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"Ban"wagon: Getting ridiculous

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AlexX

Smash Ace
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Mar 22, 2008
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651
Garchomp didn't require entire teams to be built around him, but he *DID* make a decent amount of pokemon unviable merely by existing.

That said, this isn't the case here. There's nobody who would magically become viable with MK out of the picture, as the characters who aren't viable right now all have a ton of other problems to deal with. MK is just the icing on the cake when it comes to what makes them unviable.
 

Puddin

Smash Lord
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You're right.

I just tried to open people's eyes, instead of hearing impatient john crap all the time.
You think we don't notice the constant flood of ban MK threads?

Garchomp has nothing to do with this. Yache Berry FTW!! Lol. I use Garchomp.
 

DeliciousCake

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You guys remember the first time this thread was posted? And the second time? And the third time? And the fourth....
 

Deathcarter

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Garchomp didn't require entire teams to be built around him, but he *DID* make a decent amount of pokemon unviable merely by existing.

That said, this isn't the case here. There's nobody who would magically become viable with MK out of the picture, as the characters who aren't viable right now all have a ton of other problems to deal with. MK is just the icing on the cake when it comes to what makes them unviable.
Well, Pit would become viable. Meta Knight is his only horrible matchup.

But anyway, Meta Knight mains are right in saying that non-Metas need to get better at the matchup, but those MK mains are in NO position to be saying that. MKs have to work less harder to learn and win their matchups and half of their matchups are borderline irrelevent anyway. It is like a rich college student who's parents payed for his education criticising a poor person for blaming the fact that he didn't get into college on everyone except himself, even if the rich kid's criticism is right, albeit the example situation is more situational.

The MK mains have to face the facts that they will get criticised for taking the easy character (regardless of your right to choose whichever character you want) unless they are good as Dojo. And non-MK mains have to deal with the fact that Meta is tourney legal.
 

Oracle

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This claim has been said since the day of release, yet things have changed significantly since then. For example, in the first few weeks everyone was convinced camping was an unbeatable tactic. For how long after were we convinced Toon Link was the best in the game? What about Snake? For how long were we convinced he was getting the banhammer?

I'm sorry, but universal ATs or not, I fail to see how things are the same now as they were on release, or how they're going to stay the same from now on.
Gimpyfish started the "brawl will have backwards progression" thread what, 5 months ago? And he was right. No AT's were discovered, the metagame got more defensive and campy, etc. The metagame always changes a lot during the beginning of the game's competitive life, but it slows to a stop quickly if there are no AT's or important discoveries.

Which there probably won't be. Sadly.
 

Miller

Smash Lord
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@ everyone saying about its been enough time for brawl to progress
Are you kidding me, did melee progress over night? Its still progressing to this day. If you don't like it, go play melee or another game
 

SothE700k

Smash Lord
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Captain Obvious is about to speak everyone...

If you constantly lose to MKs and Snakes, it means you suck.

Learn to play better.

:)
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
651
Gimpyfish started the "brawl will have backwards progression" thread what, 5 months ago? And he was right. No AT's were discovered, the metagame got more defensive and campy, etc.
If the game is more defensive and campy than it was back then, why is Meta-Knight, a highly aggressive character, dominating?

The metagame always changes a lot during the beginning of the game's competitive life, but it slows to a stop quickly if there are no AT's or important discoveries.

Which there probably won't be. Sadly.
They just recently discovered some grab-releases a couple characters like Yoshi can do on others, correct? Things are still moving along, so while it might be optimistic to say things will continue to change, it's also rather pessimistic to claim they won't.
 

IvanEva

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Gimpyfish started the "brawl will have backwards progression" thread what, 5 months ago? And he was right. No AT's were discovered, the metagame got more defensive and campy, etc. The metagame always changes a lot during the beginning of the game's competitive life, but it slows to a stop quickly if there are no AT's or important discoveries.

Which there probably won't be. Sadly.
Oh? From my (perhaps limited) observations, he was wrong. Games are being played out at a much faster pace than they were a few months ago; sitting back camping isn't quite what it used to be, even for Snakes. As for advanced techniques (what exactly is the definition of an advanced technique anyways? Something that wasn't intended by the developers? Something just wasn't posted on the DOJO?), several things have been found out (grab releases, wavewhatevers, etc.). I'm not too sure what the fuss about advanced techiques is though. I still haven't found any in Chess but I still consider it the best game ever made.
 

pure_awesome

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Gimpyfish started the "brawl will have backwards progression" thread what, 5 months ago? And he was right.
Gimpy was right for about 6 weeks. Brawl had intense backwards progression, since everyone thought projectile spam and spamming airdodges was the way to go.

Then we realized that powershielding and baiting airdodges were the easiest things in the world. Mindgames ensued, Gimpy was wrong.
 

flash7

Smash Journeyman
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Sonic doesn't.:(

Marth only has a few as well, and they're all hard to space.:(
Marth has pretty good ones Id say, and theyre not that hard to space. Saying they are hard to space makes it sound like you are just lookoing for an easy way out or easy method. You should get the spacing down, itll make you a better player over all.

Dont get into the mentality that: if something is hard then I dont want to have to deal with it.
That seems to be the mentality that most 'ban MK' smashers have.
 

choknater

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Seriously, who believes that "Brawl will become more defensive and campy because of defensive options" crap?

Look at all the Falcos and Diddy Kongs stepping it up. Dojo's Metaknight is on a whole new level. Snake and DDD players are getting beaten more than ever. ROB players step up their game to be more aggressive since they already have superb defensive moves like spotdodge dsmash and laser/gyro techniques.

Defensive options are powerful because they allow players to watch, react, and punish mistakes. But many characters in Brawl have already evolved way past that. Remember Marth's fair and Fox's shine from melee? As long as we can find attacks that are UNPUNISHABLE (tornado, MK's aerials... banana spam... etc.) Then we can develop an aggressive game.

That defensive options crap has been messing with people's minds ever since the release of Brawl.
 

da K.I.D.

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has anyone ever thought that there might possibly be a valid reason that this type of thread gets made 3 times a day...

people say that once we get to the point where MKs are dominating tourney than we can ban him, but think about this.

ROB is supposedly an even match for MK right, than why did OS start playing MK
Lucario can supposedly stand his own against MK right? than why did Azen start playing MK. would you really tell them to l2p or get better, no they are already the best in their respective areas, and theyve realised that being a basic MK player is better than being the best at just about everyother character out there.

think about this:
i understand that hes good, hes great even, but theres no way a person can go through an entire tournament, with players at the skill level of hylian there and win the entire tourney while only losing 1 stock. let me reiterate that for those who didnt get the full effect:

he WON a HIGH LEVEL tournament losing only ONE STOCK the ENTIRE TOURNAMENT.

There is only so far that player skill can take you, at some point you have to realise that part of it was because of character choice.

these threads get made all the time, because the arguement is valid at this point
 

choknater

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That's one extreme example. Maybe it'll get you somewhere, maybe it won't. Have you considered that the rest of the players aren't that good, and Dojo's MK just happened to be better than all of them?

Have Dojo play against Mew2King's DDD and then tell me that MK should be banned.
 

Veril

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There is a thread about banning MK. It is also basically the thread for b****ing about the pro-ban players.

I hate all these MK threads. I read them expecting... not garbage. MK isn't about to get banned or even nerfed (someone had a handicap idea) anytime soon. People aren't going to get off their god d*** soapboxes about how wrong it is to suggest banning MK either.

All the sh***y arguments are being recycled on both sides. Obnoxious condescension on one side, (mostly) nooby whining on the other.
 

brinboy789

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There is a thread about banning MK. It is also basically the thread for b****ing about the pro-ban players.

I hate all these MK threads. I read them expecting... not garbage. MK isn't about to get banned or even nerfed (someone had a handicap idea) anytime soon. People aren't going to get off their god d*** soapboxes about how wrong it is to suggest banning MK either.

All the sh***y arguments are being recycled on both sides. Obnoxious condescension on one side, (mostly) nooby whining on the other.
^this

can someone make a new forum rule:
whoever makes a MK ban thread will get falcon punched in a face
 

Greenpoe

Smash Ace
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Messages
852
Look at the tournament scene...MK wins, what, 5x more than any other character? Where do you draw the line? Should a character win 99% of tournaments before becoming bannable? Should a character win 99.9% of tournmanets before becoming banworthy? I say nay. Ban MK today.
 

Veil2222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
204
There's legitimate arguments on both sides, sadly, nobody is using them....

Argument against the ban: The ceiling for the metagame hasn't been hit by anyone yet, as such we don't know how concrete metaknights game in placement is, or if it will have a negative effect.

Argument for: The gap will create a metagame "vaccume" in that all the people switching to metaknight for his current lead in ability will stunt other characters metagame, or at the least make metaknight the focal point of the entire metagame, hindering the game overall. On top of that, metaknigh is so far in the lead that even when a ceiling is hit, metaknight will still be far in the lead.

There's statistical backup from the character ranking thread stating that there is a very signifigant gap in tournament results, so just saying "stop whining and play better" just doesn't cut it. So far by those results metaknight is taking roughly 33% of 1-8th placements, and 47% of 1st place winnings (those numbers are from the thread, no I didn't make them up, yes they're accurate to around 5% +/-, inga Yunas, go away).
 

panique365

Smash Cadet
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Metaknight IS the best character in the game, just because he's so easy to pick and PWN with, but I don't really care cuz I have yet to find a Metaknight player who was "Unbeatable", and I think Metaknight is a character for noobs, noobs that spam whorenado B move, and that's all they do
 

Zinc Elemental

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has anyone ever thought that there might possibly be a valid reason that this type of thread gets made 3 times a day...
There is a good reason. There are a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about in these forums.

ROB is supposedly an even match for MK right, than why did OS start playing MK
Who exactly told you that ROB and MK were even?

think about this:
i understand that hes good, hes great even, but theres no way a person can go through an entire tournament, with players at the skill level of hylian there and win the entire tourney while only losing 1 stock. let me reiterate that for those who didnt get the full effect:

he WON a HIGH LEVEL tournament losing only ONE STOCK the ENTIRE TOURNAMENT.

There is only so far that player skill can take you, at some point you have to realise that part of it was because of character choice.
First of all, Dojo's MK is pretty ridiculous. He's good WITH the charcter, not BECAUSE OF the character. That's a pretty important distinction you need to make.

Second, Santi admitted he was sandbagging since it didn't matter.

Metaknight IS the best character in the game, just because he's so easy to pick and PWN with, but I don't really care cuz I have yet to find a Metaknight player who was "Unbeatable", and I think Metaknight is a character for noobs, noobs that spam whorenado B move, and that's all they do
Play a good MK before you say that he's a character for noobs.
 

The Falconator

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
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Well, I don't think any character is cheap. I've heard many say Pit is cheap, yet I can destroy him with no problem. He's not that difficult. Same with Metaknight. He's not either. As long as you have a strategy to defeat them, you're good to go.
 

Veil2222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
204
The reason people get so upset about MK is at low casual level he's a big problem because character ability starts him off above the rest of the cast, and he's a problem at the top because good meta players are taking close to more 1stplace wins than the rest of the cast put together.
 

DeathNote

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
130
Hey guys... we don't support MK being banned. Clearly we are the more intelligent "breed" of smashers. Let us all flaunt our obvious superiority over those who want MK banned. It is so obvious that there are no stupid people on the side of not banning Mk. Hell no. Only those who want MK banned are stupid. The reverse cannot be true.

Also guys, just learn to fight MK better. Like Asuma. Sure he was called things like "broken" by many but come on.... If you want to win just fight Asuma like 500 times a day until you see his weaknesses. Stop being babies.

Anyway since I am so superior too those wish for an MK ban I can make threads just as worse as "Why MK should be banned." However since these threads will be pro MK they are a' ok.

/sarcasm

Jesus ****ing Christ. Get over yourselves people. Your opinion is different. No reason to call those that think differently than you stupid, nor is it reason to think of yourselves as superior. I am sure both sides have their brilliant debators and their hopeless morons.


Oh wait... 08 user? Anti-MK? I must be a moron so this post will just be flamed or ignored. Mostly because I am an 08 user though. It is of course scientifically proven that join date reflects intelligence.

P.S. I am neither pro nor anti-MK. I am neutral.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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We're not mocking you for wanting him banned, we're mocking you for wanting him banned for either BS reasons or insufficient reasoning (as in, some of you have a few valid points, but they're not enough or it's too early to conclusively tell).

Yet despite insufficient evidence, some people are still shouting it from the rooftops that Meta-Knight needs to be banned now. Not that there's mounting evidence or that he should be banned eventually but that he should be banned now.

It's those people we (or at least I and anyone credible) mock.

Also, who the heck is Asuma and when did we ever say that that he's beatable if you just work hard enough?

Oh wait... 08 user? Anti-MK? I must be a moron so this post will just be flamed or ignored. Mostly because I am an 08 user though. It is of course scientifically proven that join date reflects intelligence.

P.S. I am neither pro nor anti-MK. I am neutral.
You see a user make an outlandish claim without providing sufficient evidence to prove his potion. You look at his join date. It's sometime this year.

Do you:
A) Assume he's an idiot for making that claim
B) Assume he's right and agree with him

If someone says something either stupid or just isn't able to prove their standpoint and their join date is sometime this year, a lot of us just assume he's new to Smash and/or ignorant of Competitive Smash. Heck, I do it even if people's join dates are '04.

I assume everyone's a moron until proven otherwise. Why should I assume someone's outlandish and insufficiently proven point is right when I've got a mountain of counter-arguments to refute them into yesteryear?
 

Collective of Bears

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Meta Knight is insanely broken. But banworthy, I'm still on the fence. It all depends on how the Metagame (No pun intended) develops. If someone were to discover a huge hole in MK that other chars can exploit, then he would be legal. However, if MK continues to grow in broken-ness as he has been, he may just wind up being banned at some point in time.
 

Veil2222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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204
Yeah.... what I said 8 posts up. Both sides have arguments, good ones, but more importantly ones that can't be resolved yet. If metaknight continues his tournament dominating streak, then the argument for a ban is bolstered, not yet proven, but strengthened. If he wanes or the gap between him and other characters closes more, then the against ban side is going to have more to stand on. For now, its a 50/50 matchup...
 

Yuna

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Yeah.... what I said 8 posts up. Both sides have arguments, good ones, but more importantly ones that can't be resolved yet. If metaknight continues his tournament dominating streak, then the argument for a ban is bolstered, not yet proven, but strengthened. If he wanes or the gap between him and other characters closes more, then the against ban side is going to have more to stand on. For now, its a 50/50 matchup...
"You're NOT original". You were not the first to say this, be it on Smashboards or probably even in this very thread.

And, obviously, some people blatantly ignored your post, thus, they needed a further kick on their bums.
 

Veil2222

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I didn't claim to be the first, I just optomistically hope someone will actually... you know... read my post, instead of steamrolling it with more "lawl jus ban metaknight" and "stop bein a nub no1 shub ban him" +1's ><
 

brinboy789

Smash Champion
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dont u love the people who go HES SO EASY TO PICK UP AND PWN WITH. hes HARD to use. what are the newbies gonan do, spam tornado all day? I main MK and i rarely use the tornado. its just the playstyle ive developed. it takes time and practice. you can just pick him up and say " i feel like pwning so im gonna use MK" . phail.

10phails. unless someone can explain why MK is easy to use. dont say "tornado till 150 then dsmash"
 

Veil2222

Smash Journeyman
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He's got a lower learning curb than his high tier not-really-peers, and he has an easier time with matchups than anyone else. I'm fairly sure neither of those things are much conjecture anymore, anyone intelligent I've seen talk on the subject generally agrees on those two things to an extent.

Snake is harder to learn, and has less good matchups/more counters

Falco is harder to learn, his character isn't nearly as forgiving about spacing. Also bad matchups

D3 is harder to learn, you have to know exactly how to use all of his moves, MK is more forgiving

Marth has plenty of bad matchups now, and his ceiling is kind of low compared to the other high tiers


Metaknight has an awesome, easy to use vanilla moveset (SH fair wall, Uair combos) Amazing, easy to use recovery options that are hard to edgeguard, and nothing but neutral or better matchups.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Who is easier to use than Meta?

How long has he been the best now? Like over half of Brawl's lifespan?
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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Who is easier to use than Meta?

How long has he been the best now? Like over half of Brawl's lifespan?
Ease of technical mastery and ease of winning are two completely different and quite possibly unrelated things. Just because Meta-Knight is the easiest character to win as doesn't automatically make him the easiest character to control.
 

Veil2222

Smash Journeyman
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He seems pretty easy to control for me, nothing too odd or different about him and the only basic mechanics that needs practices is variations of shuttle looping. Even that only takes about ten minuets or so to get down, the rest of his game is pretty straightforeward from looking at the metaknight boards, I've even started using him just for MK dittos if one shows up to practice/tournament. Doesn't really seem as difficult as the other characters I've played to get a handle on.
 
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