial kill move (even though it kills way to late...). It would also help against Marth and Snake alot for Lucas too.

I don't know, I guess it would help but this turns Lucas into more of a vertical killer than a horizontal that he was in vBrawl and to me that's quite a big change, affects stage CPs and stuff.

Let's leave it to the developers to decide.

 

[The_Altrox]

Um, the link is on the third line of OP. Download it, take the RSBE01.gct there, go to your SD card, assume your SD's root is F: (mine is).

Go to F:/codes, rename the RSBE01 there to something else, then copy over the new RSBE01 you got that allows textures.

So... I take the second or third file? (You said third line, but I don't know which since it's labeled differently.) rename it, and put it in the codes files? If all of this is true, what next? If I download a pakcage for a specific custume costume, do I put it in the file or also in codes? and does it allow me to choose which costume to overwrite? (so if I didn't like costume A, I could specifically replace that one as opposed to costume B) and DO delete the original RSEB package or no? Do I have to delete evevrything so far, or can I just add on like normal?

 

[HailCrest]

Download RSBE01.gct, unless you're using PAL brawl (That's what the E and the P stand for, really; E means English and corresponds to US versions. P, is, well, PAL). If you're using PAL, download RSBP01.gct.

After that, go to your codes folder and rename the RSBE01.gct that is currently there, if any. If there isn't any, then just copy the file that you just downloaded into the folder and proceed from there.

After that, copy the RSBE01.gct that you just downloaded (not renamed, it must be named RSBE01.gct) into the codes folder.

If you're looking to find out how to use textures, then go to the textures thread (it's one of the stickies in Smash Workshop). Skip the first part about exporting a txt into a gct file and go directly to downloading textures and finding out where to put them, since you already have the code which is the file I'm telling you to download now.

 

[The_Altrox]

thanks for the help. If what it is saying is true, I have to create a bunch of new folders? okay. and the stuff I don't alter will remain normal costume?
I think I can handle it from here. I hoppe I can at least

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I don't know, I guess it would help but this turns Lucas into more of a vertical killer than a horizontal that he was in vBrawl and to me that's quite a big change, affects stage CPs and stuff.

Let's leave it to the developers to decide.

Very true.

 

[The_Altrox]

okay, I loaded up a bowser skin to see if it works. BBrawl loaded up like normal, but BOwser was still his normal color even though I labled the pcs and pac files right... are you sure I'm supposed to have the original RESB file and the new one? I think it might be reading just one.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You need to only have the one with file replacement on.