Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Amazing Ampharos]

I should point out that the site is updated to include most changes; feel free to peruse the site to see information about the characters in their final states.

 

[Ussi]

Pivot grab out of rollout sounds awesome o_o. I know how much I've just shields rollout, now I have to counter/jump over it XD

 

[Thinkaman]

I've had my Wii lock-up on the Stage Editor screen a few times as well since I started using the RC builds. Everything is correct as far as SD card set-up is concerned, and the hacked custom stage is visible on the Stage Editor screen.

However, the Wii occasionally freezes right as the Stack Smash is about to happen. I just force reboot and keep doing it until it works, so it's not insurmountable, but it is a new issue that never happened with the original BBrawl release.

Probably not significant, but I wanted to corroborate that there are occasional lock-ups with the newer builds.

Edit: Re-read the earlier post I was responding to. He was booting incorrectly; I am not. I follow the correct procedure, but it locks on occasion anyway. The original release would occasionally fail to launch and would simply idle on the Stage Editor screen, but it was very rare --perhaps only 10% of launches failed. The rate of failure is notably higher with the RC builds, probably around 20-30% and it is more severe. (A total system freeze rather than just idling on the Stage Editor screen.)

Just letting you know for potential debugging purposes.

Also, downloading the new release. Some friends are coming over shortly to help test it out.

Interesting, I'll look into this. On my end I haven't seen any behavior other than the usual 5-10% chance of idle not loading. Are you doing anything before loading, including going into the character select screen or letting it load a random CPU demo match on the title screen? Anything that loads a new file into memory increases the chance of this happening it seems, though it often still works.

 

[IrohDW]

Is it possible to make the title screen load faster by using file replacement?

 

[Thinkaman]

Is it possible to make the title screen load faster by using file replacement?

I'm not sure what you mean. We're actually already loading common5.

Also, I tied up the last loose end: I finally got Rollout Pivot Grab working on Kirby. The rc3 download has been updated.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When you watch Taj play M2 you really can't say that...

Watch Taj get his *** handed to him by M2K's Marth and I assure you, M2 is terribad once his opponent knows the matchup. Everything Taj does with M2 is just capitalizing on mistakes and bad commitments and perfect combo knowledge on things that are normally extremely situational.

Ike is no different that way...he only has matchup inexperience tricks in his favor. All of his stuff is either insanely predictable or beatable on reaction or through smart conservative play, and none of his buffs address that, and his matchups are all wrong anyway.

The only thing holding Ike up at this point if the fact that Brawl is dominated by low skill players. The average professional for this game is nowhere nearly as competent as the average professional for other competitive games, and Ike simply benefits in a metagame where the majority of players don't deliberately powershield most non-projectile attacks, make a lot of technical errors, and fail to establish traps properly, all things that really destroy Ike when executed correctly. Also not looking good for Ike is when people start timing shieldgrabs between Jab combos. Basically the fact that it's even possible already means Ike literally has ZERO safe options he can rely on.

Don't make me dig up the quote where Ryko stated ADHD powershielded 80% of his F-airs. With the Ice Climbers.

Ike's trap options are also the worst in the game, since none of them actually can beat reaction time. If he whiffs any of his "trap" options, he's too laggy to continue pressuring his opponent most of the time. Now that Ganon has a reason to randomly throw out F-airs and F-tilts a lot, and with Wizkick now making Falco and Olimar think twice about their walling options, he basically outclasses Ike completely, outspeeding and overpowering Ike on everything that matters, and actually having the ability to juggle and edgeguard trap.

And Ganondorf is still mediocre. What does that mean for Ike? I really highly doubt a shieldgrabbable Jab that doesn't lead to kills comes close to justifying that Ike is somehow better than the current build's Ganondorf (who is clearly still bad). The only other things Ike has on Ganondorf is a marginally better grab (Ganon's grab game however is RIDICULOUSLY better than Ike's), and I guess being less gimpable in most matchups.

To clarify how bad I think Ganon is, that post of my impressions of Ike's matchups basically is what I think about Ganon's matchups, just take away 5 points on about 2/3s of them. They both suck a lot against the same things, but Ganondorf has way better followups and doesn't really lose in terms of legitimate punish options.

Ike might have a slightly better case for having improved matchups if his aerials or Jab actually had buffs, but this is not the case (with the exception of the N-air IASA window which is still a fairly small change). His "largest" buff is for QD, which improves his recovery and makes him somewhat less exploitable to juggles, but really does nothing to improve his ability to create openings or punish people effectively (well, you can edgeguard with it, not that it will kill anyone).

 

[G_Man]

I like the Balanced Brawl Boni... Mystery Gift is perfect for Jiggs xD
I hope there will be a PAL-Version of the codes. too.

 

[Ussi]

I think you should add on the first post:

On our site there is a chat box where you can find wifi Bbrawl matches with others! then the steps to get there


speaking of which.. anyone wanna play some matches?

EDIT: @A2 I killed Ganon by using QD into him and he couldn't come back lol.. (other than that yea ... pretty much)

 

[G_Man]

Could it be? DDDs dthrow to dsmash is guaranted on some Chars? Dthrow to dtilt on every char?

 

[Ussi]

Could it be? DDDs dthrow to dsmash is guaranted on some Chars? Dthrow to dtilt on every char?

No, you have to predict them. if they don't move, dtilt away! if they roll to you (predict tech or get up roll) dsmash! or grab again! if they roll away from you.. run and grab again! (or lose them if they are a long roller... ie Ike )

 

[G_Man]

Dtilt after dthrow is faster than Ganon's Follow Ups... I think it's guaranted. I have no problems with a guaranted dtilt, but with a guaranted dsmash on some chars...if it's true.

 

[Ussi]

Dtilt after dthrow is faster than Ganon's Follow Ups... I think it's guaranted. I have no problems with a guaranted dtilt, but with a guaranted dsmash on some chars...if it's true.

You can tech DDD's dthrow

 

[Thinkaman]

From the archives...

King Dedede's Options Out of D-throw

King Dedede's 13 frame advantage out of d-throw gives him 3 main options: Tech Chase Regrab, D-tilt, and D-smash. He can also occasionally get other smashes or a dash attack given specific opponent reactions, and can usually get a petty f-tilt if he wants, but those three options are most rewarding and easy to do.

Tech Chase Regrab

King Dedede can Tech Chase Regrab enemies out of his d-throw almost always. Luigi slides too far away, but otherwise any reaction but an away roll will be easy for DDD to grab. A few characters with long tech rolls can escape by DIing the throw away, rolling away, and buffering a spotdodge or jab. Here's how often you can regrab away rolls:

Always:
Mario
Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus
Zero suit Samus
Pit
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Falcon
Pikachu
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch
Sonic

Only if no DI:
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Lucas
Snake

Never:
Ike
Luigi

Keep in mind that except for slippery ol' Luigi, anyone is really easy to grab if there is any sort of edge or object that cuts a roll short. In other words, those 7 other characters that can escape need a long empty stage away from DDD to do so.

D-tilt

Immediately buffering a d-tilt can hit almost all characters in the game, and can hit about half of them even if they DI away from DDD!

Always:
Mario
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Wario
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Falcon
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Sonic

Only if no DI:
Peach
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Zelda
Toon Link
Samus
Pit
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Marth
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake

Never:
Luigi
Squirtle

A word of warning about DI: If the opponent DI's a tiny bit up instead of just directly away, they will bounce a tiny bit farther than usual. In rare situations that extra inch can help them avoid the d-tilt.

Conversely, if the stage inhibits the DI'd bounce in any way, additional characters can be guaranteed d-tilt'd. Meta Knight and Olimar are good examples.

King Dedede's "D-throw Spike"

Because King Dedede's d-throw throws enemies down into the stage in front of him, a DDD d-throw from the very edge will send opponents off to their doom diagonally. Although this is a very strong trick for DDD, it can be hard to setup and can be survived by every character.

DDD is only able to do this when throwing someone from the VERY edge of the stage. In other words, this can only practically happen when the opponent is rolling towards the edge (such as a tech roll after DDD's d-throw) and DDD dash grabs them. If you want DDD to never get the "spike" on you, avoiding it is easy: Just don't roll into the edge of the stage when DDD might be able to grab you.

This throw does not grow any stronger with damage, nor weaker with stale moves. It is a constant distance. Furthermore, every character in the game is capable of back onto the stage even if DDD tries to ledgehog. For many characters with poor recoveries, this requires good DI and quick reactions! DI *AWAY* from the stage to lose as little height as possible, then double jump ASAP. It can sometimes be tricky, but even Olimar can make it back on top of the stage from this weak "spike"!

Teching King Dedede's D-throw

Since King Dedede is d-throwing enemies into the stage, it's possible but very difficult to tech it. To be precise, there is a 2-frame window to tech the throw.

The good news for DDD is that it is BETTER for him when his throw is teched! He still gets a full 13-frame advantage, and now the enemy isn't even bouncing away from him any! DDD doesn't get a guaranteed d-smash, but he can do anything faster, including regrab.

If the opponent techs into a roll... That's even better! DDD enjoys a whopping 25-frame advantage while they slowly roll a short distance.

So while enemies with amazing timing might try to surprise or throw off DDD by teching his d-throw, this is in general a bad idea that DDD can easily punish on reaction.

 

[Nakihito]

I could say so many things in response, but perhaps some people here would be served by a bit of video review of high level play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEQ16Wxuea8

The last game in the set is easy enough to find. This is standard Brawl, very recent, and clearly high level play involving Ike (unless UTD Zac isn't good enough of a player for you to count as high level!). You may want to count how many jabs were landed in this match (a very large number), you may want to count how often SDI rendered them ineffective (not often at all), and you may want to remember that Mr. Game & Watch has a very strong long range game that doesn't require him to get that close to hit his opponent (giving him way above average options to deal with Ike's zoning). Now just imagine what it's like for someone like Kirby or Jigglypuff that has to actually get a lot closer to hit Ike...

Funny. I've never actually heard of UTDZac nor Mr Doom. Anyways, after watching the matches a few times, it seems quite apparent to me that UTDZac had no idea what the hell he was doing. GnW has a dtilit that's relatively similar to Marth's in that it also destroys Ike's ground game and recovery. I saw it used very little and not even that well when used. There was way to much bair even after it was clear that Mr Doom knew how to SDI out of it. I don't think UTDZac got the memo, but bair is a pretty bad move as most characters can SDI out of it and punish or PS the landing hit and punish. Also, and I may be wrong on this, but isn't GnW's bair generally better when full hopped like his fair?

Now if you watched some of Mr Doom's other videos,
like the one here against Ally who actually knows what he's doing,
you'll see Ike rendered very helpless against someone who can do what he does better.
Here's a match against a very medicore Marth. Its honestly stupid how many mistakes this Marth made that Ike just could not punish or capitalize on.
Finally, here's a match against Dojo's Metaknight too.

These are all vBrawl videos, but I don't honestly imagine that the match ups have significantly changed in BBrawl, if at all. Every character can get away with murder if Ike whiffs anything other than his first jab (and even then...) or even touches his opponent's shield. Then, once the pressure is on him, Ike has very few options. If he's in his shield, then most Ike's generally go for the jab or shield grab, although he can Aether OoS. The first option we've been over (and I go over again latter on) and the second option leads to a reset. Aether OoS is generally unsafe because you can SDI out of the apex or even DI out of the first hit which leaves plenty of time to be punished.

Its not very hard for characters like Jiggs and Kirby to get past Ike's zoning. I'm pretty sure Jiggs and Kirby have an easy time weaving in and out of Ike's fair range with all the cool down lag it has. nair is probably not as worrisome as before because Ike has to choose how he wants to end it. If he auto-cancels, then he has to commit at least 40 frames into a short hop nair. This leaves him out in front in the ending frames which both characters can capitalize on. Otherwise, he can start the nair latter on in his short hop and take the 13 frames of landing lag while keeping his front side from being open. The choice with the least amount of time committed is the second (which completely nullifies the nair buff), although with Jiggs's aerial movement speed, she could still probably punish him.

Here's a video against Affinity's Wario, albeit a little outdated.

These videos are against DMG using Wario for rounds 1, 3, and 4 and Diddy for round 2.
round 1
round 2
round 3
round 4

For the most part, DMG has an easy time getting into Ike's range. He also has an easy time staying inside his range. Using characters with similar mobility (i.e. Jiggs, Squirtle, and Kirby) should have similar results. Also, DMG SDIs out of Ike's jab and then punishes him for it multiple times.

I'm going to go as far as saying we have a Top-5-in-World material Ike here in Ottawa...he won biweeklies. Ike definitely is not as bad as Ganondorf. You can't punish tipped autocancelled fAirs. fSmash is a really good edgeguard (charge it, then release when they get back onstage). uSmash is just way too good of a trap. Jab cancels are so beastly.

Ike is fine.

You realize that Ike's fair doesn't auto cancel until frame 45, right? And that Ike's short hop only has 38 airborne frames, right? And that his full hop has 56 airborne frames, right? That basically means that you leave yourself open for at least 24 frames before you're able to fast fall and autocancel that move and if you screw up the timing and fast fall too early or fair too late, then you still suffer the 22 frames of landing lag along with the 24ish frames you spent waiting to autocancel. That means you have between 24 and 46 frames of lag after using fair. Now consider the fact that you can PS (or even just regular shield) it on reaction and you have an Ike getting punished with anything the opponent wants. In the end, you're better off doing a SHFF fair and suffering only 22 frames of lag.

Edge guarding with fsmash is just as lulzy as edge guarding with Eruption. Except you trade a little bit more range for no super armor. You can still time out the charge by re grabbing the edge and even if you're feeling ballsy, you still have 7 frames to get try and get away.

I'm not sure what you mean by usmash traps. Are you talking about platform abuse or baiting air dodges? Either way, they aren't anything special. Marth's utilt and Metaknight's uair cover the lower Battle Field platforms just as well as Ike's, but Marth and Metaknight get more reward because they can actually juggle. Even DK and D3 can cover BF platforms as well as Ike. The only difference is that they can actually capitalize on their opponent being above them. Ike's usmash is also not good for baiting air dodges because if they don't get hit, then Ike's opponent gets around 30 frames to punish (read: Ike fsmash).

We've been over how Ike's jab cancels are pretty crap compared to other characters. Ike can jab cancel into jab and grab. The former will eventually cause Ike to get punished while the latter is just a reset. Mario, Luigi, Falcon, Shiek, Falco, Peach, Snake, Kirby, Link, and Zamus easily have better jab games than Ike. Ike's jab is only considered good because it does a lot of damage and looks like it can kill. In reality, however, it can be SDI'd out of and I'm almost positive that Marth is not the only character that can upb out of the third hit. Seriously, the third hit leaves about 13 frames of the opponent either in hit stun (which I think is only about 7 or 8 frames) or doing nothing. It also has a 25 frame disadvantage (read: Marth can fsmash you out of the third hit of jab if he shields).

Ike is not fine.

...Lots of stuff about D3's tech chase...

Yeah, I can't see how anyone can believe Ike is fine when D3 has similar range and power, while also being heavier, having a better recovery, and having a safer moveset than Ike. D3 is another character that does what Ike is supposed to do better. With characters like D3, DK, Snake, and Ganondorf, why would you ever pick Ike?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

UTDZac is the best G&W.

 

[shanus]

Funny. I've never actually heard of UTDZac nor Mr Doom. Anyways, after watching the matches a few times, it seems quite apparent to me that UTDZac had no idea what the hell he was doing.

I lol'd, go look up some tourney results

 

[GHNeko]

Funny. I've never actually heard of UTDZac nor Mr Doom.

...Please crawl out of that rock.

Not only is he a mod here, he is also one of TX's best players, and is the best GaW period in Brawl who places Nation wide and is a top doubles player.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268918 - NO KOAST v3

Singles Results:http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/977/37756218.jpg
1: Ally ($225)+bonus - Snake/Falcon/MK
2: Dojo ($112)+bonus - Meta
3: Bassem ($45)+bonus - Wario
4: Dphat ($22)+bonus - Meta
5: Ultimate Razer ($22) - Snake
5: Chuck Nasty ($22) - Meta(?)
7: Mr. Doom - Ike
7: DMG - Wario
9: UTD Zac - G7W
9: Fogo - DDD
9: Clel - Meta
9: Affinity - Meta

Doubles Results: http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3269/96123353.jpg
1: Sexy Sheep (Dojo & Razer) ($224.00)
2: Canadian Bacon (Zac & Ally) ($64.00)
3: NOTHING HAPPENED!!! (Dphat & DMG) ($32.00)

and then from GENESIS

Brawl Doubles - Total Entrants 108 Teams

1. Mew2King & Fiction - $1,444
2. Ally & Sean - $802
3. Dojo & UTD Zach - $481

Saying that UTD Zac doesn't know what he's doing is a hella big insult.


As for Mr. Doom. REALLY Good Ike over in this region. The fact that he keeps up with UTD Zac alone gives him validity.

 

[Linkshot]

DEDEDE
If you get grabbed at 0%, D3 can Pummel -> Buffered dThrow -> tipped dTilt.
If you miss the DI, this is a forced get up and D3 can regrab you, or throw a waddle at you.

IKE
When did I ever say SH fAir? SAUS (our Ike main) uses Advancing SH -> Retreating DJ -> fAir at the apex. Against characters that aren't stupidly short, this can both hit and autocancel.

 

[PKNintendo]

Haha your website is fantastic. I did note something odd though. The site doesn't mention Ness bair shield stun buff. Was that removed or a simple mistake. (doesn't really matter if it's gone tbh)

Edit: Your descriptions for the BBrawl bonuses are hilarious. Wario's especially.

Wario’s pummel now rewards him with a coin stolen from the foe. This makes Wario so happy he is inspired to escape grab release tricks and infinites.

Edit 2: OH! I see. It's not just Ness. The BBrawl tricks from page (305?) Have ALL been completely re-worked. Kudos!

 

[Nakihito]

I'm sorry, I don't really look at tourney results that often and when I do, its not so much looking for names as it is looking to see what characters placed where (I'm pretty bad at remembering names). I also never meant to imply that UTDZac was bad in general. I meant it didn't look like he knew the match up. If UTDZac is truly insulted by what I said, then I apologize.

However, it really doesn't change the fact that a good player can make a bad character seem better than they really are. Mr Doom is obviously very good, but his matches remind me of Ally who occasionally plays Falcon and beats other top level players (or at least gives them a good run until he switches back to Snake). That doesn't mean Falcon is better than we previously thought. Its just the combination of the opponent's lack of real match up experience at a high level and Ally's skill. Falcon is still bad in vBrawl. He's being played by a good player.

 

[Shadrio]

I must say I am very satisfied with BBrawl's characters being very balanced.

The only Character that still seems inferior (maybe I just don't know how to use her well, or she truely is inferior still) is Samus (w/ Suit). The Super Missiles are still weak and her Bair and Nair still feel too weak (all 3 in the sense of knockback).

Maybe this is just a problem with me, but has anyone else felt like this? I'm saying this because normally when I use a would-be KO attack on a Foe, like the Bair or Super Missle, the foe seems to survive, even on really high %s.

Other things I'd like to comment, and see what people think of them:

- Gale Boomerang, upon returning, causing 1% damage per (set time), similar to BBrawl's Ganondorf using his Utilt
- In Marth's Dancing Blade combo, the third hit tilted downward. Giving that attack's hitbox a spiking element, like how it was in Melee. Maybe this would make Marth too good, and therefor unbalanced? Idk, just an idea.
- I know this obviously came to mind when seeing what attacks Shiek should have improved, but I'll still make a mention/ask why it wasn't modified: Shiek's Fair. Maybe you guys saw that it would make her unbalanced to make it one of her KO moves, like how it was in Melee, and you perfered to keep it as a move that will be a part of her combos instead. I don't know why it wasn't modified, but to me it really feels like it should be a KO move. Just an opinion.
- Give Squirtle more Stamina, and maybe a bit more to Ivysaur. I almost always seem to have Squirtle tired by the time the Foe is in KO range, so this seems quite problamatic. Just an idea, since I'm the only Squirtle user I know >_>'
- Changing the angle of Snake's Utilt, because on heavier characters, I was once able to combo (starting on 0%) to about 40-50% with just the Utilt. I've repeated this quite a few times, but try not to do it, because it seems completely unfair.
- Delfino Island should progress at a lower speed (2/3rds or 3/4ths maybe?)
- Squirtle's Down Smash should have a bit less starting lag

Sorry for getting off topic, but I felt like I need to say this. Just continue with the current topic at hand, if this post does not interest you.

 

[PKNintendo]

I must say I am very satisfied with BBrawl's characters being very balanced.

The only Character that still seems inferior (maybe I just don't know how to use her well, or she truely is inferior still) is Samus (w/ Suit). The Super Missiles are still weak and her Bair and Nair still feel too weak (all 3 in the sense of knockback).

Maybe this is just a problem with me, but has anyone else felt like this? I'm saying this because normally when I use a would-be KO attack on a Foe, like the Bair or Super Missle, the foe seems to survive, even on really high %s.

Other things I'd like to comment, and see what people think of them:

- Gale Boomerang, upon returning, causing 1% damage per (set time), similar to BBrawl's Ganondorf using his Utilt
- In Marth's Dancing Blade combo, the third hit tilted downward. Giving that attack's hitbox a spiking element, like how it was in Melee. Maybe this would make Marth too good, and therefor unbalanced? Idk, just an idea.
- I know this obviously came to mind when seeing what attacks Shiek should have improved, but I'll still make a mention/ask why it wasn't modified: Shiek's Fair. Maybe you guys saw that it would make her unbalanced to make it one of her KO moves, like how it was in Melee, and you perfered to keep it as a move that will be a part of her combos instead. I don't know why it wasn't modified, but to me it really feels like it should be a KO move. Just an opinion.
- Give Squirtle more Stamina, and maybe a bit more to Ivysaur. I almost always seem to have Squirtle tired by the time the Foe is in KO range, so this seems quite problamatic. Just an idea, since I'm the only Squirtle user I know >_>'
- Changing the angle of Snake's Utilt, because on heavier characters, I was once able to combo (starting on 0%) to about 40-50% with just the Utilt. I've repeated this quite a few times, but try not to do it, because it seems completely unfair.
- Delfino Island should progress at a lower speed (2/3rds or 3/4ths maybe?)
- Squirtle's Down Smash should have a bit less starting lag

Sorry for getting off topic, but I felt like I need to say this. Just continue with the current topic at hand, if this post does not interest you.

I think that you are very late. No more changes... ever. Basic cleaning and tweaking (checking for new glitches, abuses and what not)

Anyyyyywho. All wolf mains search up his profile on the webstie. DO IT NOW.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There will be more actual design changes... in several months when the even further release comes along. It's too early to really think about it, but it's not like we're going to disappear forever or anything. We just believe in slow release periods so people can actually use what they find instead of having it counter-acted by nerfs immediately and whatnot.

I would point out that we have no desire to make things more like Melee. It's just not a part of our design. Sheik, for instance, has a great KO move in Brawl: transform to Zelda (also usmash if you're super pro). Making fair into a KO move just doesn't fit on Brawl Sheik.

I'm pretty sure Snake's utilt doesn't actually combo into itself...

Delfino Plaza is pretty great already! Why would we want to slow it down?

Etc. Too busy to say more right now, sorry to say.

 

[Mit]

I think that Mr Doom would be pretty happy with Ike in BBrawl. The recovery buff alone, and the fact that top tiers aren't as powerful would be a huge boost. He took Ally to one stock, he took Dojo to one stock (without MK gimps it would've been a closer set). Give him that extra time to live due to both characters not killing as early, and it'd be a great match to watch. Not to mention the extra tools from BBrawl that are hard to judge this early how much they'll help, but I'm sure autocanceled nairs, super armor neutral B, and invincible counter would all prove to be valuable tools to a player like Mr Doom, who makes clever use of Eruption and Counter, and I'm sure could find some great ways of utilizing autocanceled nair.

He still might be lower on the tier list for BBrawl, and for sure a character that requires a lot of skill still, but it shouldn't be nearly as hopeless for him anymore compared to vBrawl.

 

[Ussi]

You mean Sheiks fair is the same in vBrawl??! Gosh that fair is sooooo good at gimping at high %s. Even if it doesn't gimp easy switch to Zelda and punish with usmash.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, with Linkshot's help, we now have footage for most of a video, which was the main thing holding us back from release. Expect big news from us soon!

Also, he's within my region. I know Mr. Doom is, in fact, pretty happy with Bbrawl Ike.

Seconding suggestions to check out the site; it's mostly done!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*jumps on correcting Nakihito bandwagon*

1)Zac is the best G&W and lives in Texas: the state with the most high level Ikes. I am high doubtful he didn't know the MU, or that he hasn't played against Bored, Brett, A_B, ect. Heck, even playing against Slaps would have been enough to know the MU.

2)Mr.Doom is without a doubt one of the top five Ikes out there (despite what he thinks. According to him, he was having a bad day during that tournament and kept messing up, particularly against Ally)

3)It's not even that bad of a MU for Ike in the first place. 45-55 D. >_>

*goes back to lurking this topic*

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I must say I am very satisfied with BBrawl's characters being very balanced.

The only Character that still seems inferior (maybe I just don't know how to use her well, or she truely is inferior still) is Samus (w/ Suit). The Super Missiles are still weak and her Bair and Nair still feel too weak (all 3 in the sense of knockback).

Maybe this is just a problem with me, but has anyone else felt like this? I'm saying this because normally when I use a would-be KO attack on a Foe, like the Bair or Super Missle, the foe seems to survive, even on really high %s.

Other things I'd like to comment, and see what people think of them:

- Gale Boomerang, upon returning, causing 1% damage per (set time), similar to BBrawl's Ganondorf using his Utilt
- In Marth's Dancing Blade combo, the third hit tilted downward. Giving that attack's hitbox a spiking element, like how it was in Melee. Maybe this would make Marth too good, and therefor unbalanced? Idk, just an idea.
- I know this obviously came to mind when seeing what attacks Shiek should have improved, but I'll still make a mention/ask why it wasn't modified: Shiek's Fair. Maybe you guys saw that it would make her unbalanced to make it one of her KO moves, like how it was in Melee, and you perfered to keep it as a move that will be a part of her combos instead. I don't know why it wasn't modified, but to me it really feels like it should be a KO move. Just an opinion.
- Give Squirtle more Stamina, and maybe a bit more to Ivysaur. I almost always seem to have Squirtle tired by the time the Foe is in KO range, so this seems quite problamatic. Just an idea, since I'm the only Squirtle user I know >_>'
- Changing the angle of Snake's Utilt, because on heavier characters, I was once able to combo (starting on 0%) to about 40-50% with just the Utilt. I've repeated this quite a few times, but try not to do it, because it seems completely unfair.
- Delfino Island should progress at a lower speed (2/3rds or 3/4ths maybe?)
- Squirtle's Down Smash should have a bit less starting lag

Sorry for getting off topic, but I felt like I need to say this. Just continue with the current topic at hand, if this post does not interest you.

Imaletchoofinish... but no.

 

[MrEh]

As a whole, Bowser seems to be far more balanced. Bowser has always been one of those borderline-almost-low-tier characters. However, will most of the chaingrabs in the game removed, Bowser is a much stronger character and holds stock far better. Of course, even with the absence of chaingrabs, Bowser is still a flawed character. He's laggy, he's fat, he has little ways to deal with projectiles, or to handle characters that have large amounts of disjoint. This is fine though, since Bowser's power, survivability, and decent range help keep that somewhat in check. Every character is meant to have weaknesses.

The general changes made to Bowser work fairly well. Excluding universal changes like the removal of chaingrabs, all Bowser needed was small tweaks to make him a bit more competitive. The minor damage buffs to his moves work pretty well at helping Bowser get his opponent into kill range, which was always a problem before, since Bowser generally takes craploads of damage in order to even land a few hits. (He's huge. Everyone loves hitting Bowser.) The removal of grab releases obviously ruins Bowser's grab release game, and that's a problem with Bowser now. Bowser has a slow 9 frame grab and poor throws in general. While his throws do decent damage, they do little for positioning or killing. Bowser's grab release game gave him much higher damage output (30 damage per grab) and kill options out of a grab release. However, with these gone, Bowser's throws need some sort of buff to compensate. Bowser's forward, back, and up throws have been buffed in damage, which is fine, but the changes to the Dthrow irk me somewhat. Dthrow was the only throw that Bowser used to set up for anything. It did the most (12%) and sent your opponent nowhere, which allowed Bowser to follow up accordingly. Nothing was guaranteed from it, but it was usually always Bowser's most useful non-grab release options. In my opinion, Bowser's Dthrow doesn't need to knock the opponent down. While this is an interesting change, and certainly gives Bowser the option to chase, the original Dthrow served the same purpose. The only buff I think the Dthrow needs is more damage. Made it do something like 15% or 16%. While this seems like an outrageous number, remember that Bowser used to do 30%+ from a grab release. Sometimes, with good timing and reactions, a Bowser could do more then 50% from a grab release. 15% or 16% doesn't sound so absurd anymore. Bowser isn't Dedede; his grab is slow and has mediocre range. Plus, Bowser can't followup with his kill moves from a grab either, so I believe that the 16% Dthrow is justified.

Also, Bowser's pummel should have the fire element. Just for visual effect of course, because it looks amazing.


The major problem with Bowser though, is his Fsmash. The drawback on Bowser's Fsmash screws up spacing tremendously. It's always been used as an anti-spacing tool. Is Marth spacing aerials or his Fsmash? Bowser's Fsmash will win. Is Snake spacing his Ftilt? Bowser's Fsmash will win. The drawback on that Fsmash has always been ridiculous, and it was always abused in regular Brawl. The reason why this was abused so easily is because Bowser's moveset encourages spacing. His UpB OoS absolutely destroys every attack that isn't spaced, and his Ftilt challenges most moves well with it's range. This forces many characters to space against Bowser, and well spaced moves are exactly what Bowser's Fsmash destroys. Again, this was not a problem in regular Brawl, since good use of Fsmash required prediction and was a fairly high risk move. However, due to the super armor added to move, it became utterly outrageous. Bowser's Fsmash now not only punishes spaced moves, but it beats them outright as well. It's not specific to just spaced moves anymore, if you predict your opponent is going to attack you, you can just swing Bowser's head and it'll plow right through them. Having more knockback on his Fsmash is already an amazing buff as it is. Having super armor just makes it broken.

 

[Ussi]

Believe me, Bowser's fsmash is workable around.. cause its punishable on block. The risk/reward ratio is awesome on the move though.. It also makes Bowser's fsmash the most feared smash now.

 

[Thinkaman]

Attention Walmart shoppers: I will be glad to record and upload any BBrawl replays from now on, at any time. Please feed the Replay Monster. That will be all.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just going to remind the crowd of how many amazing moves are already in the game and basically not changed in their overall dynamics:

Meta Knight forward tilt, pretty much safe on block, huge mix-up options, big damage by itself, ridiculously low start-up
Meta Knight down aerial, pretty much the perfect gimp move, totally safe on block if used right, controls huge amounts of space, extremely fast in every way a move can be fast, gives good positional advantage on hit in almost literally every circumstance
Snake forward tilt, like Meta Knight's but does way more damage, can combo into it from jab
Mr. Game & Watch up special, basically unpunishable, has invincibility, seemingly infinite priority, escapes basically all bad situations, sets up chases, one of the fastest mobility options in the entire game
Marth Dancing Blade, does insane damage, huge mix-up options, great shield pressure
Marth Dolphin Slash, frame 1 invincible, huge range, kill potential, can be done straight OoS
Diddy Kong banana peels, combos into literally his entire moveset, can be thrown straight OoS, amazing zoning, really almost literally infinite possibilities
Ice Climbers Blizzard, seemingly infinite priority, great spatial control, can be done desynched to make into a combo move into literally their entire moveset
Falco lasers, insane spatial control, can put hitboxes super fast basically wherever Falco wants them that's not below the stage or behind an object
Pikachu Quick Attack, basically ungimpable recovery, completely safe on-stage, when used correctly is essentially a super fast and completely lagless half stage teleport

I just think of all that, and it's hard for me to see giving Bowser a move that's actually pretty awesome as unfair. Reeling back to avoid certain types of spaced attacks is a nice attribute, but we're still talking about one of the slowest smashes in the game. Then you look at what the good characters already have when they talk about good moves, and Bowser feels left out to me. It's the idea behind many of the powerful changes; we're not accepting a permanent class of mediocre characters, and we're not accepting how you can kinda look at the plethora of extremely good things someone like Meta Knight has and then only say when looking at someone like Bowser and his plus sides "I guess these characters just have different scales of good". That's not balance. We're also generally balancing near the top so the goal here isn't to make Bowser go from low tier or lower-mid tier depending on your point of view to middle tier. He, along with everyone else, is shooting for high tier!

Also, to clarify, the reelback is still quite relevant. The super armor starts after charge release which is actually pretty late in the overall move, when Bowser starts lunging forward again. So you can use the reelback to avoid attacks much faster than super armor would let you tank them, and you get the added benefit of not taking damage to go along with it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Random:
IIRC, Samus' weight was changed to heavy... Does that change still there, or it was removed? (BBrawl.net doesn't mention it).

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Samus has always been a heavyweight....
Not to mention, the fact that they keep saying they wont change weight might key you off to the fact that they never changed Samus' weight to begin with.

 

[GHNeko]

I think you should update the second post in page one. LOL.

 

[MrEh]

I just think of all that, and it's hard for me to see giving Bowser a move that's actually pretty awesome as unfair.

There's nothing wrong with having amazing moves. One of the problems is that Bowser already had an outrageous move. Bowser's Fortress was amazing. Frame 1 invincibility, big hitbox all around him, good damage, kill potential, and is one of the best OoS options in the game. All this, and it actually got buffed in damage. (not really a problem, since it helps compensate for Bowser's poor damage output)

The problem with the super armor on the Fsmash is that it gives Bowser too many opportunities to whip out his head and destroy things. As repeated a couple times, Bowser's Fsmash drawback can be abused to hit spaced moves. Again, I believe this move was already amazing in normal Brawl for this very purpose. (not mediocre like many people think)

The single buff to Bowser that I liked the most was the knockback increase to the Fsmash. This was perfectly acceptable to me, because the usage of the move would remain exactly the same. There would still be a large risk to using the move, but the payoff would now be even more rewarding. However, even having Super Armor only on the release of the Fsmash, it is still a dramatic change. Being able to beat out Marth's dancing Blade or Snake's Ftilt with a poorly spaced Fsmash just shouldn't happen. The Super Armor just lets him plow through things too easily. The risk factor in using the Fsmash is decreased and has an even greater reward due to the increased knockback. For a move that was already amazing, this is just too much.

It's the idea behind many of the powerful changes; we're not accepting a permanent class of mediocre characters, and we're not accepting how you can kinda look at the plethora of extremely good things someone like Meta Knight has and then only say when looking at someone like Bowser and his plus sides "I guess these characters just have different scales of good". That's not balance. We're also generally balancing near the top so the goal here isn't to make Bowser go from low tier or lower-mid tier depending on your point of view to middle tier. He, along with everyone else, is shooting for high tier!

I never said that I thought Bowser was mediocre. With the removal of chaingrabs and other related shenanigans, Bowser became a decent character already. Combined with the damage buffs that were given to him, I actually think that Bowser is a flat out good character. I just think the Fsmash super armor is just unnecessary.

This is just my two cents. Bowser is the character I understand the most in Brawl, and I believe that the Super Armor is the only glaring problem with him. It seems like I'm talking a lot about a harmless and welcomed change, but I wouldn't be complaining so much if I wasn't completely sure that it's the wrong way to go. I'm not a master of theorycraft, I'm just a guy who plays a lot and deeply understands his character. My recommendation is either...

1. Remove the super armor entirely. Players will have to rely completely on the drawback of the Fsmash and their own predictions in order to land it. Due to the increased knockback on the move, this is a high risk, but extremely high reward move. I strongly believe that this is what should be done.

2. Reduce the amount of Super Armor the move has. Give Bowser's Fsmash the 7% Super Armor that Snake gets from his Cypher, or what Yoshi gets from his Egg Roll. This will prevent the Super Armor from being overwhelming, and it will only plow through weak attacks. Since you seem adamant about keeping the super armor in, I believe that this is a fair balance between having it and not.

I hope that the team seriously considers what I'm saying. (Other then that, I was perfectly happy with Balanced Brawl. Keep up the good work.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Nom nom nom, thanks for replays, recording now. Keep it up!

Random:
IIRC, Samus' weight was changed to heavy... Does that change still there, or it was removed? (BBrawl.net doesn't mention it).

We don't do weight changes, nor changes to any other attribute. Samus is as heavy as ever. (And as floaty as ever...)

I think you should update the second post in page one. LOL.

A huge update in incoming really soon. I mean, we *are* closing in on the second official release.

 

[Steeler]

there are valid points on both sides of the ike debate but i think at this point we should just move forward with the changes we have right now and see how it works out.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I absolutely agree with MrEh's assessment. Unfortunately it's nearing the second official release; I do hope they go with a quick transition into making Bowser's fsmash heavy armor like Snake's cypher, as it's a bit less ridiculous, but I wont hold my breath.

Edit: While I was in the shower, I realized Heavy Armor is the way to go for an additional reason; It completely fixes the Counter vs Fsmash interaction. Counter does something like x2 damage? Setting even a high Heavy Armor wont stop the x2 damage of the countered Fsmash, probably even if they are both staled out. I really like the idea D:

I will also be up this monday for lots of bbrawl. If you guys want to play me then, be in the chat on the BBrawl site <3

 

[Ussi]

.. I haven't had problems with bowser's fsmash... with both Pikachu and Ike Who are on a opposite spectrum on range and speed. Sure it can get me at times, but usually i can either out space it, or punish it OoS with a grab. Also if your character lacks range, you can run into Bowser and his strong part will over shoot you while his weak hit will maybe smack you away for little damage