Balancing Jigglypuff

[Thinkaman]

Link to original post: [drupal=696]Balancing Jigglypuff[/drupal]



Jigglypuff seeks to use superior air movement and attacks to establish chains of aerial hits, possibly gimping.

Jigglypuff has trouble against characters whom outprioritize her or have consistent vertical KO power. A non-fatal Rest can be strongly punished by some characters.
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+Sing worthless.
+D-Smash, d-tilt poor options.
+Down-B useful only as finisher.

- Remove u-throw knockback growth.
- Reduce uair knockback growth

+ Increase knockback on D-Smash.
+ Increase damage, trip chance on d-tilt and dair.
+ Increase duration of flower from Down-B.
+ Sing inflicts poison flower.
+ Drastically increase u-throw hitstun.
+ Increase d-throw damage.

Confession one: Okay, so I'm a Jiggs main.

Confession two: Okay, so I just gave Jiggs u-throw to rest.

Is there a problem with that? It's my party and I'll u-throw to rest if I want to.

The new Jiggs looks and plays like the default Jiggs, with a couple of her worst moves a bit better. That u-throw to rest is nifty, but between canceled throws and DI, it's not very practical to be honest. (Also, as long as I'm making up the rules here, I'll make it work on the entire cast except for probably Samus, Peach, and Jigglypuff.) Her damage potential is better, which could mean terrible things for people who find themselves wandering into sweet-spotted fairs. Overall, about the degree of changes you'd expect to catapult Jiggs up to the level of everyone else, even if Sing is still useless.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Things you should add.

Fix the rest to make it go diagnol instead of upwards.

Reduce knockback on U tilt.

Reduce start up lag on F smash.

Give B air more priority

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't understand what you are going for with these changes... Making Rest go diagonal would be TERRIBLE; it would fail to kill at even lower percents, and would sometimes kill off the side. (The best thing about Brawl rest is that it always kills off the top!)

U-tilt knockback would have to be reduced substantially to have any meaningful combo potential... u-throw -> rest is a neat trick, but I don't see a broader need to turn Brawl Jigglypuff into Melee Jigglypuff.

Her F-smash is already appropriate; she's a 99% aerial character, and should not have very good smashes.

If you read the introductory posts to this blog, I explain why I don't want to change hitbox size. You would have to relearn spacing every time you switched versions of the game, and I don't even know if it would be possible.

Jigglypuff is not really a flawed character as is; her problem is that her aerial game, strong as it is, is not strong enough to overcome her light-weight. I didn't want to change her weight because that's what makes her Jigglypuff, and I didn't want to increase her knockback because that would screw up some of her WoP potential as well as throw a monkey wrench into the art of knowing rest KO percentages. Increasing damage potential on Jigglypuff's primary damage building moves is the most logical choice.

 

[Keblerelf]

so...how is it good that brawl rest kills off the top?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Melee's Jigglypuff rest kills diagonally.

 

[Thinkaman]

Have you ever killed with a rest in Melee, then right as you wake up, gotten a knee to the face?

Yeah, that doesn't happen if you kill them off the top.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Have you ever killed with a rest in Melee, then right as you wake up, gotten a knee to the face?

Yeah, that doesn't happen if you kill them off the top.

In melee you could kill at 0%, in brawl you can rest at 100% and snake can Di it and kill you. Your dumb if you think Brawl's rest is better than melee's rest.

At least in melee if you hit with rest you get a kill, you don't even get that with a rest in brawl. You just rest and you end up getting hit.

 

[Sean²]

Ever since Pikachu stole her green headband, she's been too depressed to fight. It still looks like she's making an effort, but deep down, her spirit has been crushed. Therefore, I believe if we formulate an elaborate plan to take back what's rightfully hers, we'll have our Jiggernaut again.

 

[Keblerelf]

Have you ever killed with a rest in Melee, then right as you wake up, gotten a knee to the face?

Yeah, that doesn't happen if you kill them off the top.

uh no actually. I haven't.

If you didn't know, Melee rest sends your opponent REALLY FAR AWAY.


You see, by having rest kill sideways, they have to spend time coming back to you. Most of the time they are sent off of the stage and will have to get back on. That takes a lot of time. By the time they get back on, you are probably awake again. If by some reason they do make it back faster, they still have to run back to hit you. You're only sleeping for like 3 seconds, which may seen really long to you, but is really short to your opponent that just got sent flying across the map.

If you kill the guy and then get kneed to the face...then o well? You still took a stock off of him either way. If he does end up revenge killing you, at least you got one off of him. However, the fact that you can kill some people at 0% in some stages over weigh this little drawback.


ON THE OTHER HAND


In brawl if you kill vertically, you only have to FF down to get back to puff. That's a lot faster than going to the opposite side of the stage. Plus, I don't think it has that much knockback compared to Melee's so you have to get your opponent at higher percents to kill.

 

[Thinkaman]

In melee you could kill at 0%, in brawl you can rest at 100% and snake can Di it and kill you. Your dumb if you think Brawl's rest is better than melee's rest.

Did I say it was? Of course Melee's rest is better, I am saying that Brawl's is better in only one way; why on earth would you take away the only advantage it has?

At least in melee if you hit with rest you get a kill, you don't even get that with a rest in brawl. You just rest and you end up getting hit.

If you rest, and it doesn't KO, WHY DID YOU USE REST?!? Part of being a Jiggs main in Brawl is having rest KO percentages memorized, and being able to estimate on the fly what amount of damage is needed to ensure a KO on certain characters on certain stages.

Do you think I made that thread of several categories of vertical statistics and rankings because I just wanted an excuse to used colored font?

uh no actually. I haven't.
If you didn't know, Melee rest sends your opponent REALLY FAR AWAY.

Right. And it KO's them horizontally. So they respawn and kill you in one hit. Oh, sure, Peach doesn't. But Fox and Falcon sure do, and certainly other Jigglypuffs.

However, the fact that you can kill some people at 0% in some stages over weigh this little drawback.

Plus, I don't think it has that much knockback compared to Melee's so you have to get your opponent at higher percents to kill.

Stop comparing Melee Jigglypuff to Brawl Jigglypuff. It isn't March anymore, in fact, we're in the middle of October. In Melee, Rest was a KO ace of spaces you pulled out every chance you got. In Brawl, it is a decisive stock finisher. Can we finally accept this and move on?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Thats why were saying to buff Jigglypuff we should change Brawls rest to melee's rest.

 

[Rambo Hayabusa]

Only the Rambo-Puff would have instant KO.

 

[Minwu]

Thats why were saying to buff Jigglypuff we should change Brawls rest to melee's rest.

He's saying that changing the trajectory of the attack would be a step back in buffing Jigglypuff, when what Melee rest has over Brawl rest is knockback, not trajectory at all. You only suggested to change the trajectory.

 

[misterbee180]

JigglyMaster!!! You are a noob if you think that melee rest is better than brawl rest. Unless you are mango in disguise you have no clue how to rest in melee and are probably just hanging onto the "i love melee hype" to look like you have a clue about what you're talking about. For people like you brawl rest is 1000x better than melee rest and the fact that it kills of the top is the only sort of love you will get from brawl. Be happy that you dont need to worry about a knee to the face after your opponent respawns because if it was horizontal sending in brawl it would suck ballz, and that's all you'd get.

 

[Sean²]

JigglyMaster!!! You are a noob if you think that melee rest is better than brawl rest. Unless you are mango in disguise you have no clue how to rest in melee and are probably just hanging onto the "i love melee hype" to look like you have a clue about what you're talking about. For people like you brawl rest is 1000x better than melee rest and the fact that it kills of the top is the only sort of love you will get from brawl. Be happy that you dont need to worry about a knee to the face after your opponent respawns because if it was horizontal sending in brawl it would suck ballz, and that's all you'd get.

You're kidding. Just go ahead and say it.

Rest killed most characters at 30% in Melee...In Brawl you won't even get close to a kill from it till like 120.

(And even if it did kill horizontally in Brawl I wouldn't be too worried about a knee to the face anyways)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

JigglyMaster!!! You are a noob if you think that melee rest is better than brawl rest. Unless you are mango in disguise you have no clue how to rest in melee and are probably just hanging onto the "i love melee hype" to look like you have a clue about what you're talking about. For people like you brawl rest is 1000x better than melee rest and the fact that it kills of the top is the only sort of love you will get from brawl. Be happy that you dont need to worry about a knee to the face after your opponent respawns because if it was horizontal sending in brawl it would suck ballz, and that's all you'd get.

...

Uh.

Brawl rest? I can DI and survive it. Easily. The only thing I have to worry about is the blasted flower that gives me a buttload of damage afterward. (Edit: I should mention that racking up damage has its own advantages, too. But seeing as how shaving off stocks as quickly as possible is your best bet, damage isn't really that big of a deal...especially if the person doesn't die from the rest and just comes back to pound on you).

Melee rest? Loss of a stock. Especially advantageous when the Jiggs player is at low percents and has a stock lead above the other guy, rendering the butt-plugging that they're going to give to the player's recovering Jiggs a moot point.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Minwu]

(And even if it did kill horizontally in Brawl I wouldn't be too worried about a knee to the face anyways)

I think the knee in the face thing was just an example for Melee. If you killed, say, MK horizontally while suffering from rest's cooldown, you'd have to worry about being pushed offstage by an Fair string.