Balanced Yoshi

[auroreon]

*Sorry for the horribly boring and un-original thread title, I couldn't think of anything good. But if you have any suggestions feel free to let me know.*


Encase there is anyone who hasn't figured out what this is, this is a thread for the discussion and development of Yoshi in the Balanced Brawl project.

For those of you who are unaware of what Balanced Brawl is... go and read the thread.
But bassically the project is similar to the Brawl+ in that it aims to fix the problem of balance in the base Brawl game through the use of codes. Designed by Amazing Ampharos and Thinkaman, the project vows to bring greater balance to the characters with the overall goal of making every character in the game viable for serious competetive play (but heres the key point), WITHOUT changing the way the game is played in any noticable way.
Unlike Brawl+, Balanced Brawl sticks to its principles to retain the standard Brawl game as much as possible whilst bringing more balance to the roster, allowing for players to go from the standard game to Balance Brawl without any problems of adaptation.

Ok, so now that even the most unimformed are aware of what Balanced Brawl is, I will move on to the purpose of this thread.
Bassically, this thread is to act like the character discussions for Brawl+.

As the first (I think) character discussion thread for a character in Balanced Brawl, I hope other character mains follow this example and make a thread to discuss their character in Balanced Brawl.
Trying to keep track of all the feedback for every character, every stage and every change in the balanced Brawl thread in-between the spam and other posts is probably not an effecient way to gather feedback on the changes in Balanced Brawl. So in this thread I am aiming to gather all the feedback from players testing Yoshi in Balanced Brawl to provide a place for the developers of Balanced Brawl to get feedback on the changes to Yoshi and how it effects his playstyle and balance is comparrison to the other characters.
That way the developers don't have to trawl through the massive number of posts in the Balanced Brawl official thread to get feedback on an individual character and get an idea of how the community feels about the changes to Yoshi in Balanced Brawl.

Changes to Yoshi

GAME CHANGER: Lower hitbox on fair now grounds opponents

Wait, what? The part of Yoshi's fair that spikes opponents will now pound them into the ground if they are not in the air, just like Donkey Kong's side special. It's not the easiest thing for Yoshi to do, but getting to land behind them and swing around with a forward smash makes it all worth it. Yoshi has a few small changes too:

-Slightly more damage on down smash (15%) -> (16%)
-More knockback on down smash (63/30) -> (72/37) % (56/30) -> (68/37)
-More damage on all tilts and pummel (+1% to all)
-More damage on dash attack (9%) -> (11%)
-No helpless fall state out of Egg Roll; it instead refreshes his double jump
-More damage on down-B stars (4%) -> (7%)
-Slightly more knockback on down-B stars (40/50) -> (40/56)

Yoshi's competent but lackluster ground game has been bumped up to par with the rest of the cast. The changes to Egg Roll should greatly enhance his survivability; Egg Roll has the same momentum canceling properties as Mr. Game & Watch's bucket after all.

I will update later when I have time with my oppinions on the changes and a tonne of other stuff...

In the meantime, heres what I need from you:​

• Your feedback on the changes to Yoshi​
• Your suggestions for changes to Yoshi​
• Tips on how to take advantage of Yoshis changes​
• A better thread title​
• A Yoshi-related picture to put at the top of the thread​
• Videos of Yoshi in Balanced Brawl​

 

[timothyung]

Seriously we need a separate board for BBrawl character discussions... I mean this board was made for B+ characters at first, and was meant to separate the discussions from vBrawl's. And putting character discussion threads from different projects in the same board is stupid. I am not saying that you can't discuss, but it will be a mess if both BBrawl and B+ character threads are posted here. You might consider starting the discussion in the vBrawl Yoshi board, seeing that only a few changes has been made to the characters in BBrawl, like what the Ness board do. Maybe later we'll have a separate board for BBrawl, but for now posting the in the vBrawl character boards seems to be a better choice.

 

[auroreon]

The board is titled "Smash Workshop: Character Discussion", not "Brawl+ Character Discussion". IT nowhere states that the board is solely for the disucssion of characters in Brawl+.
The purpose of this thread is different from the vBrawl character discussion boards as they are for the discussion of how the character plays, whereas this thread is to provide input on how best to make Yoshi fit as a balanced character.

 

[Revven]

The board was specifically made with Brawl+ in mind. Yoshi has not changed much in BBrawl at all to warrant a new thread in this forum, take it to the character discussion boards already made for regular Brawl, you'll get way more responses and way more interest than here as well. (Especially considering most people know this particular forum is for character threads for Brawl+, not for BBrawl).

You could argue Yoshi has changed a lot but, that isn't the case, take it to the Yoshi boards for regular Brawl. Or take it to the main BBrawl thread so Thinkaman and AA don't have to search for input...

 

[Kuga]

The board was specifically made with Brawl+ in mind. Yoshi has not changed much in BBrawl at all to warrant a new thread in this forum, take it to the character discussion boards already made for regular Brawl, you'll get way more responses and way more interest than here as well. (Especially considering most people know this particular forum is for character threads for Brawl+, not for BBrawl).

You could argue Yoshi has changed a lot but, that isn't the case, take it to the Yoshi boards for regular Brawl. Or take it to the main BBrawl thread so Thinkaman and AA don't have to search for input...

This .

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I haven't played BBRawl but this topic caught my eye. If Egg Roll doesn't leave you helpless and refreshes your double jump don't you have an infinite recovery? It sounds like Ganon/Falcon Kick in Melee except Yoshi would gain more height from his jump than he loses from the egg roll. Or is egg roll's cooldown THAT bad?

 

[auroreon]

No, the cooldown on the EggRoll really is that bad, worse even.
And I would gladly have this moved to the Yoshi board if people think that would be more appropriate.

 

[VietGeek]

Request Almas to move it there.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I guess I never noticed cause Egg Roll in the air is death. =P

 

[Youko]

Moved to Brawl Yoshi forum.

 

[Metatitan]

The makers of BB really had no idea what they were doing when they upgraded yoshi's attacks. The egg roll thing is amazing and all but thats probably where it stops. Fair will always suck, they just made a sucky move have a weird and stupid side effect. He needs a consistent, powerful finisher and more damage on his grabs (or at least a really fast pummel that does 3%). But why make a thread like this? BB will die down just as brawl+ did. Especially now that nintendo is really out to stop homebrew installations. I will give BB this- it isn't as stupid as brawl+. Brawl+ isn't close to brawl, and it is supposed to be a better version of BRAWL (not a worse version of melee) after all right?

 

[Naucitos]

Brawl+ is its own game, it just happens to be run on t he same thing, regardless, i've been talking to AA about yoshi, he DOES need more damage on his grabs, the character is very based on his grabs, i'm trying to think of a way to give him followups on them other than grabs, i can 'tthink of much aside from maybe more hitstun on bthrow so it can lead into hopefully upsmash, Possiblya regrab at lower percents like on diddy

 

[Zodac]

brawl+ is brawl with a few combo and better balance and it's growing not dieing, as for yoshi the changes seem good except his side B, his recovery was already good and will change yoshi too much.

 

[Delta-cod]

Maybe make one of the grabs a reliable killer, but make it so it's not incredibly strong/broken. I'm not sure on when Squirtle or Oli's throws will kill, exactly, but I know Ness's kills at around the 110-120 range. I don't think it should be stronger than that, personally, but I dunno. Just an idea.

Edit: Zodac, I could combo someone with my feet in Brawl+. And the Egg roll improvement will only help his survivability, which I believe is a nice balance considering he won't have an OoS game.

 

[Naucitos]

A ness like throw would be retardedly overpowered, i'm ok with our throws being able to possibly kill at 200 or so if the opponent dis bad, as long as they have followups and/or do decent damage

 

[~Firefly~]

An Uthrow with modest killing potential would be a nice touch, as that move sees very little use as it is. However, it won't happen for a while, as they can't change throws very well at the moment. V.V

They were discussing making Down B KO earlier, which would've been great; an early KO move would work wonders to make Yoshi a little more even with the rest of the cast. One of the playtesters seems to think the buffed survivability makes Yoshi broken though, which I highly doubt. Living longer alone won't put us up there with the high tiers.

 

[Shiri]

I am just posting to LOL @ how auroreon got marauded by the B+ kids. :D

 

[Delta-cod]

Poor Auro. Though I found it a bit funny too. XD

I do think a throw with kill potential would be what Yoshi needs so he has a reliable finisher. Making Down B or Fsmash KO earlier is nice and all, but they still have bad range and they're both still slow. Since Yoshi is quite the grabby character, a killing throw would be nice. A pummel buff would be awesome.

 

[Shiri]

Well, I mean...

I see where you guys are going. In terms of damage, Yoshi does need more of it in the right places. However, I have to respectfully disagree with the idea of a KO throw. I'll try not to get into detail in this particular post, but there are a lot of aspects about having a good grab game in general that are very good, much less having a KO throw to go with that.

Let's look at Yoshi. He has the second best grab schema in the game, just behind King Dedede. In terms of range, speed, and usefulness, he is definitely #2. Grabs are unblockable (they must be avoided or spotdodged), they absorb hits on simultaneous attacking frames (very "rare", but still abusable), are guaranteed on enemy landing (characters suffer 4 frames of uncancellable lag upon landing on the ground), and allow for at least one pummel of guaranteed damage (you may not think this is significant, but the notion of guaranteed damage truly is powerful, regardless of how small that damage may be). Now, combine all these into one package and stamp it with a seal called "KO Throw" and you've got the makings of something slightly OP.

I'll be honest with you guys; I want Yoshi to be amazing as much as the next guy. Some of the Melee Yoshis will even remember me saying before the game came out that I wanted him tournament banned because of how broken I wanted him to be. However, it is in Yoshi's nature to have some sense of "balance." You may ask, "Meta Knight is still legal and you want to see balance?" That's a perfectly legitimate question and I agree that a character like Yoshi having something as OP as a KO throw wouldn't break him or the game. However, it goes against both the character and my views regarding game design and theory to voluntarily give Yoshi something as OP as a KO throw. I just can't do it. I want to. Please believe me I do. It's just not right.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yoshi having a KO throw isn't going to happen. This is Yoshi, not Ness.

The defining characteristic of Yoshi is "fortitude". In all current builds of BBrawl, Yoshi has the highest survivability in the game! He lives to 200%, does decent damage consistently, and keeps opponent scared of his easily accessible KO potential.

And seriously, the fair buff is nice. Fair -> dair, or fair -> f-smash, is an appropriate reward for how difficult it is to land a fair. Group testers really like it, since it gives Yoshi a high-risk aerial alternative to mix with nairs and bairs.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not quite sure I see what him not being Ness has to do with the throw. Squirtle has a kill throw. Lucario does as well. Olimar has three!

I'm not trying to say his throw should kill as well as Ness's. Yoshi would most certainly be broken if he had a throw that could kill from 100-120%, especially with his grab range and speed. I'm more inclined to having a throw kill at like, those extreme percentages, for when you just can't land the kill move, which is indeed very hard depending on the character. the Fair buff is nice, and it can lead to a kill. It's still a high risk move though, as are the majority of Yoshi's other kill options. That's just the way I feel.

Fair -> Dair would be awesome if Dair did the **** damage it used to.

 

[Chaco]

I'm gonna say only one more time. I hate the fair. That's my last insult to the fair.

Who were the group testers? And what did Bwett say about it?

 

[Thinkaman]

Bwett didn't provide direct feedback sadly; Zac was understandably busy and I only got first impressions. I'd love to get more feedback from Texas after Genesis wraps up, of course.

Our group tests have mainly been run in Kansas City, Kirksville, St. Louis, and Wichita. The resident Yoshi main is JGALT, who I have the pleasure of playing quite often.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just popping in to let you know that Yoshi's tilts are tweaked in the new Genesis edition to be "knockback compensated". That is, while they still do more damage, they chain just as effectively as they did in standard Brawl.

 

[TreK]

Oh, that's cool

Will genesis changes be included in the PAL version when it comes out ?

 

[Naucitos]

I think its pretty safe to assume that the pal version will be the most up to date version at the time

 

[Mr.-0]

*Sniff, Sniff* But this was my idea! *sobs* I came to almas to ask him if I could make the first one of these and put it in the smash workshop character discussion thread *whales* i had the idea first!!!

On a serious note, he said that if the project became popular enough he would bring it up with people that had the power to allow these threads to be put into the smash workshop character discussion forum, so it might (just might) be moved back. And yes, I had the idea first pouts.


Remember, i'm 12 XD

I should make one of these for Snake and MK... And didn't I say all of this in the BBrawl official thread already? Weird... deja vu.

 

[auroreon]

Great job with the Genesis update, its really great to see that you guys are so dedicated to this project. Heres hoping this is successful, as it definatly deserves to be. Nice that you fixed the knockback to compensate for the extra damage.
I'll update the first post and add my own observations in a a bit.

As overly-optemistic as it sounds, I really do think that provided we get some way of launching Gecko OS on an untouched Wii, this should eventually become tournament standard over time.
There wouldn't be any legitimate reason why it shouldn't, it is simply just a superior version of Braw, TOs can just use their SD to load the game up on all the Wiis.
Oh and many many people have had this idea and I'm sure most people have thought of it after Brawl+. I'd been hoping for this since we had the ability to do it.

 

[Mmac]

I'm surprised that they didn't touch his U/D-Throws. They need a Damage Buff to at least equalize in damage with his F/B-Throws. Unless something changed in the past year that I missed, U-Throw is completely pointless, and D-Throw, while it can setup well, is the weakest of the throws (Which makes little sense because he launches his opponent to the ground at mach speed!). I would like to see them used a bit more.

I would also like to see some changes to his Egg Lay. The Most Obvious Point is that it's intended use is completely useless in Regular Brawl because of how quickly opponents can break out. Simply Put, make it take twice the effort to break out, or maybe more.

But what I really want to see is to be able to actually use the Egg Lay Cancel as a regular use, instead of a pixel perfect grab every Blue Moon. I'm not sure how, but my guess is to decrease the maximum distance Yoshi needs to Swallow with Egg Lay.

I'm also quite disappointed that Yoshi lost all of his CG's and Setups from Grab Release in BBrawl, Though it seems like he already lost a few the past Year...


I am liking BBrawl alot. It's the version I always wanted. Just simply a more balanced Brawl, not an heavily edited version to try and make it close to Melee.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm surprised that they didn't touch his U/D-Throws. They need a Damage Buff to at least equalize in damage with his F/B-Throws. Unless something changed in the past year that I missed, U-Throw is completely pointless, and D-Throw, while it can setup well, is the weakest of the throws (Which makes little sense because he launches his opponent to the ground at mach speed!). I would like to see them used a bit more.

I would also like to see some changes to his Egg Lay. The Most Obvious Point is that it's intended use is completely useless in Regular Brawl because of how quickly opponents can break out. Simply Put, make it take twice the effort to break out, or maybe more.

But what I really want to see is to be able to actually use the Egg Lay Cancel as a regular use, instead of a pixel perfect grab every Blue Moon. I'm not sure how, but my guess is to decrease the maximum distance Yoshi needs to Swallow with Egg Lay.

I'm also quite disappointed that Yoshi lost all of his CG's and Setups from Grab Release in BBrawl, Though it seems like he already lost a few the past Year...


I am liking BBrawl alot. It's the version I always wanted. Just simply a more balanced Brawl, not an heavily edited version to try and make it close to Melee.

Before we had no ability to modify throws without hitboxes. To my knowledge, none of Yoshi's throws have hitboxes so they were just not possible to edit. We're looking into buffing them up a bit now that we have the ability; we understand that Yoshi players like their grabs and should be rewarded appropriately for them (the buff to his pummel was an attempt to compensate!).

Maybe the new throw modifier will let us change some value on Egg Lay to do that; I'm not sure and not optimistic. It's something we wanted to do from the beginning, but it's one of those things that's likely just impossible to do.

Yoshi losing his grab release stuff was important to remove the an infinite on Wario (after rebalancing everything, something like this really has no place in the game) and abuse of stages with walls and walk-offs (both styles of stages are stages we want to pursue for legality, and I think we've been pretty successful). I think Yoshi (and Bowser for that matter) got fair compensation anyway.

Before we pursue the throws on Yoshi though, to all of you, how good is Yoshi feeling now that you've had more time with him? We don't want to overbuff him since the goal is "balance" and not "make previous low tiers broken", but we are serious about Yoshi being legitimately good, as in legitimately good where you could argue he's as good as anyone else. Any specific matchups that Yoshi is showing a strong deviation from neutral in, either in or against his favor? These are the sort of things that are most helpful in helping us make Yoshi the best he can be.

 

[Chaco]

I'll try to get more info for you, AA. Just been busy, lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm digging the changes. The ground-pound forward air seems very situational, but I've landed it a couple of times and it spelled AWESOME MOMENT when I did.

I had to wipe a tear from my eye when I got my first kill with a down smash again.

I missed you, little guy. *Sniff*

 

[auroreon]

The throw mod sounds like just what bBrawl needed.
You mentioned it would be possible to give EggLay more damage, that would be so amazing. EggLay is a really important move for Yoshi that works well but has always been limited in its usefullness, the buff in damage would be just what it needs.
I assume it wouldn't be possible to increase the break-out time for the egg, or remove the invincibity frames on break-out?

As you said yourself, Yoshi is very reliant on his grabs so the loss of grab-release options is a shame, but if you can buff up Yoshi grabs suitably that would deffinatly compensate.

My experience with Yoshi in bBrawl is limited to few characters currently, is there anywhere I can go to play with others on bBrawl?

 

[TreK]

You can play it with me if you want to :V

 

[Thinkaman]

Yoshi is currently planned to get damage buffs on u-throw, d-throw, and Egg Lay. As in, that's what changes are included in the files we are interally testing right now.

Warning: Kirby gets better Egg Lay too!

 

[Chaco]

Price to pay.

 

[~Firefly~]

Kirby typically doesn't want Egg Lay anyway. Inhale is just an overall better move for them, so they'd likely just spit us out, damage buff or no.

 

[TreK]

The thing is, inhale is buffed too =/

 

[auroreon]

I don't care if Kirby gets buffed inhale... as long I can still escape Kirbycide easily.
Kirbys just won't take EggLay because Kirby can't use it like Yoshi can, no DJCing it and Kirby doesn't have the horizontal air speed. A Kirby is better off just not having it and keeping inhale...
Im happy just so long as Kirbys Fsmash doesn't get anymore cheap than it already is =P

 

[Thinkaman]

I would be interested in knowing how different Yoshi mains use his throws. How often do you use each? When? How much would different amounts of extra damage change that?