BBR Weekly Character Discussion #14: King Dedede

[T-block]

No, we looked into up and there is a Z axis property on rob's dsmash, even though D3 is in another plane, Rob can hit him.


That or I have been fed lies, either way someone should figure these mechanics out.

I'm not completely sure of the details, but I think it's something like this:

Brawl is a 3D game, even though most motion is confined to two dimensions. There's another axis (directed out of the screen, commonly labelled as the z-axis) along which limited motion can occur. Dedede's spot dodge, then, isn't actually invincible for all but two frames, but his hurtbox has moved along the z-axis for some of the time that he's vulnerable, allowing him to still dodge most moves. A move with a hitbox that hits off the standard plane (z=0 if you will) can still connect. Charizard's n-air is one such move. ROB's spot dodge also has similar properties, in that it's not as many invincibility frames as originally thought.

This happens with more than just spot dodges too... here Luigi's neutral-b makes his head travel along the z-axis, so he can dodge the laser which is on the standard plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwI6nf89kQM

 

[Cyphus]

wow..how complicated does all this get? -___-

 

[T-block]

...that's about it I guess. After that it's about finding which moves have hitboxes off the standard plane, and which moves send hurtboxes off the standard plane.

 

[Cyphus]

is there a list of all moves and dodges in the z-axis?

 

[T-block]

Not that I know of...

Here's Reflex's thread made a while ago that didn't get very far unfortunately: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239611
And Michael Hey made a blog post a while ago with some interesting stuff in the comments: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16034

 

[The Real Inferno]

Me and MetalMusicMan had an extensive discussion about the Z-Axis at a tournament last year I believe. It seems pretty much impossible to narrow down everything that interacts along the Z-axis and for how long it does. It's interesting material though, and know if you have a move that consistently hits on this plane, life becomes much easier in punishing spotdodges.

 

[Shaya]

Of course you guys also have to realise that the direction you're facing also effects what moves hit in the z-axis you're after; which depending on which direction the opponent is facing can make things a helllll....

As in Dedede/Wario will move "towards" the screen or "away" from the screen depending on which direction (left/right) they're facing.

Moves work the same.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I think (don't quote me), ROB's D-smash hits both ways (like a bi-sexual!) no matter the direction actually. I'm sure there are probably some other moves like that. I have no idea why we're on this tangent actually. There needs to be more good and valid research on this.

On topic: That Dedede is a pretty cool guy, eh infinites DK and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Hah, I remember that. Anyway yeah his invincibility frames from spot dodge aree actually not that great iirc. However since he goes into the z axis, he has more avoidance from his spot dodge than frame data suggests.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

All spotdodges go into the Z-axis.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Right, doesn't dedede's linger there longer than most though? I haven't actually looked into that in about a year so I'm a little fuzzy.

 

[Crow!]

Yeah, D3 will automatically powershield some attacks upon returning from a spotdodge and holding the shield button... it depends how far the attack targeting D3 goes into the background. My theory is that D3's spotdodge was at some point supposed to be a lot slower than it is, but then they moved up the IASA frame without changing the animation... that's really just a guess, though.

Anyway, I'm not going to bring out my data here because this is the single most problematic case for it: Dedede is an amazing secondary or co-main, much more so than he is a good dedicated main. As a result, not only are his points almost always shared with other characters, but he often takes points from other mains because he's such a good secondary to fall back on in many cases. One need only look at the names of some of the "top 10" D3s to see this:

Atomsk
Lain
Seibrik
Vex
Omni

The real question becomes, how importantly should one rank "this character is very useful to have as a secondary" on a tier list? I have no idea.

 

[Shaya]

Here's how I put it:

"Which X out of 37 characters is the use of Dedede going to end the tournament campaign of Y player?"

And when you consider how diverse X really is (in my opinion), where
he loses to no one he chain grabs except maybe diddy.
And that there are only 10?ish characters he doesn't cg...
and even then he still goes even or has advantages on those he doesn't cg below C/D tier (for the most part)...

By virtue he needs to pretty much always be a tier above those he forces to be rubbish competitively.
However, how people perceive viability of many characters is actually based on how often Dedede is used.
Even though Dedede will mostly remain in his current rank for the rest of the game's life time (imo), other characters he actually "wrecks" will be seen as more viable than they are now as the amount of dedede use decreases.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Personally, I love this character because he's the manifesto of defense. Longest ranged non tether grab, a safe poke, far reaching aerials, and projectiles. He's the 4th heaviest character in the game with the fastest falling speed. Even the threat of the CG can scare your opponent, He has great tools with noticable weaknesses that prevent him from ever being able to go back up to top tier. I could see him dropping but not out of high tier. There aren't many D3 around but everything you need to know is laid out already. I just wish that we can crank out more high placements. Too many D3s fall in the cookie cutter generic style. His options are few but he has mixups. Personally I'm working hard on mixing it up :D

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I made a thread about it a long time ago, and no one cared.

I wanted to compile a list, but no one helped.

EDIT:


I don't mean that Dedede takes a complete lack of thought to win. My Dedede is bad, mostly because I can't run -> shield -> grab, and because I'm not good at close-range fighting with him (read: a lot of important things, hah). It's just that I'm convinced landing certain things in many matchups involves nothing more than a guessing game, and that frustrates me. Let's play the "How Many Jumps?" game. Let's see when my invincibility is going to be on (or, harder still, off!).

I feel like many of the situations he creates have less of an emphasis on psychology and more about getting lucky when the odds are stacked in your favor.

I don't feel like I'm getting my point across well. :/

nah i get what you mean reflex. Honestly, it isnt about luck at all. The only thing i'd consider luck is the dee toss mechanics. Even then though, i've had a few times in bracket matches where i instinctively CG into or just grabbed my opponent then my doo beams them while they're stuck in my grab. Ive also ran into situations where i just abused having the dee/doo out on the field. I've approached with a dee infront, n he jumped and knocked my opponent into the air and i followed up with a fh fair. Ive done the same thing with doo n just approached my opponent while doos beam is out. Obvi doos/dees can limit what DDD can do, so i very seldom use these tactics, only if the correct situation arises tho.

Its really about getting your reads in when it comes to DDD at high levels imho. Especially with tech chasing.

Just wait for that fraction of a second of movement then just react to whatever your opponent is doing. Im starting to play DDD more based on reaction over just simply punishing my opponent with bair.

I agree with Reflex, a lot of the match ups that people consider bad for DDD are greatly exaggerated, except MK

also this right here

IC/MK more of an eye sore for DDD vs. Pika/Oli/Falco

 

[Dark 3nergy]

also i really wish people would get infracted for simply posting; xx char is bad, xx char is amazing. This is a suppose to be a Brawl back room thread, we trust you folks to seriously sit down and intelligently consider every character in the game in a civilized and higher educated manner[obvi you wouldnt BE in the SBR if you WERENT RIGHT?]. I could care LESS what your poorly thought out bias'ed opinion is of whatever character is being discussed. If you dont have ANYTHING constructively intelligent to say[aka not biased OMG], heres a thought, DONT. POST.

Saves me time from having to read horrible 4chan level posting.

 

[Omni]

One need only look at the names of some of the "top 10" D3s to see this:

Atomsk
Lain
Seibrik
Vex
Omni

CO18 he be mad. Omni DDD da bess.

DDD is a compliment character. He can't consistently take #1 at the current metagame level. It's understandable that he'll be used as a counterpick character; mainly Snake and Wario if you focus at the top tiers but DDD can also eliminate the randomness that certain low tiers can bring i.e. Bowser, DK. He can also do well against countering a player's play style i.e. they approach wrecklessly, they suck at getting kills, etc.

DDD's strength, imo, completely lies in his ability to cover a player's bases in terms of match-ups.

 

[Coney]

ddd is a fantastic secondary, probably the best in the game (other than MK. ever notice how often people use the phrase "other than MK?"). a good pocket ddd can take out mediocre to pretty-good mains of lower tiers, but won't be beating the outstanding players of bad characters anytime soon. anyone that thinks their secondary ddd will trample all over players like san or shaky is delusional...unless it's an unreal player behind the controller, because he really is pretty simple.

i've spent my entire brawl career trying to make ddd an aggressive powerhouse and it's worked better than expected. he's a bit more versatile than he's given credit for, but it's no contest that he's much better when playing defense. he's one of those characters that's simple in a difficult way; extremely easy at lower levels, extremely hard at a high level. g&w is similar, i think. it's because you only have a handful of options that you have to think how to most creatively deal with these options, and many players are prepared for it.

ddd has a terrible weakness in not having a standard jab. his only forward OOS option is grab, which leaves him terribly susceptible to characters with good jab or mixup games (this is exactly why falco is so difficult).

he's not a bad character by any stretch, but i still think people are overestimating him. lucario does better against him than expected. some folks still have outdated matchup ideas, like his MU with snake being 75-25 or him and wario going 50-50 or olimar and ddd being anything that isn't 6-4. these are simply untrue. maybe it's due to his relative rarity in terms of actual ddd mains but, the ideas about him are so far out there they're hilarious.

also anyone that says ddd doesn't take thought to play is probably misunderstanding the character. ddd doesn't take any kind of technical precision, this is why i like him. his game is all about managing lag and conserving motion with some hard punishes thrown in. at a high level, anyway. at lower levels it's more like this.

and good players don't lose to that.

 

[CO18]

CO18 he be mad. Omni DDD da bess.

DDD is a compliment character. He can't consistently take #1 at the current metagame level. It's understandable that he'll be used as a counterpick character; mainly Snake and Wario if you focus at the top tiers but DDD can also eliminate the randomness that certain low tiers can bring i.e. Bowser, DK. He can also do well against countering a player's play style i.e. they approach wrecklessly, they suck at getting kills, etc.

DDD's strength, imo, completely lies in his ability to cover a player's bases in terms of match-ups.

But.....But... I dont 2ndary d3! Lrn2read.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Stupid post was hella stupid <_<


More info later. Sleep time.

 

[theunabletable]

About the Z-axis discussion:

Couldn't we just look in PSA to see which hitboxes go into the Z axis? Because I know there's a spot in the hitbox data that refers to the Z axis.

 

[Shaya]

yeah there's a z-axis displacement modifier.

However, hitbox data in the game correlates to the position of a "bone" currently in the animation.

The hitbox data doesn't specifically constantly need a new "point" done up when Marth swings his sword, it's specifically said "okay from tip of marth's sword, there is a hitbox of this size, x/y/z displacement from it"

So whilst some hitboxes have z-axis displacement, this could literally be adjustment from the game animation so it doesn't hit in the z axis.

 

[Lentini]

Back on topic, I'd like to speak a little about D3's "lack of approach options" as they have been brought up here. I assume this means he has trouble with certain campy styles, particularly if the opponent has a spammable projectile like Falco or Pit.

Against these styles I find it effective to move in slowly by shielding and dodging projectiles and covering illusion escape routes. Basically actively persuing stage control until I'm too close for projectile spam, but too far away to get ***** by these two characters very good jabs. At that point it's a matter of what D3 does best: read and let the opponent make the mistake.

Basically, I'm saying I don't think his lack of approach options is much of a weakness when you exercise good stage control.