BBR Weekly Character Discussion #28: Ike

[Darkmusician]

After playing a few olimars recently, I think it's around 40:60 tbqh. Advantages are pretty much the same, but I don't think they're as crippling as once thought (for instance, shield grab, and the effectiveness of pikmin throw), and we actually have some gimmicks. Same with falco.

I think Marth and DDD are 35:65 (I think I'm missing 1 more but I forget). I tried to logic out DDD being easier, but despite everything we can do, DDD gains too much of a reward through 1 grab, and avoiding the grab is feasible but difficult with his grab range/grab armor, etc. MK imo is 30:70 from so many things MK can theoretically do (some things I haven't seen mid-match yet). Things could be better, but I usually view things in the worse case along the lines of what they can us than vice versa.

I also think Ike does decent on pretty much every stage except FD. I don't like FD because it conflicts with my personal style, and I think Ike's much more predictable with everything on that stage. Ike is decent at utilizing most gimmicks on stages-->platforms (up air, nair, bair), walkoffs (bthrow-->dash attack), moves/throws that work well with interactive stages. Ike's only hindered by how well another character does on a stage.

So do you typically ban FD no matter what? Or is it still character dependent? Do you often have to use Ike on Rainbow Cruise and if so how does that go for Ike?

 

[san.]

Due to my playstyle, it's hard for me to play a certain way that benefits Ike on FD (retreating fair, patience and ground camping). I'm not good at doing that kind of stuff/that playstyle, and that affects the way I see Ike being able to do it.

Lots of people like to CP rainbow cruise against me. Everyone who CPd rainbow cruise against me at Apex lost.

Ike does fine on the ship part, and can pretty much cover the entire stage with range. He has an fthrow lock on a few characters like falco on the ship part. Ike sharks the floors/Plays a keepaway game during the moving transition. The weakest part for him is during the swinging section where Ike should play it safe and keep away from danger. Luckily, that section barely lasts that long. The last section is like a moving Battlefield, where Ike has 2 chances to get another wall fthrow lock.

Ike really can't get camped by the likes of falco or other projectile users on this stage that much (compared to FD) because he's free to pressure with long-range aerials most of the time, and the stage moves.

 

[theeboredone]

I dunno San, you seem to be the only Ike I think that feels Olimar is 40:60. In general, Ike mains find Snake more plausible than Olimar. Now if you tell me that Olimar has a steeper learning curve, than I might reconsider, but if you're saying both these guys on average are the same difficulty, than I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

In any case, this isn't a place to discuss MUs.

@Music. Most Ike mains don't mind RC unless we're playing MK there. Hell, I don't mind playing G&W there. The only chars that give me real trouble there is DDD and MK. Yet to play a good Kirby there.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I think much of the time, if you win game 1, you can win the set against Ike. Depending on the character, of course.

MK is worst. Marth isn't too far behind, IMO. DDD is bad. Olimar is.. meh, annoying. Snake would be in Ike's favor if not for his Ftilt, IMO. Diddy is quite doable, pretty even actually with conscious thinking and work (I did once take a game off Gnes in tourney). G&W is not bad, pretty even also with active thinking and keeping bad habits out of your game. Most other matches are probably 4-6 except our auto-wins like Ganon, CF, Bowser (yeah, I said it) and other decent matches like Luigi, Earthbound boys.

Sometimes I think Ike should be mid tier, but sometimes I can't think of a place other than very top of low tier for him. The reason for that is MK and the abundance of people who use him.

Also, Ike never has any options if you are in front and below him. It's true on the ground, too. Kirby and Snake and others can duck under jabs and grabs.

 

[Darkmusician]

Thank you awesome Ike mains for the enlightenment.

 

[Browny]

bbr should just ask san where to put ike on the list instead of all this discussion tbh.

How does the BBR see Ike relative to Sonic, wolf and sheik? Seems like those 4 characters are headed for a tier of their own from what I've read of these discussions.

 

[DMG]

Ike: Worse than Shiek and Wolf. Sonic depends on how highly you think of him.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Magic Jabs. lol

Are there any characters that Ike's walking double jab is real on?

Oh, just noticed this post. Yes, there is one. Ganon. ROFL.

Spoiler

Combat walked Ganon halfway across a stage to dtilt off the edge once in tourney. Lmao.

Everyone else is floaty and should SDI out by the second/third jab.

 

[Darkmusician]

Ah so it is real on Ganon. I also have seen Ganon get combat walked across stage. The Ganon was screaming in despair.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

IIRC, it's also a true combo on Zelda for some odd reason. Just those two you can combat walk, though it's not very practical at all. Heck, I'm not even positive it was Zelda, I just remember it working on another random character and Zelda seemed to stick out in my mind.

 

[Darkmusician]

That's sounds about right. Zelda's slow, tall, and helpless.

 

[san.]

Characters who have slow fairs or are weak in front and below them are also very susceptible to jabs. Also, SDIing out of the 2nd/3rd hit of jab does not automatically relieve you're problems especially if the character has the previously noted problem.

The combat walk is kind of gimmicky at first glance, but it is actually pretty useful when you realize you should be using it as a mixup tool rather than mindlessly holding down A. Ike is adept against characters without adequate vertical spacing options (good fall speed, many jumps, aerial mobility, good vertical momentum-altering moves)

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm actually rather surprised at this analysis.

I must've been gone for way too long.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm actually rather surprised at this analysis.

I must've been gone for way too long.

Yep.

Maybe I'll get to play you in a tournament one of these days, seeing as you live in SA now as well. As long as I get a job at some point...

 

[HeroMystic]

Maybe. College has been eating away at my free time. Nevermind the money management issues as far as tournaments go.

And my Wii just broke (again) 30 minutes ago right as I was playing Metroid Other M.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Just throwing it out there, I recently fought a Lucario on wifi and he was able to SDI out of jab1 to avoid jab1 again.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You were probably jabbing too slow dude, particularly if it was your first set of jabs.

 

[Teh Future]

-DMG is an idiot

-so are the ike boards.

you guys should stop listing matchups as worse than 60-40 when you have no trouble winning them.

Ike does fine against EVERY character in the game

he is high midtier imo

 

[AN(M)ist]

Ike does fine against EVERY character in the game except MK, olimar, DDD, marth & falco.

he is somewhere in midtier imo

**fixed**.

 

[DMG]

So, despite his own mains saying that he is either low tier or no higher than midish of mid tier, you go on and say that.

Ike has some issues. Anyone that can reliably force him to approach tends to poop on him a bit. Falco, Olimar, MK, Dedede, Snake, pick your poison.

Ah, thank you Mist.

 

[AN(M)ist]

not at all,

Any character in brawl who is not MK have counterpicks, Ike is no different. I have a hard time against the ones I listed and that's on the same page with other Ike mains.

You guys can check out our Ratio Topic to better understand what Ike mains think of MUs.

btw, San winning against those high tiers must be why teh future thinks Ike does fine against every character. All I want to say is winning doesn't make MUs go 6:4 or less, that's just ...well... unwise.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Snake isn't a problem DMG. 40-60. The only "problem" MUs are MK, Olimar, D3, Falco, and Marth. Anything else is 40-60 at worse. Even then, Olimar is apparently debatable according to San and a number of Olimar mains (I've seen as low as 45-55), and the Falco boards only claim they have a 60-40 advantage last time I checked. *shrugs*

 

[san.]

Even if I or someone else might not have much trouble vs a specific or specific characters, can't deny the theorycraft and stuff like that if it makes sense. Ex. Nick Riddle beating DEHF. I think DEHF may have beaten NR before (I forget), but NR winning in a not so good MU can at most make people look differently to determine whether certain aspects of the MU aren't as crippling as once thought (or not) if the theorycraft was plausible.

It's difficult to quantitatively analyze some of Ike's jab mixups, though.

 

[DMG]

4:6 isn't good either, especially against a character so common. I sure wouldn't want to face Marth a lot as Wario even though the matchup is just 4:6.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's fairly good: means it's completely doable, you just have to work at it a bit.

I'm fine with MUs where you only have a 4-6 D. Anything past that starts to get a bit shaky though. Anything past 3-7 is just "ABANDON SHIP! MAN THE LIFE BOATS! SWITCH TO MK NAOW!". Except I don't use MK, so I'm screwed. Luckily, Ike has nothing worse than 3-7.

 

[theeboredone]

Having a high tier main do a 4:6 MU is a rarity and consider the task more difficult for them in comparison to a lesser character who has plenty of 4:6 MUs. If anything, we're just used to trying super hard to get our wins in comparison to others.

 

[LuLLo]

Having a high tier main do a 4:6 MU is a rarity and consider the task more difficult for them in comparison to a lesser character who has plenty of 4:6 MUs. If anything, we're just used to trying super hard to get our wins in comparison to others.

And by ''having a high tier'' I assume you mean MK? Because he's the one with fewest 60-40 matchups, the other high tiers have plenty, Marth for example has 60-40 all around the roster. I don't see it as an advantage for us to work harder to get the win every time, sure, we gain an advantage in being used to working hard, but working hard itself is a disadvantage. It's the same as being used to your parents beating you up every time, whilst your new foster-parents do it less, so it doesn't hurt as hard, why that's quite an advantage indeed.
And if the high tier just knows his thing, he doesn't have trouble with the few 60-40's he has, hell, they should FOCUS on those matchups if they could possibly cause trouble.

 

[san.]

It's not about working hard, it's about playing better. I barely work hard when I play.

 

[theeboredone]

It's the same thing to me San. You can't get better if you don't work hard. Unless of course, you're naturally talented.

 

[LuLLo]

Sure you can play better than someone else, but that's only if you're BETTER than them, and in your case San, it's not that hard . I wonder why you stay with Ike while you can do better with somebody else higher on the list (well, one would assume that).

 

[theeboredone]

Some people are good fits with certain characters. For example, I had an easy time playing with Ike while a person like MK or Sonic is way too difficult for me.

 

[Teh Future]

Ive watched multiple ike mains beat diddy kong olimar snake and go even with mk.

D3 is the only possible matchup that could be worse than 6-4. mk is the only one that could be as bad as 6-4 imo

you guys can sit and pretend like ike has bad approaches (lol he doesnt at all dmg is dumb and thinks any character that isn't mk isnt viable) but it doesn't matter because he hits you twice and you are dead while living to snake like percentages. not to mention he can read any character resulting in a kill at like >50 ANY character can get hit with a move if ike reads an air dodge

and yes this is MY OPINION you can disagree with it but dont try to justify it by listing "bad matchups" when ive only ever seen ike beat these characters against GOOD players

 

[DMG]

Those people, who you saw beat those characters, say for themselves that the matchup ratios are worse than you believe (in most cases).

Ike has bad approaches. Ike is a bad character. He's not supposed to approach well. He has no projectile or quick, long ranged moves. What he has are long ranged sledge hammer like attacks that require him to pull back and use all his might to move the sword forward.

My definition of bad is anyone below DK/Peach. Sure, that's a long list of characters, but frankly they aren't supposed to be viable in tournaments. Sure, for some reason Ike and Luigi and Wolf and all sorts of weird characters get in, either from really good players behind them or lack of matchup experience, whatever it may be. It won't change the fact that they are nowhere close to being some normal, standard counted on tournament pick. Maybe your definition of bad is just Low Tier. Frankly, until you get past the DK/Peach Mark, everyone under that is garbage. I hear all the time "Oh man this character has the potential, this character is too low bump" and then you look up at characters that don't suck so much and you go "Geez I wish I didn't get CG *****" or "I wish people couldn't tilt lock me or edge guard me blindfolded" or "I wish I could approach and put on shield pressure other than spaced Fairs and jabs."

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Most of the time, if Ike is beating a good MK, a large part of it is the MK not knowing the MU. Diddy Kong and Snake make perfect sense for Ike to beat. Olimar is kinda a strange one.

And Ike doesn't have good approaches. His moves are better off as a defense than an offense, though Nair can do the job in a pinch. But it's mainly Jab or the occasional Dash Attack/Bair as an "approach".

 

[Teh Future]

Ike gets "CG *****" by ONE character, and nothing else applies. DK gets "CG *****" too btw but somehow still fits your definition of viable

Ike doesnt approach people from across the stage, he just closes the gap and baits+punishes

 

[Mr. Doom]

I don't have serious problems against D3. His on-stage game may be good, but it's one huge problem for him as long as he's off-stage. The same holds true for Ike, in a way. However, in all situations I've been through, Ike can recover without taking serious damage, yet D3 usually takes at least 25% offstage trying to recover. Now I have a question: what does D3 have against Ike besides CG and B-air? Enlighten me, please.

Then again, one can't really rely on my testimony since I haven't played those name-brands yet like CO18 and Atomsk.

 

[Teh Brettster]

It's just that if you ever, ever have to use a jump in momentum cancelling, D3 kills you. He's actually really good at gimping Ike. He's the only character that can fall as fast as Ike AND have multiple jumps to get back. Bair should kill a jumpless Ike most of the time. You also have to space Aether so you won't get hit by Ftilt every time.

And yeah, D3 gets a lot of reward for a really easy grab. He would be a much, much less serious threat if he had IC grab range or Zelda grab speed, or if he fell only as fast as Kirby or if he weren't as heavy as balls. But he has all of HIS stuff, and it just so works out that if he plays the match-up, he hurts Ike.

Though he's not so awful like I say MK is. He's just bad.

 

[DTK.L]

Well to answer your question D3 Does have a side b projectile attack that could be useful for most of the time depending on the timing accuracy and if you want to say luck for gordo's, Other than that i can't really think of anything else. everything but his ftilt has good range and our fair out spaces his own but i don't fight many D3's so im basing my opinion on what i observe and fight.

 

[Yamato Hong]

Does stale move negation hit hard on Ike?

I heard jab canceling helps refresh his moves. ^-^

 

[san.]

Stale moves don't really hurt Ike. The only moves that we care about staling at all are probably fair and maybe bair, since they can be kill moves yet also used in a good number of situations. Even then, unless we hit someone with one of those moves many times in a row, jab, nair, pummel, bthrow, and dash attack help keep other moves fresh, and most of the time, we use all the rest of the moves not listed similar amounts.