BBR Weekly Character Discussion #5: Snake

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, contrary to popular belief, Olimar is extremely vulnerable to grabs, if someone breaks through his fortress. Snake's dthrow follows are definitely dangerous for Olimar, due to Olimars get up roll being both slow and short. It's still a guessing game, though. Snake just has the odds a little higher for him than they normally would be.

I really the the solid advantage for Olimar is an over exaggeration; a reaction to a character not getting demolished by Snake, which isn't too common, to be honest. Once one character (other than Meta Knight) does well against Snake, people overreact and label it as a solid disadvantage for Snake. Same with DDD, when the matchup was believed to be a solid advantage for DDD. I really think Meta Knight is the only character with a solid advantage against Snake. Others just do well enough to give him a hard time.

 

[swordgard]

Yeah, contrary to popular belief, Olimar is extremely vulnerable to grabs, if someone breaks through his fortress. Snake's dthrow follows are definitely dangerous for Olimar, due to Olimars get up roll being both slow and short. It's still a guessing game, though. Snake just has the odds a little higher for him than they normally would be.

I really the the solid advantage for Olimar is an over exaggeration; a reaction to a character not getting demolished by Snake, which isn't too common, to be honest. Once one character (other than Meta Knight) does well against Snake, people overreact and label it as a solid disadvantage for Snake. Same with DDD, when the matchup was believed to be a solid advantage for DDD. I really think Meta Knight is the only character with a solid advantage against Snake. Others just do well enough to give him a hard time.

Couldn't you infinite him if you had fast reaction time due to his getup attack starting the other way.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Starting the other way?

 

[Crow!]

I think swordgard's saying that Olimar's getup attack after a Snake DThrow attacks in the direction away from Snake before it would actually go toward Snake, so that Snake does not need to predict a getup attack and can instead just react to it.

I have no idea if this is true, and I have no idea if it would be enough to make the tech chase go from good to in-theory-guaranteed-within-human-reaction-time even if it is true.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

No, Olimar attacks towards the opponent first with his Get Up Attack.

 

[napZzz]

I don't get how you guys can say that Diddy is the only one that can pass Snake. Falco is better than both of em. But alright. lol


am i the only one that agrees with ally on this? snake sucks =D

--yay Edreeses

I've been saying this for awhile now, not like my opinion matters

 

[∫unk]

olimar's getup attack has surprising range... ghost pikmin on the hitbox i guess >__>

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People really should take a look at the thread me and SuSa did regarding get-up attacks. For olimar, if they did nothing but rolls and getting up, snake could react to it. Get-up attack however is completely a guess. But anyway, it is good to hear people coming to an accord about snake not being nearly as good as he once was.

 

[Blacknight99923]

the problem I see with snake is who can fill his spot? like crow said

if falco takes it then when people start using pikachu to hard counter Falco will drop

Diddy? who everyone but M2K believes MK beats diddy along with not actually beating (correct me if I'm wrong) character in high tier?

Ice climbers? I honestly don't see any ice climbers winning tournaments or placing particularly highly at large events recently. that being said I haven't seen swordguard attend one in the US

Marth? like crow said not with MK

I mean snake isn't hard countered like falco so it seems to me that if anyone is going to take snakes spot its diddy who is still questionable

 

[AvoiD]

Snake is overrated. His options of getting back on the stage are predictable, and easy to punish. Most Snakes are forgetting though, that you have 0-lag when you land with a grenade in hand using grenade-pull. Dunno why, but players often try to land with a FF'd airdodge, every single time, which gets punished to easy. With grenade pull, you can shield, roll, spotdodge, jump (as soon as you touch the ground?) or throw the nade, much safer then anything else while recovering. You just have to use it smartly, mixing it up with b-reversals/wavebouncing, or by normal if you think your opponent will predict that you'll b-reverse. FF'd AD isn't bad to use every once in awhile, but I mean, its predictable. If you ever have the chance though, getting to the ledge is your best bet, even if your above the stage recovering, you could always drop down and ff to the ledge quickly, which most players don't expect, when they usually expect you to land on the stage.

F-Tilt, waaaay to punishable, many people are finding ways around it. Diddy, with a banana in hand can throw it after the first hit of f-tilt I think? Marth can dolphin slash outta the first hit, pretty sure alotta' chars with little to slightly lagging moves can get out of it. If they don't, its easy to shield, predict when its coming, basically the only way to get it is outta' a mindgame, less the player messes up, which Snake is amazing at punishing imo, or if he is playing hella' dumb.

I also think ZSS is one of the hardest mu's for ZSS, for now at least, due to not many people actually KNOWING the matchup correctly. Snake probaly has a slight advantage, due to how early ZSS dies, but Snake gets juggled more then anything, which ***** him, not just in singles, but doubles as well.

Snake vs. ZSS - 55:45
Snake vs. Diddy - 55:45
Snake vs. MK - 45:55
Snake vs. D3 - 40:60
Snake vs. Falco - 45:55
Snake vs. Marth - 50:50

D3 is probaly the toughest outta those, due to how easily D3 can gimp Snake. If a D3 can read the Snake well off stage, then it's a stock loss. I guess most Snakes don't know that D3's suck (Neutral B) beats cypher, which is basically like Wario's. Snake's have 1 frame iirc to break out of D3's cg with a nade, but I'm not to sure on that.

But basically, anyone that can juggle Snake and has an amazing edgeguard game, will completely destroy him.

That's all I have for now, tired, post more later.

EDIT: Also, I think Snake would have to be 4th best on the tier list imo.

1) MK
2) Diddy
3) Falco
4) Snake
5) Marth

if it were to be ranked like that, that's what I'd say.

 

[-Ran]

Snake vs. ZSS - 55:45
Snake vs. Diddy - 55:45
Snake vs. MK - 45:55
Snake vs. D3 - 40:60
Snake vs. Falco - 45:55

Going by the current match up charts.
14 characters have match ups that are 60:40 in Snake's Favor.
19 characters have match ups that are either even, or +- 5.
7 characters have match ups against Snake that are 'unwinnable' below 60:40.

This is compared to the 5 characters that have match ups that are either even or +-5 vs Mk.

A meta-game in which Snake exists without MK, is one where a Snake player will need to know at the very least 19 match ups considerably well. However, with the existence of Meta Knight, Snake isn't exposed.

 

[tibs7]

Diddy can not throw inbetween ftilts, have no idea where you got that.....

Falco is better than snake, but not diddy.

 

[etecoon]

the retardedness contained in this thread is disgusting

SNAKE IS NEARLY UNPUNISHABLE, HE HAS NO DISADVANTAGED MATCHUPS!!!

seriously? these are back room members? l m f a o

props to redhalberd and ally for actually having some **** sense, halzy's post was ****

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Diddy can not throw inbetween ftilts, have no idea where you got that.....

Falco is better than snake, but not diddy.

Eh Falco is kind of like Snake in the sense that his metagame is somewhat at a standstill too but had such solid tools that he's managed to retain his spot on the tier list for so long. Falco has a lot of dumb tricks but he's still a relatively simple character. Maybe not like Snake but still. I don't see him climbing over Snake to be honest.

I see Diddy taking 2nd.

 

[etecoon]

I like how no one thinks of diddy as being as good as he is now, it's always either

diddy has so much untapped potential, he could even be as good as MK

or

diddy is just a gimmick that relies on people not having banana exp, he has no where to go but down

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I always thought Diddy was ****. I mean back in the day the first statement was definitely true either way but i always saw him as top tier potential.

 

[Berserker.]

You guys broke the streak of BBR posts -_-

I think Diddy might get tied up with Snake for 2nd position in the tier list. Both have pretty good potential and both have tools that you can use to create an unlimited amount of strategies.

If we don't do anything about our metagame, I'm sure Diddy will take over 2nd and that's the snake boards situation right now. As for Falco, I think he won't touch Snake. I still think there is a chance of Snake staying in 2nd in the next tier.

I'm with technical chase here

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This was said earlier but I think we need to be more proactive when it comes to developing Snake's metagame. We have not hit our peak yet. There are still aspects we can mess around with. The other character boards (with a few exceptions) are really working at it. I mean Diddy Kong mains are so proactive. AlphaZealot declared a long time ago he would do his part to put Diddy at least at 4th and now he's 3rd. Ice Climbers have moved up and from hanging out with Lain, he's developing a new IC trick that could potentially put ICs at 4th. I still think they have some potential as well. The point is, its so easy to speculate the tier list and tournament results but what is being done. We need more people willing to do that seemingly weird and crazy **** as experiments.

Back to the tier list thing. Snake probably won't drop below 3rd in my opinion. I don't see Falco rising above him. I think Ics could take 4th really at this point. I don't see Marth going any higher than what he is now. Wario has potential. I never believed for a second he was ever worthy of 3rd though at this point of the metagame.

Oh and @ AvoiD: I really don't see how Falco is 45-55. Its stil dead even as far as I'm concerned. Its such a simple matchup too its just frustrating.

And I don't believe D3 is 40-60. 45-55 seems more accurate. Back in the day this match was ******** but even against good D3s I haven't found it to be too bad. Just requires extremely safe playing.

Metaknight/D3 are tied for worst matchup in my opinion. But he doesn't have any unwinnables. Its just amazing how many characters can go even with our seemingly "broken" one man army character.

 

[Albert.]

I like how no one thinks of diddy as being as good as he is now, it's always either

diddy has so much untapped potential, he could even be as good as MK

or

diddy is just a gimmick that relies on people not having banana exp, he has no where to go but down

It should be a middle ground between these two extremes lol

 

[DMG]

Diddy can throw a banana after the first hit of Ftilt. Your advantage is more than 8 frames IIRC.

 

[OverLade]

Great post by Avoid, I completely agree, though people who think Snake has ANY unwinnable matchups are ********.

Snakes weaknesses are easily exploitable by ANY CHARACTER. Characters like Jiggs are obviously not likley to beat Snake but Ike/Falcon/Yoshi/Ness/Zelda all have COMPLETELY REALISTIC MATCHUPS against him.

Ally and Razer have lost to San.
Hrnut and Afro have lost to Shaky
Afro and I have both lost to Poltergust
Ed and Riot do really well vs Snake

Snake has more close matchups than Falco and probably more than Diddy as well. Snake is literally only second because of MK and he doesn't even do that well against MK anymore.

 

[DMG]

Actually Ness is the only one that doesn't seem realistic to beat Snake IMO. Everyone else yeah.

 

[OverLade]

Shaky denies your realism and replaces it with his own... I think (never played him with Snake so dunno).

I've seen Fow do work on DSF with Ness though, the matchup doesn't seem terrible.

 

[Pierce7d]

I'm fairly certain that the second hit of ftilt comes out within 8 frames of the first. However, Snakes intelligently hit confirm with ftilt, so they will frequently leave an opening in which Diddy can throw the banana. In the end, it comes down to a small reading game, that appears to be slightly in favor of the Diddy, since Ftilt isn't safe on block in the first place.

 

[Ussi]

To anyone who wants to see how Snake is actually punishable (San vs Razer)

@RedHalberd Isn't Zelda terrible vs Snake and his ability to range camp Zelda? O_o...

 

[DMG]

Pierce, Idk like you can shield grab Snake easily before his 2nd hit comes out (before it looks like he even moves forward any). That's 6 frames with Dedede/most characters. You probably can get a banana toss in

 

[OverLade]

To anyone who wants to see how Snake is actually punishable (San vs Razer)

@RedHalberd Isn't Zelda terrible vs Snake and his ability to range camp Zelda? O_o...

I didn't say she was good vs Snake I said it's not unwinnable or unrealistic because any character with a shield can read snake beat his ground game via mix ups. If the matchup is 65/35 that doesn't mean it's unwinnable vs Snake, or even should be unwinnable.

 

[GimR]

Meep beat Ally this weekend.

Logic was about to beat Ally this weekend but defeated himself, lol

Chu was about to 3-0 Ally this weekend but decided to be an idiot and try to time Ally out when he(Chu) had a 80% life advantage and could've won with a B-air

Ally wasn'y playing his best, but MD/VA is really good against Snake lol

 

[napZzz]

Meep beat Ally this weekend.

Logic was about to beat Ally this weekend but defeated himself, lol

Chu was about to 3-0 Ally this weekend but decided to be an idiot and try to time Ally out when he(Chu) had a 80% life advantage and could've won with a B-air

Ally wasn'y playing his best, but MD/VA is really good against Snake lol

thats what people say about florida. And east coast. And various places in west coast.

Maybe snake just isn't that good?

 

[OverLade]

thats what people say about florida. And east coast. And various places in west coast.

Maybe snake just isn't that good?

That's the reality, though I'd argue FL and MD/VA are especially good against Snake due to being populated with good snakes since the beginning of brawl.

But of course people like "BUT ALLY ALWAYS PLACES TOP 3 OTHER SNAKES JUST NEED TO STEP IT UP!!!"

SMH.

 

[Limeee]

snake has huge blind spots

like in front of him in the air

he has nothing there

 

[Blacknight99923]

which is why Snake has no real way of managing marths fair

 

[napZzz]

which is why Snake has no real way of managing marths fair

snake has no options to deal with well spaced fairs unless he can somehow dash attack or mortar slide underneath it if I recall

 

[Blacknight99923]

well I suppose he could crouch it but that doesn't punish a fair

 

[etecoon]

you can't crouch marth's fair, you can crouch his nair like 99% of the time though

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think Dash attack is fairly easy to use there. Its helped me get inside pretty easily. Haven't really tried to use the Slide though. Otherwise I just try to Powershield everything.

 

[OverLade]

snake has no options to deal with well spaced fairs unless he can somehow dash attack or mortar slide underneath it if I recall

Yeah he really doesn't. I try to space marth vertically by powershielding and glide tossing grenades backwards after cooking as he approaches. But even then that's not a real answer to fair and won't really help you negate that much pressure over the course of the match. You can backwards nade shield to fight off some of the pressure but the amount of time before you can shield before taking out a nade makes it's visibly obvious when you're trying to do this...

People HEAVILY overestimate how well Utilt covers just in front of and above snake. The hitbox isn't out for very long which means countering characters with it requires exact timing every single time and whiffing it once means you get juggled.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Honestly, I used to try to abuse U-Tilt against Fair and while it did work to an extent the trade off of staling our staple kill move to deter an abused approach isn't worth it when you have to be almost exact like RedHalberd says. I try to just back away and reset the situation and create openings with Grenades in a similar way. But I've honestly found well place Dash attacks to be a lot more useful.

Also somewhat unrelated question:

What criteria does one need to become a member of the Snake Back Room

 

[DMG]

You must be solid

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just a quick question, this is merely the BBR thread posted in public right?

What criteria does one need to become a member of the Snake Back Room

You must be solid

Body composition made of metal would be preferred as well.