BBR Weekly Character Discussion #24: Sonic

[B.A.M.]

True Espy however spring dair puts us in a position to continue the edgeguard. At least to my knowledge Espy. Especialy with spring> Di back dair ledge grab. How does Nike get around that? ( its Nike right?) Just curious. Again its example (potentially a bad one) but i hope u understand where im coming from (as u seem to gimp Nike alot, ive gimped tyrants and mikes marth a bit) The point is that I believe the gimping aspect or just edgeguarding aspect of sonic is not abused as much as it should be. We get kills easier this way and rack up alot of time free damage. Majority of the time as long as we understand the characters recovery, no matter where they are, we can rack up damage or potentially get a kill offstage.

I hope i made my point more clear.

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh, I'm well aware that Sonic has decent possibilities for gimping Marth.

I'm just saying that your "UpB to gimp them more" is not a good solution to the lack of a developed edge-game for Sonic.

There's plenty of options, but using UpB to gimp them is definitely not going to work unless you specifically set them up in a "****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't" position.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'd say his best matchups in the upper tiers are against Diddy Kong and ICs, and even then they probably aren't better than 50/50, or 55/45 in favor of the opponent. Sonic shines a lot better against lower-mid and low tier characters where characters have a lot of the same disadvantages but none of Sonic's speed. On the other hand, he doesn't have very few characters that he gets destroyed by either. His worst matchups are likely Marth and G&W, and MK depending on who the MK is (lol). He's not garbage, but his upper tier matchups leave much to be desired beyond the whole "OMG, I don't know how to play against this character" thing that a lot of characters in his tier position get.

switch ICs and GaW in this sentance and its much more accurate.

its possible sonic might even have an advantage on GWatch and ROb but I need to study it more.

1. Get percent lead
2. Stay in one spot
3. ????
4. GG

gdiaf

That's not much of a setup. That's more like capitalizing on an opponent's mistake.

having to touch the ground, so as to refresh your jumps is a mistake?

As slow as Sonic's Fsmash is, if done OoS as soon as possible alot of frame data showcase that there are quite a bit of moves for every character that have at least 27 frames of cooldown.

ex:

MK- ledgehopped SL can get fsmashed or baired
- nado can be directly countered by fsmash and dsmash or simply punished in its cool down

Now of course this is one character, but my point is this. As people become more aware of frame data and better at PS'ing ( well America; Japan is so much better than us at this) Sonic is one character that will gain great boost from this. Oh and things like ledgehopped uair frame advantage and second hit uair ff frame advantage, are things that could potentially give this character more solid kill setups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx3W8MYpIbI
1:08
1:26
2:22
7:55

You have to have VERY intracate knowledge of the character your fighting to do this but punishing flat out with kill moves is going to help a ton with sonics game play.

also, im happy to see that you finally changed your name.

 

[Nike.]

Marth can fair spring. If he's too low to fair then he's close enough to upb, which will go through spring.

Basically, he has to make a mistake to get spring gimped (although sonic can **** a marth without his jump cuz he can grab the ledge so fast). Espy makes it look easy because he straight up out thinks me in alot of these situations.

 

[BSP]

its possible sonic might even have an advantage on GWatch and ROb but I need to study it more.

I think that could be possible too, but we should redo some MU's anyway. And like BAM said, we need to abuse the fact that Spindash can really punish any landing if we time it right. It's strict, but we just need to step it up.

GaW is one of those characters that's got to throw out long lasting, disjointed moves to keep Sonic away. Plus, you could even argue he's one of the most predictable characters.

 

[B.A.M.]

Marths up b doesnt go thru spring. not in the ending frames of the move. Its the same reason why if done properly Falco could spike a Up B from Marth everytime. DEHF talks about this.

EDIT: yeah and Iono where i read this but i thought that springs knockback trajectory was dependent on WHERE you hit the opponent. Also although Marth can fair spring sonic can simply follow him offstage from the top until he decides to drop the spring. It can be done whenever and if connected its usually goodbye stock. Its also something that doesnt really risk anything for sonic either. Again you can say Espy out thinks in those scenarios, but the point im trying to make is that these scenarios usually dont cost him any hard risk. He could keep mixing it up offstage untill he gets u once and ur gone. I hope that makes any sense.
To Summarize: If Sonic expects a fair he can just jump and spring the cool down. When ur too low, the fact you have to fair may be the gimp in itself. Not saying its fail proof, just saying smart springing on marth along with other tools we have can deliver near risk free gimps.

@KID yes! that is exactly what im talking about. The thing is PS'ing like that does require knowledge of MU of a said character but thats something ppl should know anyways. In every other fighting game community ppl know a decent amount of every characters frame data. This isnt that difficult to accomplish, and thats besides the fact that it would be a great aid in solving probably the biggest issue of our character.

I dont know about an advantage on Gdubs. I however believe it is an even match up. A couple good reads from Gdubs has u dead. Side B is amazing in the matchup and keeps Gdubs from otherwise throwing dumb hitboxes out all day. Also SDI ing bair and knowing when to punish it ( watch Praxis video about bair if u dont play a Gdubs regularly) makes things a ton easier.

Whats crazy about the Gdub matchup is that we dont have to fear close combat as he is absurdly slow and things like dtilt>buffered jab shenanigans are quite hard for his character to punish . Although I dont use as much as i should, due to the boost in our close ground combat in this matchup, walking is simply amazing. I honestly think this matchup would be in our favor if it wasnt for two things: Gdubs juggles and Kill power.
A good Gdubs will rack damage on you like no other and then kill you at 90- 100 easy. uair refreshes his kill moves so killing is never really a problem.

I did find out we have some silly gimping tricks on the guy ( imagine that) due to how long his hitboxes stay out. If you can pressure him offstage and bait him to use an aerial and either HA or return to the ledge afterwards u can put him in a bad position. That position can usually net you another edgeguard or sometimes a gimp.

So yeah iono KID im iffy about that matchup. Sometimes i think we actually have an advantage, then i get like 0-deathed with 3 reads and i wonder why this character isnt top tier. The thing is most Gdubs are predictable like no tomorrow. But good Gdubs are too good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

all I know is that speed had to fight vinnie (2nd/3rd best gaw) in pools at apex, and I told him everything I knew about the matchup and he beat him. I want to play him myself before i jump to any kind of conclusion.

also, most moves in this game are more punishable than they seem and punishing out of shield with our kills moves can be super useful even with out powershielding, as long as you know where that punishable lag is.

 

[Vinnie]

G&W:Sonic is probably really bad, but I have no idea how Sonic works at all so I lost. Not to discredit speed though.

 

[Espy Rose]

G&W still has the advantage, Vinnie.
However, Sonic has all the necessary tools to deal with him.

 

[B.A.M.]

true. I say its an even matchup. KID u are absolutely right and this is what i am referring to. There is alot more lag than people account for on moves. If ppl would actually read up on frame data, they would realize that there a quite a bit of moves for any character that can be punished even by our laggy f smash.

KID and Espy, I would love to hear your tactics in the Gdub matchup.

 

[Trent]

Wait for the BAir.

Punish.

Game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my basic philosophy is never stop moving.

 

[B.A.M.]

<_< is that really all you told Speed when he played Vinnie. Come on, i know you have more than that.

 

[Espy Rose]

See laggy moves, receive bacon.

That's how I see the match up.

 

[Kinzer]

(Why settle for just bacon? Why not Steak? Wait,) do you mean G&W's Bacon? What good would that move have in this MU?

No but really though, I've never felt like I've had any problems with this MU. Could be because none of the G&Ws I played were any extraordinary, but it feels so easy when you know what's unsafe on block, how long moves last and blah blah blah. It helps that this character actually has lag and there's little to no gimmick behind it. Getting hit by random 9s is called bad luck FYI.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this ***** stay pumpin me for information...

I told him way more than that but I just dont feel like typing it all out.

 

[B.A.M.]

HAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAH gotta keep the hoes trickin son. Im messin with you KID, real talk though I appreciate the info you've given. I just think itd be nice as whole to get alot of the information our good mains have in their heads and get it down in SWF. Theres alot of Sonics i see posting in the boards who havent necessarily been there at the beginning (lurking or not) who are trying to learn the character. However theres alot of info missing from our boards. Especially when you have a character like sonic with SO many options, it would be nice to get some fresh info in here; people working towards new things.

Sonic boards be on dat African History tip; aint nobody know what the hell went down all these centuries prior to imperialism cept some old *** sages livin in the bush.

 

[B.A.M.]

(Why settle for just bacon? Why not Steak? Wait,) do you mean G&W's Bacon? What good would that move have in this MU?

Stops our recovery and potentially sets up a up smash frame trap. it actually can mess with our recovery time to time dependent if the Gdubs knows what hes doing.

 

[BSP]

Why don't we rediscuss Sonic's MUs soon? Aren't they pretty outdated?

 

[Kinzer]

Why don't we rediscuss Sonic's MUs soon? Aren't they pretty outdated?

They are, but it's very hard to get accurate information on them when people have different levels of knowledge/experience on them. Easily leads to disputes, and arguing takes priority over getting things done. :/

Also WTF @ Bacon edgeuard. That works? That does 3-4%, and because this is GDubs, your damage doesn't matter, since he'll still kill you at a ridiculously low % if you allow him to. Takings the weak hits doesn't matter, just don't be falling for the hard-hitters. I'd be more convinced if it actually did anything to help him when you're onstage.

 

[B.A.M.]

its 3-4% thats halting you in your tracks. which means ull end up having to up b in which he gets to aerial/gimp, trick you into a land camped smash, potential grab, etc. thats why it actually can do something. Not saying its the greatest haha. It can be used effectively though.

 

[Kinzer]

its 3-4% thats halting you in your tracks. which means ull end up having to up b in which he gets to aerial/gimp, trick you into a land camped smash, potential grab, etc. thats why it actually can do something. Not saying its the greatest haha. It can be used effectively though.

I don't know man, usually when I get hit by Bacon, it's after the apex of my first Spring Jump, and getting hit by Bacon at that point makes me a happy hedgehog. Getting my recovery back, and a free dinner to boot?

Admittingly, it may have simply never been used correctly against me, but that's why I was trying to stir up a commotion. I would like for anybody to tell me if Bacon actually had any potential, lol.

Oh right, I've been reading this thread and the last post I made wasn't even pertaining to the actual topic this thread was suppose to serve.

...Why would I want to do that though? I'd get ridiculed if I dared to mention anything about how Sonic as a character and his players have so much room to grow still and that he has a good future whereas a lot of other characters seem to be slowing, if they haven't already halted. Forget the haters, Sonic for low-high/ high-mid tier sefjnguiwthuiweht8ohtoa.

 

[Tesh]

You can hit bounce off of the bacon with homing attack without harming yourself. Then you can spring if you need to or homing attack around him if he continues to throw bacon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

good to know.

 

[Exceladon City]

good to know.

You can do that to mortars as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ah it was 4th best?
No wait i see a conflict where Sonic has 2nd best pummel DPS>
Argh, in anycase, it is very true that Sonic users MUST pummel more.
Its amazing.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sonic main's are cool.


No seriously... you guys have stuck with your character from the beginning and that's something that's awesome. Espy's post was amazing too. Kudos to you Sonic mains.

 

[Trillion]

G&W still has the advantage, Vinnie.
However, Sonic has all the necessary tools to deal with him.

I feel this applies to every match up for Sonic.

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^ congrats on becoming a sonic main.

 

[~TBS~]

Sonic main's are cool.


No seriously... you guys have stuck with your character from the beginning and that's something that's awesome. Espy's post was amazing too. Kudos to you Sonic mains.

Yeah...i guess we can give ourselves a pat on the back for coming this far. I guess the only thing to do now is to keep going huh.

 

[Trillion]

^^^ congrats on becoming a sonic main.

Thanks for the sarcasm.
However, I suppose that tells me that I didn't get across what I meant to say.

I mean to say that I think Sonic has the ability to have the advantage in every match up, though we currently have not reached that point.

- We can play the aggressor, the camper using a hit and run style, and to a lesser extent we can play the defender reliably enough.
- Our speed allows us to control the flow of the match and to control the stage.
- Our spin cancels and dash dance pivots etc. provide us with tools for creating mindgames which is an ability that is almost exclusive to Sonic.
- We have great recovery options plus good weight and with smart DI, we can use the spins to cancel our side momentum and live to really high percents.
- Spins give us opportunities to combo reliably and rack up damage really well. What we lack in high powered hits and low priority, we make up for in our ability to capitalize per hit.
- We all have decided that Sonic is best played as a reactive character; punish the opponents mistakes and use our unique mindgames to bait those mistakes.

Two and a half years into brawl, we have done a ton of work to get to the point we are at today and we should be very proud of that, however I think that it's also sad to think that we are still having the same problem that we have had since the beginning.

Lately, I've been thinking that we have been going about things a bit wrong. Rather than try to focus on our weak point, why aren't we focusing on maximizing our strong points? As was said on a previous page by Espy I think, we have to force the opponent to make a mistake before we can get our kills.

This summer while I was getting to play at MMM's house, I started experimenting with a new strategy which was to focus more on not getting hit and focusing not on killing, but on racking up damage. I played very patient resorting myself to the idea that I would probably have to get kills via up throw. It resulted in me living longer lives to much higher percents, having a much greater damage output, and having a pretty good win/loss ratio.

 

[Kinzer]

Rather than try to focus on our weak point, why aren't we focusing on maximizing our strong points?

How is one suppose to answer this? Technically, either is a positive development, but depending on who you ask, different emphasis will be put into different places. That is the blessing and curse of this character

And if you ask me, a character that has no weak points is the closest thing to being "perfect." You can explore everything and develop good habits for the pluses Sonic has, but if he has flaws in other areas where it gets to the point that his opponent abuses him and allows Sonic no leverage to use his positives, what good does having those advantages do you?

Meta Knight and Ganondorf may as well be the personification of the point I'm trying to make.

Regardless, As much I may advocate for eradicating Sonic's flaws, I only know how to go about researching his positives. Let's face it, there is little that can be done to make his kill moves faster, or his damage-racking attacks hit any harder. All that can be done; I believe, is to find frame advantages, or strings that lead into said kill moves, while exploring different ways go about approaching the opponent and hitting them. Preferably the ones that guarantee Sonic into other potential or guaranteed follow-ups, going back to square one is fine and all, however the whole point of the battle is to have the upper hand. Yes.

 

[Trillion]

How is one suppose to answer this? Technically, either is a positive development, but depending on who you ask, different emphasis will be put into different places. That is the blessing and curse of this character

And if you ask me, a character that has no weak points is the closest thing to being "perfect." You can explore everything and develop good habits for the pluses Sonic has, but if he has flaws in other areas where it gets to the point that his opponent abuses him and allows Sonic no leverage to use his positives, what good does having those advantages do you?

Meta Knight and Ganondorf may as well be the personification of the point I'm trying to make.

Regardless, As much I may advocate for eradicating Sonic's flaws, I only know how to go about researching his positives. Let's face it, there is little that can be done to make his kill moves faster, or his damage-racking attacks hit any harder. All that can be done; I believe, is to find frame advantages, or strings that lead into said kill moves, while exploring different ways go about approaching the opponent and hitting them. Preferably the ones that guarantee Sonic into other potential or guaranteed follow-ups, going back to square one is fine and all, however the whole point of the battle is to have the upper hand. Yes.

What I'm trying to say is that we don't have to rely on landing that Fsmash or bair. If we focus simply on racking up more and more damage, then eventually we will just be able to up throw them off the top since getting a grab is so much easier. I don't mean at all to say that we should ignore our chances to use fsmash and bair to get the kill, but we don't need to try to force it. We can simply play it safer and keep building up a bit more damage until eventually the opportunity for the easier kills show up or we just finish it with an up throw.

We don't have to resort to waiting to punish a mistake to get the kill, so we don't have to rely on our opponent making a mistake in order to overcome our flaw. Instead, we can work AROUND our flaw by redirecting our focus to our strengths.

 

[da K.I.D.]

other people have stronger strengths.

using this kind of tactic against snake and mk tends to show its true flaws.

snake lives forever, and every time you let him come back to the stage you give him the chance to kill you at half the damage that hes at.

mk can kill you at any point at any time, from just about anywhere, so no matter how safe you play getting him up to 170, theres always the chance you can catch a quick f throw shuttle loop and die at 65...

against characters the follow the rules, however, that is a very viable tactic.

 

[BSP]

Also remember that Sonic's damage racking options aren't all that safe either, which means you could be eating % and possibly a stock while your opponent just takes a little more %. I'll agree that Sonic's got tools to deal with pretty much any situation, but even those tools aren't failsafe.

 

[Abel1994]

Thats aint shadow!