Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just downloaded the code from the first page of this thread. Let me paste it here.

File Patch Code v3.5.1 (NTSC-U) [Phantom Wings]
E0000000 80008000
225664EC 00000000
0401BFE0 4858BE20
065A7E00 00000070
38A00067 38810020
3CE0805A 60E37C18
4BE52531 38A0007F
3883FFE8 38610020
4BE52521 38A00068
60E47C18 38610020
9421FF80 BC410008
38610088 4BA74DB9
7C7C1B78 2C030000
4082000C 38210080
4800001C B8410008
38210080 4BE524E5
38610008 4BA742E1
7C7C1B78 4BA741E8
040223E0 48585BC0
065A7FA0 00000028
80010044 3C608001
6063581C 7C001800
4082000C 7FDDC850
3BDEFFE0 93DB0008
4BA7A424 00000000
0401CD0C 4858B1F4
065A7F00 00000038
2C030000 4182000C
4BA7DD51 4BA74E04
80780008 2C030000
41820014 8118000C
7C634214 7C7B1850
48000008 8078000C
4BA74DE0 00000000
043EE9D8 48000014
043EEBD4 48000014
043D8B9C 48000018
043E9B4C 38600000
043E9D38 38600000
043D8C80 60000000
80000000 80406920
80000001 805A7C00
8A001001 00000000
045A7C10 2F525342
045A7C14 452F7066
80000001 805A7B00
8A001001 00000000
065A7B10 0000000F
2F525342 452F7066
2F736F75 6E642F00
041C6CE0 483E0D20
065A7A00 00000028
9421FF80 BC410008
3C60805A 60637B1F
4BE52931 B8410008
38210080 4BE52995
4BC1F2C4 00000000
065A7900 00000078
9421FF80 7C0802A6
9001000C BC810010
9421FF00 7C872378
54B2BA7E 7CD33378
38800000 9081000C
90810010 90610014
90810018 3880FFFF
9081001C 38610020
90610008 7CE43B78
38A00080 4BE529F5
38610008 4BA752A1
60000000 80210000
B8810010 8001000C
7C0803A6 80210000
4E800020 00000000
043E399C 481C3F04
065A78A0 00000010
80BC0020 7CA59214
3A400000 4BE3C0F4
043DBAEC 481CBDE4
065A78D0 00000018
800302A4 2C130000
41820008 7E609B78
3A600000 4BE3420C
041CDF7C 483D9884
065A7800 00000098
818C0014 9421FF80
BC410008 3D009034
61089D94 7C034000
4082003C 7C882378
3C60804D 60630000
3C80805A 60847B00
7CC53378 38C04200
80E40080 2C070000
40820014 60000000
480000B9 2C030000
41820010 B8410008
80210000 4BC26724
70A501FF 3868FFFF
3C80804C 6084FFFF
7C842A14 38A04001
38A5FFFF 8C040001
9C030001 2C050000
4082FFF0 B8410008
80210000 4BC2670C
141CCF90 483DA770
065A7700 00000048
9421FF80 BC410008
7FE3FB78 3C80805A
60847B00 38A00000
38C04000 480001E5
90640080 807F0008
907A0014 907A005C
907A0074 B8410008
80210000 807F0000
4BC25854 00000000
E0000000 80008000

The confusion is caused by the PAL version which, sadly, only uses version 2.1a which, to my knowledge, is the most recent PAL port of file replacement. If there's a more recent port for PAL, let me know and I'll get the links updated when possible.

 

[hankydysplasia]

Oh, and I've been busy with Medical School, and the Search feature isn't working for me right now.

What are the updates looking like on Falco? He's about my 3rd or 4th pick, and I'm still angry about that B-Throw change so I haven't played him for months. Like you said in your big summary, he's already been made worse by things that make the game better. Is it still a possibility to return his B-Throw angle so that it becomes a stage positioning move? I have found all my games with him most of the play is centered above the stage. I'm missing out on those fun opportunities to attempt spikes and rapid B-Airs after throwing my opponents off the edge. Also, it limits his ability to play his camp game. However, the D-Throw is in a good place, IMO.

 

[hankydysplasia]

The confusion is caused by the PAL version which, sadly, only uses version 2.1a which, to my knowledge, is the most recent PAL port of file replacement. If there's a more recent port for PAL, let me know and I'll get the links updated when possible.

Woops. I understand. Glad everything is up in the NTSC region.

 

[Linkshot]

So, I'd like to put up a major suggestion, regarding grab releases...

Well...

Since the infinites only affect certain characters, we toss a Frame Speed Mod into those characters only.

This way, characters like Yoshi and Bowser still retain their bread-and-butter Grab Release combos.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If anyone knows of any others, please bring them up.

Mario's Jab combo (and I think Luigi's) have wall locks until like 70%, and can be extended further through the use of repeated Jab cancels. Both characters can do a F-throw at 0% to set up into the wall lock.

The ROB D-tilt lock against walls is pretty much a true infinite that leads to a free throw KO.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

So, I'd like to put up a major suggestion, regarding grab releases...

Well...

Since the infinites only affect certain characters, we toss a Frame Speed Mod into those characters only.

This way, characters like Yoshi and Bowser still retain their bread-and-butter Grab Release combos.

Honestly, i like this idea. With Yoshi I would often grab release into a dacus, on occasion regrab and actually throw or release for a f-air.

 

[Big O]

How is DK's Dtilt lock a bigger offender than Marth's? DK's is actually escapable with good SDI unless the wall is pretty tall. Marth's can't be SDI'd out of unless the wall is like 1 foot tall. Marth can also combo into his Dtilt with his aerials while the only real setup DK has for it is Dthrow at very character specific %'s. Marth's Dtilt has less hitlag, shield pokes, and is safer on block.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

@AA, I was thinking about the coding I did for the Jab Lock thing. I think I've programmed it wrong, but I know what I did. I accidentally put the variable-clear in the get-up animation instead of the initial flop animation, when I get home from the library, I'll send you an updated version.

Also IMO, Marth's and Meta's are big offenders b/c they push into the wall and sheild poke, they can be lead into by other attacks and will space themselves. Also ROB's is a pretty bad offender, but he has no real set-ups.

 

[decreasingentropy]

This is a great project that I fully support but I have a question.

What is being done to prevent stalling? I read that you plan to change the way ledges and water works, but is that really enough? When you watch videos of Metaknights and Warios timing people out, they seem to spend more time in the air than abusing the ledges/water.

On a similar note, is Metaknight still too powerful? I know you nerfed his kill moves, but it seems to me that Metaknight wins more often through gimps and timing people out rather than legitimately killing the opponent.

 

[Steeler]

yoshi should have a kill throw imo (to replace chain grab stuff)

decreasingentropy, that's just the nature of brawl, unfortunately. there isn't much you can do about how rewarding simple defensive play is.

 

[SaltyKracka]

yoshi should have a kill throw imo (to replace chain grab stuff)

decreasingentropy, that's just the nature of brawl, unfortunately. there isn't much you can do about how rewarding simple defensive play is.

Unless you're willing to change the game totally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is a great project that I fully support but I have a question.

What is being done to prevent stalling? I read that you plan to change the way ledges and water works, but is that really enough? When you watch videos of Metaknights and Warios timing people out, they seem to spend more time in the air than abusing the ledges/water.

On a similar note, is Metaknight still too powerful? I know you nerfed his kill moves, but it seems to me that Metaknight wins more often through gimps and timing people out rather than legitimately killing the opponent.

Metaknight is still top tier. Nobody is denying that. Nobody thinks he's outright the best character anymore though. I suggested a long time ago that it was Marth, and I believe most people agree with that consensus.

Besides Yoshi getting more reward on grabs, the tethers not named Olimar (and possibly ZSS can be excluded since her grab can be safely comboed into and because she has other dumb stuff going for her) in general need way better reward for a grab. Samus's grab game for the large part was appropriately fixed, and she doesn't really need much more help anyway due to having top tier safe damage output and KO reliability. Link in particular however needs better reward for a grab to be brought up to par with the top tier (I would suggest his D-throw knockback a little more above him and more constant, and some damage buffs decided on his other throws). Lucas also probably would appreciate some more compensation for the fact his grab sucks (buff his pummel more? I'd also point out that his U-throw is largely a useless attack due to his poor juggle options). Toon Link might be able to be improved through buffs on different moves, although his grab is still overall a liability.

 

[Hyrus]

Both Peach and D3 can get back on stage from dropping the ledge with one hop. Someone mentioned Peach being able to before.

Here's an odd one. How about removing Ganon's grounding element on his aerial DownB? I haven't found a strategic use for it and it feels just as luck based as NeutralB. In the spirit of trying to preserve the feel of vbrawl, I think the goal would fair better without it, seeing as an opponent needs to try a get up attack to (reliably) land it and if they don't, Ganon gets punished hard or loses infinitely safer and more useful damage opportunities. Based on my experience alone, of course... input is appreciated.

 

[Lokee]

Here's an odd one. How about removing Ganon's grounding element on his aerial DownB? I haven't found a strategic use for it and it feels just as luck based as NeutralB. In the spirit of trying to preserve the feel of vbrawl, I think the goal would fair better without it, seeing as an opponent needs to try a get up attack to (reliably) land it and if they don't, Ganon gets punished hard or loses infinitely safer and more useful damage opportunities. Based on my experience alone, of course... input is appreciated.

I agree on that one, on one hand if you land the "grounding" wizkick it wrecks your foe with almost any followup especially hardhitting attacks and tacks on good damage and it looks cool but.....

On the other hand the kick itself is hard to land, and if it misses its always certain you will pay for it severely and the grounding itself only really holds them down at highmid or high % but as Ganon you usually wanna be killing around those % instead of trying to land this overly risky move. I can understand the concept of prediction and how it adds to his tech chasing game but lets not kid ourselves here Ganon needs more solid options then one of the extreme risky psuedo gimicky variety.

Id also like the spike to be removed from the duration of the move as I miss it killing from the top and my foe being over cautious from attempting something from below.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have seen that grounding landed a lot. It is definitely very far from useless; it's a clearly large buff. The main follow-up I see is fsmash; that alone is really worth it.

I'm also not convinced MK is top tier in Bbrawl. I'd put him in the second tier probably. Just hold center stage, and it's so hard for him to kill you. It's like fighting Sonic in terms of how you don't die, seriously.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The back hit of MK's D-smash is a viable killer comparable to (or a bit weaker than) vBrawl Samus's D-tilt that is safe and hits on frame 10. Sonic doesn't have a fast move that even kills at high percents. He just doesn't kill you period without mindgaming you into a slow move. MK's slow killers like F-smash and Down-B have ways to be applied more safely (F-smash is safe on block. Down-B can actually be used for mobility mindgames instead of killing).

Metaknight's KO issues are more like vBrawl Yoshi's KO issues in a way, in that Yoshi does have some moves with decent enough frame data that might be able to kill, but only at high percents.

 

[camzy]

I have seen that grounding landed a lot. It is definitely very far from useless; it's a clearly large buff. The main follow-up I see is fsmash; that alone is really worth it.

I'm also not convinced MK is top tier in Bbrawl. I'd put him in the second tier probably. Just hold center stage, and it's so hard for him to kill you. It's like fighting Sonic in terms of how you don't die, seriously.

MK is still definitely top tier and I don't think there's anything you can do about it with the project's limitations. His entire game is suited to gimps and he still has godly recovery. His moves still have disjointed hitboxes, high priority and insane speed. He still has two glides and decent kill moves (though nerfed considerably compared to vBrawl.) Unless you radically change him by either decreasing his priority and hitboxes or nerfing his recovery, he'll still be top tier.

 

[Hyrus]

I have seen that grounding landed a lot. It is definitely very far from useless; it's a clearly large buff. The main follow-up I see is fsmash; that alone is really worth it.

I never meant to imply that it was useless, only that it's risky and generally not worth it. As Lokee points out, it only holds them down long enough at mid/high percentages anyway. Ganon doesn't have a problem with KO's, he's got problems with everything else.

"I have seen people landing it a lot" is not, exactly, a substantial rebuttal. You don't need to defend or explain its follow ups (of which no one brought up). Like NeutralB, it's high reward at way too much risk.

It's extremely different from vbrawl and it doesn't contribute significantly to Ganon's game like, say, the Dtilt change. If the goal is to balance Brawl and retain as much of vbrawl as possible, why keep it?

 

[sman5093]

It seems like the knockback was changed.

 

[Eldiran]

I never meant to imply that it was useless, only that it's risky and generally not worth it. As Lokee points out, it only holds them down long enough at mid/high percentages anyway. Ganon doesn't have a problem with KO's, he's got problems with everything else.

"I have seen people landing it a lot" is not, exactly, a substantial rebuttal. You don't need to defend or explain its follow ups (of which no one brought up). Like NeutralB, it's high reward at way too much risk.

It's extremely different from vbrawl and it doesn't contribute significantly to Ganon's game like, say, the Dtilt change. If the goal is to balance Brawl and retain as much of vbrawl as possible, why keep it?

I think by saying he's seen it landed a lot he's implying that it does decently contribute to Ganon's game.

Also, even if it isn't landed doesn't mean it doesn't factor in. Just knowing that Ganon can do that to you makes you play more carefully.

However, I'd still like to see in the next version a return to the original upward knockback against aerial opponents. It should still impale foes on the ground. That would be the best of both worlds.

 

[Big O]

I think by saying he's seen it landed a lot he's implying that it does decently contribute to Ganon's game.

Also, even if it isn't landed doesn't mean it doesn't factor in. Just knowing that Ganon can do that to you makes you play more carefully.

However, I'd still like to see in the next version a return to the original upward knockback against aerial opponents. It should still impale foes on the ground. That would be the best of both worlds.

I'm pretty sure his aerial down b does hit airborne foes upwards. The only difference when used against aerial foes is that the initial hit (the spike) is much weaker.

I for one like the grounding for aeral down b since the payoff is huge. Even though it is not worth the risk most of the time, just having it as an option is pretty nice (like for punishing D3 up b on stage or w/e).

 

[Lokee]

However, I'd still like to see in the next version a return to the original upward knockback against aerial opponents. It should still impale foes on the ground. That would be the best of both worlds.

I like this the best ^

However I rather Ganon get some solid defensive options. It always erks me that such a defensive character in terms of playstyle can have so few or none of these options. Perhaps an Out Of Shield one. Or Fair Fixed PLZ!!

I can understand the focus of Changing as little as possible but when you have a character that absolutely had no advantageous matchups whatsoever it just seems that you have to go to the extreme to solve this problem.

EDIT: It took me sometime to learn but I made a quick Ganon.pac that has his Fair fixed in case anyone wants to test it out or just see how it would be.
Here is the download link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jqn2gjgrun5
Basically I just changed the sychro timer to an asynchro timer so it auto cancels and has IASA frames in a full hop and I gotta say its much better

Also If anyone wants my Balanced Brawl Title screen again here ya go
http://www.mediafire.com/?zyznljemhd2

 

[uhmuzing]

Forgive my utter stupidity when it broils down to coding and hacking and similar, but do I have to use Homebrew to access your Title and Ganon fair thing? Or can I just slap it onto the SD Card I have BBrawl on?

 

[Lokee]

Forgive my utter stupidity when it broils down to coding and hacking and similar, but do I have to use Homebrew to access your Title and Ganon fair thing? Or can I just slap it onto the SD Card I have BBrawl on?

Not extactly sure, Im using the homebrew method but im ...probably sure... you cant...probably. Try putting them on your SD and seeing if they work

Remember to put the Ganon.pac in
private\wii\APP\RSBE\pf\fighter\ganon

and the Title screen in
private\wii\APP\RSBE\pfmenu2

and dont be afraid to ask questions either. Chances are if your asking a question then a hundred other people need the same answer.

 

[uhmuzing]

Thanks, put in my SD Card right now (though my computer's not reading it again danget).

I've heard there are risks to Homebrew, so that's why I don't use it. Really, I don't even know what the "Homebrew channel" is....... >_<

 

[Big O]

I don't think there are any risks to most legit homebrew (like the homebrew channel). Only things that are risky that I know of are bad wads and downgrading your OS. I'd definitely get the homebrew channel on your Wii but that's just me. It basically makes homebrew (like Gecko OS and other apps) very convienient and easy to use.

 

[Lokee]

Thanks, put in my SD Card right now (though my computer's not reading it again danget).

I've heard there are risks to Homebrew, so that's why I don't use it. Really, I don't even know what the "Homebrew channel" is....... >_<

Its basically a user created channel that allows acess to the coding and processes of the Wii for other channels, hacks, application etc. the wii normally couldnt use. However its illegal and its discussion is banned on these forums so ill just end here.

 

[sman5093]

I use the PAL version of brawl and I kinda didn't get how to download it for the PAL version. can anyone explain?

 

[uhmuzing]

I don't think there are any risks to most legit homebrew (like the homebrew channel). Only things that are risky that I know of are bad wads and downgrading your OS. I'd definitely get the homebrew channel on your Wii but that's just me. It basically makes homebrew (like Gecko OS and other apps) very convienient and easy to use.

Hmmmm.... I understood about half of that but yeah....

However its illegal and its discussion is banned on these forums so ill just end here.

Right......

Not extactly sure, Im using the homebrew method but im ...probably sure... you cant...probably. Try putting them on your SD and seeing if they work

Remember to put the Ganon.pac in
private\wii\APP\RSBE\pf\fighter\ganon

and the Title screen in
private\wii\APP\RSBE\pfmenu2

and dont be afraid to ask questions either. Chances are if your asking a question then a hundred other people need the same answer.

Alright anyway, I've run into a problem. Found my SD Card by manually exploring all the folders and drives and stuff. BUt there isn't a "pf" folder in the "RSBE" folder. There's two folders labeled "rp" and "st" instead. I also cannot find a "pfmenu2" folder.

 

[Lokee]

Hmmmm.... I understood about half of that but yeah....



Right......



Alright anyway, I've run into a problem. Found my SD Card by manually exploring all the folders and drives and stuff. BUt there isn't a "pf" folder in the "RSBE" folder. There's two folders labeled "rp" and "st" instead. I also cannot find a "pfmenu2" folder.

Then you have to create the folders as such as Ive laid it out. So basically go into the "RSBE" folder create the "pf" folder and inside that create the "ganon" folder and drop the ganon.pac in there
for the title screen go into the "RSBE" folder and create the "pfmenu2" folder and drop the title screen file i gave you

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not sure I look at Ganon as defensive really. I mean, in standard Brawl maybe you look at him that way because he's so hopeless and you think playing defensively is your best hope, but I think rushdown makes so much more sense for him just because, as has been stated countless times, no one outhits him, but everyone sure does outcamp him. I wouldn't willingly camp with a character who loses a camp war with the entire cast; I think my better gamble is to try attacking and go fishing for good stuff.

When I say I've seen it landed, I mean I've seen Ganon used a lot, and when he's used he lands it way more than you'd really expect. I mean, it's super punishable. If you miss with it, you eat an Ike fsmash or whatever your opponent's best punisher is. However, it's really not that slow to start up. If you're precise, you see you have a lot of opportunities with it. Think of Jigglypuff's Rest in Melee. No one in their right mind would rank that as anything but one of the best moves in the game... and she eats a Warlock Punch on block or whiff. Ganon's grounding in Bbrawl isn't quite as good as Jigglypuff's Rest in Melee, but it's pretty fantastic when he lands it. At lower percentages, he can probably get usmash (remember to factor in opposing reaction time to mashing out, especially since they won't really expect to be hit like that). I think he can also go for a thunderstomp out of the grounding at lower percentages; there are golden ranges he can get going like that and do insane damage out of it. At higher percentages, he gets fsmash. At obscene percentages, he gets Warlock Punch, but that's not a common or practical situation. If he is at those lower percentages, he just did a lot of damage either with a usmash (just as a single hit, usmash isn't exactly weak, especially when you add the raw damage of the grounding, and he gets the positional advantage of having the opponent in the air above him) or a dair chain (totally insane damage, if he manages this he has basically taken a stock it's so much damage). At the higher percentages, that fsmash is very likely to kill, and if not it does a lot of damage and puts them off-stage where they're ready to die. At the obscene damages, it's just a kill, and it's not a terribly slow option so it's nice to have (though you have many options for kills at that point).

I'm pretty sure the only real change that is bad for Ganondorf coming out of it is that the 290 degree semi-spike hit is weaker (I'm looking at the next version's FitGanon.pac and I see an 80 degree angle hit on aerial Wizard's Foot (which is a very upward angle); I do remember some issue with the upward hit, but I think that maybe was only in the pre-release version), but honestly, were you actually getting anything useful out of that? In general, how much was aerial Wizard's Foot (or Wizard's Foot in general, let's be real honest here) helping you in standard Brawl? As a whole package, Wizard's Foot is easily Ganondorf's most buffed move, and the grounding aspect of the aerial version really is very useful to him. Remember in addition to fishing for it out of random predictions (making a "psychic" move it would be said in other fighting game communities) or as punishment, you can also mix it into your tech chases.

The main thing I don't buy is that Ganon can actually be holistically shut out in general. I could go over the myriad options you have to deal with shield happy people or poke happy people or whatever over and over again, but the main point is that if the Ganon player is on top of his predictions, he can avoid stuff and land stuff. You do have to be on top of such a game; you need to be both in their face and in their head to win with Ganon with the balance that Ganon has so much potential to just crush people with the greatest raw power in the entire game and one of the best set of moves for general follow-up out of the entire cast. I've seen him in action a lot; I know it can work. I think people like A2 muddy the water a bit since, if you notice, he also thinks Ike and Bowser are pretty bad. His is a position that seems to assert that being slow makes a character bad independent of other virtues, and I think he really misrepresents the nature of human reaction and the complexity of in-game situations to write off viable options.

Ganon is undoubtedly the most buffed member of the entire cast as things stand. I don't think Ganon mains have to feel hopeless in Balanced Brawl. I think just playing smart and playing bold can make things work. If anything, the playstyle I see for Ganon fits his character perfectly. His plans (as well-laid as they may be) have dire consequences for him if he fails, but he does not and cannot worry about consequences. The prize of victory is the only thing of concern to Ganondorf, and he simply relies on his power without even considering what happens if his power fails him. In other words, don't play conservatively; the strengths of this character lie in taking risks. Even though you suffer greatly if your risks don't pay off, you are rewarded so handsomely if they do that you need to take those risks anyway.

I don't expect him to be a popular character like this because it takes a special kind of player to make that sort of thing work, but in any fighting game you need your characters who are general purpose that many types of people can make work (like Mario or Meta Knight), and you have your highly specialized characters that demand more specific interests and skills from their users (like Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, or Ganondorf). The later group will always be less popular, but they aren't necessarily worse.

---

I think Meta Knight is easy to overestimate. I mean, remember gimping is one of the lesser skills in this game. Quite a few stages highly devalue it (try gimping someone on Onett), and a lot of characters are not practically gimpable in any way (try gimping Mr. Game & Watch or Pikachu if the users know what they are doing; it's not impossible but even for Meta Knight it's very hard). His remaining good kill moves (fsmash and glide attack) are pretty easy to avoid when you aren't dancing around dsmashes and Shuttle Loops so intently; I've had matches where I live to 200% all three stocks against MK, and that's just making it really hard on him to win. His disjointedness and incredible attack speed do Meta Knight a lot of favors no doubt, but his really trashy air speed and total lack of a projectile (notice how few characters lack one, and MK is on that list) is not exactly a small price for him to pay. The nerfed Mach Tornado alone also immediately gives MK some problem matchups; DK and Bowser love fighting MK when Mach Tornado isn't half-invalidating them anymore. Factor in the nerfed KO power and the buffs the heavyweights got, and super attack speed Meta Knight suddenly has to think about general issues dealing with slower, more powerful characters in general. His attacks don't stop theirs, he's too slow in the air to get out of the way, and they just hit so much harder than he does.Sure he's still obviously a character with a lot going for him, but I see some real cracks in his armor that make me think he doesn't really deserve top tier status on a platter in Bbrawl.

 

[uhmuzing]

The Ganon and Title Screen .pac's didn't work. >_> Ah well, thanks anyway.

Could I ask what's going to happen once BBrawl becomes a solid deal? I mean, alot of people know what Balanced Brawl is, but its not very popular at all from what I see.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure the only real change that is bad for Ganondorf coming out of it is that the 290 degree semi-spike hit is weaker (I'm looking at the next version's FitGanon.pac and I see an 80 degree angle hit on aerial Wizard's Foot (which is a very upward angle); I do remember some issue with the upward hit, but I think that maybe was only in the pre-release version), but honestly, were you actually getting anything useful out of that? In general, how much was aerial Wizard's Foot (or Wizard's Foot in general, let's be real honest here) helping you in standard Brawl? As a whole package, Wizard's Foot is easily Ganondorf's most buffed move, and the grounding aspect of the aerial version really is very useful to him. Remember in addition to fishing for it out of random predictions (making a "psychic" move it would be said in other fighting game communities) or as punishment, you can also mix it into your tech chases.

Ganon's aerial wizkick is actually one of his most essential moves for getting back to the ground. That move alone makes Ganon a good deal less straightforward to juggle trap. The raw power of that move in general makes it valuable, and every other match, I get a random kill with it at like 90%, or it gives me one more opportunity to get back to the ground and do stuff when they actually get hit by it.

The initial spike hitbox however should never actually hit anyone.

The main thing I don't buy is that Ganon can actually be holistically shut out in general. I could go over the myriad options you have to deal with shield happy people or poke happy people or whatever over and over again, but the main point is that if the Ganon player is on top of his predictions, he can avoid stuff and land stuff.

Except he's probably only landing like 1 hit for every 8 hits he's taking due to him just sucking at getting out of pressure, traps, etc.

I think people like A2 muddy the water a bit since, if you notice, he also thinks Ike and Bowser are pretty bad. His is a position that seems to assert that being slow makes a character bad independent of other virtues, and I think he really misrepresents the nature of human reaction and the complexity of in-game situations to write off viable options.

I will state that most players just are plain terrible at this game. The average professional for this game is comparatively speaking MUCH MUCH MUCH less competent than the average professional for other competitive games, like Melee for example. However, matchup theory is not supposed to represent the average metagame. It's supposed to represent the metagame at top level with people who know how to properly apply reaction time and optimize options.

Most players for this game currently don't have a good grip of vertical spacing, deliberate powershielding, optimally executing traps, edgeguarding/recovering correctly, and establishing good walls or zoning. On top of that, almost everyone makes several technical errors each stock. It's only natural that characters with random powerful gimmicks do better against players who make dumb mistakes. However, everyone has room for improvement at the same time, and players only get better over time, which only is bad news for limited characters.

Ganon, Ike, and Bowser are all terrible characters in terms of matchups, which is what this project is based on. The only thing that will keep them viable is the sheer majority of terrible players who can't deal with them correctly. They can do virtually nothing that can't be avoided or countered.

A character doesn't have to be blisteringly fast to be good however. G&W is the best example of this, since he has a lot of safe pressure and KO moves, and some very solid traps to set up into kills that are also safe to apply when used correctly, and several of these traps are also quick to come out.

Ganon, Ike, and Bowser aren't necessarily much slower than G&W in terms of startup, but they lack a lot in terms of safety, pressure options, reliable/effective traps, and KO strategies in general. G&W in a sense basically just outclasses them at what they try to do. He suffers less from traps, does better establishing traps, deals damage a lot more consistently, and in some cases, actually kills earlier than they do.

Ganon is undoubtedly the most buffed member of the entire cast as things stand.

No, that would be Samus or Link. Unless you're just simply counting individual random items from a list. There are a number things on that list of changes that are MUCH more significant than what is often called a game-changer.

I don't think Ganon mains have to feel hopeless in Balanced Brawl. I think just playing smart and playing bold can make things work. If anything, the playstyle I see for Ganon fits his character perfectly. His plans (as well-laid as they may be) have dire consequences for him if he fails, but he does not and cannot worry about consequences. The prize of victory is the only thing of concern to Ganondorf, and he simply relies on his power without even considering what happens if his power fails him. In other words, don't play conservatively; the strengths of this character lie in taking risks. Even though you suffer greatly if your risks don't pay off, you are rewarded so handsomely if they do that you need to take those risks anyway.

Uh, you do have to worry about consequences. He gets **** comboed, trapped like hell, and gimped easily. His reward ratio to how badly he can get ***** is not very inspiring after you factor the sheer odds against him in landing any hit that matters. Fundamentally, Ganon can only hope is opponent gets baited, or he loses. You have to hope that people do stuff like roll into a D-air, commit to really bad approaches that you can B-reverse Flame Choke, space badly enough that they don't occupy Ganon's blindspots. Ganon is the ultimate test to playing conservatively. You have to outpatience your opponent and basically pray and wait until they do something very dumb and specific, and if they choose not to do that, then you're screwed.

 

[Alphatron]

The Ganon and Title Screen .pac's didn't work. >_> Ah well, thanks anyway.

Could I ask what's going to happen once BBrawl becomes a solid deal? I mean, alot of people know what Balanced Brawl is, but its not very popular at all from what I see.

Is Balanced Brawl currently running the File Patch code? You'll need that for any of those things to work at all.

Unfortunately, I believe Bbrawl will be held back by the same thing that holds back other hacks. It will be viewed as being made by people who are bad at the game and wanted to put their own spin on things.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Unfortunately, I believe Bbrawl will be held back by the same thing that holds back other hacks. It will be viewed as being made by people who are bad at the game and wanted to put their own spin on things.

LOL that's so ironic. Virtually everyone sucks at playing Brawl.

Which is not relevant to what can be understood about this game and what we can aim to improve ourselves towards.

 

[Alphatron]

LOL that's so ironic. Virtually everyone sucks at playing Brawl.

Which is not relevant to what can be understood about this game and what we can aim to improve ourselves towards.

I'll be honest, I think you may be right about this. I can watch melee matches and be surprised because people know the game so well and show that they have total control over their characters. While I don't expect the melee feel in brawl matches at all, very few videos actually impress me because the players in general seem as though they could be better. Some of the M2K vs. Ally's Snake matches were actually good. But I guess its not about impressing the viewers, its about doing what it takes to win and whatever you find to actually be effective. You don't need to be good at the game to acknowledge this fact.

As far as Bbrawl is concerned, I've noticed that there are a handful of tourney players who express a certain arrogance towards others for not thinking along the exact same mindset. In the tactical discussion, there's another topic talking about whether MK should be banned, and the idea of people whining over game balance is actually brought up alongside the statement, "You should just get better so you can defeat Metaknight."

While I prefer a balanced game with more viable characters, it turns out that not everyone appearantly does. Unbalanced as it may be, people may stick with vbrawl since it makes them money and they see no reason to switch. If they have no complaints about their tournament scene, then being open minded won't even be an option. See Xyro.

 

[uhmuzing]

LOL that's so ironic. Virtually everyone sucks at playing Brawl.

What I would think is ironic is how people who play Brawl suck at it when it's a game that is considered to take less skill than others to be good at.

 

[Linkshot]

Yeah, the problem is that most people think this hack is for players that "aren't competitive enough to drop their low tier for a higher tier character"

 

[IrohDW]

I tested the pac with ganon's fixed fair and it works great. It isn't any better against grounded opponents, but it works wonders against aerial opponents. This definitely needs to be in the next bbrawl release.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, the problem is that most people think this hack is for players that "aren't competitive enough to drop their low tier for a higher tier character"

Or that it's useless for "real tournaments"...