BBR's Match-up Chart for Mario

[HeroMystic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12270212&postcount=327

As a recommendation from the offical match-up chart thread, I decided to make this a thread instead of discussing it in the social thread.


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Legend
0: Even (Very very small advantages also apply here)
1: Small advantage (Noteworthy advantage but decently easy to work around)
2: Medium Advantage/Counterpick (Takes effort from the lesser character, but not a full shutdown)
3: Heavy Advantage/Hard Counterpick (Shuts down the character, little options available)
4: Unwinnable ( )

---
Noteworthy posts from the official thread:

Why MK is -2.
BBR agrees MK should be -3.
Mario panel lacked representation.

 

[Matador]

I'm surprised they went for Mario vs Diddy being even.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Why is wolf and PT -2?

 

[HeroMystic]

Me too. Personally I think it's -1 purely because of he handles bananas better than Mario can, definitely a small advantage though.

Nick-picky time
-MK has been said before, but should be -3.
-G&W is not -3. Even -1 is arguable, but I'm completely comfortable with -2.
-I feel Wario and Wolf are -1.
-WTF @ PKMN Trainer.
-Diddy should be -1.
-I feel we have an advantage on Yoshi and Bowser but I don't have any criteria to back it up.
-Link should be +2. I dunno about Falcon.

PT is waaaaaay off, but I'd like to see the reasoning behind this.

 

[Matador]

Agreed with all of that...

Adding on:

Peach should be -1. I can live with where she is, but I don't completely agree.

We beat Samus +1. Xyro and Noid would attest to this.

Marth should be -2 with along with G&W. I think MK should be alone on -3 but you can make an argument for D3 sharing that spot with him. It just should be clear that MK and D3 (maybe) are a step above the rest in difficulty.

ROB, Pit, DK and Sheik should be even. ROB and Pit should definitely move. Sheik and DK can be legitimately argued for their spots tho.

We're -1 with Lucas. I think Luigi too, but definitely Lucas. We can't take advantage of his weaknesses.

 

[HeroMystic]

Isn't Shiek -1 because of her needles?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

// -3
// -2 to -3
// -1 to -2
// -1
// -1 to 0
// 0
// 0 to +1
// +1
// +2

My opinions, strictly subjective.

 

[Matador]

Isn't Shiek -1 because of her needles?

Weak *** excuse, imo.

Maybe for gimping, but I don't see any other reasoning for why it'd change a match-up so much.

 

[Juushichi]

I've played both sides of the Sheik MU before. I think it's even or -1. I mean Tutu pooped on my Mario but against any other Sheik not named Judo (haven't played) I've done well.

R.O.B. is -1. Yoshi is +1 or 0. Literally the only thing he has over us is slightly more mobility. We do more to him holding our ground than they do to us being mobile.

GnW is weird. I got thrashed by Today's GnW which did mostly double bair+dair+up-b which was really stupid but made mental mistakes that blew a (in my mind) probable 2-1 against Lou (pools though) back in Cincinnati in Jan.

If the GnW plays as gay as possible, it's -2. A RC CP guarantees at least one win for GnW plain and simple. But we can beat him on FD, SV and maybe PS1. I wouldnt take GW to my favorites, Brinstar and Halberd or Battlefield.

DK, Pit are even. We are -1 against Pika and Diddy. I would agree at Marth, MK and maybe D3 at -3 though I've beaten mains of these characters in friendlies before with Mario. Tournament, I go Sheik for all of them.

 

[HeroMystic]

Pierce's analysis on vs Marth:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12271191&postcount=405

 

[2fast]

This list is some ****.

MK should be -3.

Marth should be -2.

PT wtf? You should be 0. Maybe even 1.

Put DK at 1. Though I can live with 0.

Yoshi should be moved to 1.

I'd move bowser to 1 but I haven't fought a really good bowser yet so idk.

**** this list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pierce's analysis on vs Marth:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12271191&postcount=405

I'll show him wrong

 

[Kanzaki]

Marth should be -2 or -1. What Pierce is missing is that Marth is a WHOLE lot easier to gimp compared to Metaknight.

Metaknight should be -3. According to Metaknight boards, they should be -2 to us since they don't beat us as badly as other characters. That's gotta be one of the most stupid logic I've ever heard/seen. Fact is, they still beat us pretty badly...

Wolf should be -1 or 0... VERY easy to combo, and his recovery is lawl-worthy. I've beaten Wolf players in tourney before, and TBH.. I don't really know what Wolf has over Mario.. maybe his Bair? I don't know.

Game and Watch should be -2. I personally suck against Game and Watch, and his priority completely destroys us.. however, a lot of his moves are slow where as Mario's is fast. If the Mario is fast enough, Game and Watch shouldn't be able to do much.

Donkey Kong should be 0.. We have advantages over him, he has advantages over us.. So they pretty much cancel out?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

-3
-2
-1
0
+1
+2
+9000 ichu:

imo.

 

[Fire!]

So are these matchups based on the average results of the characters or each character playing at their peak current metagame?

 

[HeroMystic]

So are these matchups based on the average results of the characters or each character playing at their peak current metagame?

The latter. Keep in mind though the Mario representation was very poor, if it even existed.

Marth should be -2 or -1. What Pierce is missing is that Marth is a WHOLE lot easier to gimp compared to Metaknight.

While this is true I don't think it gives much impact when Marth's on-stage applications towers over ours.

 

[A2ZOMG]

-3:
-2:
-1.5:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Important comments:

Falco is harder than Marth and G&W on neutrals, Halberd, Pictochat, and Frigate. He's also harder than Marth on Rainbow Cruise. He DOES lose to Mario on Brinstar though. He is the hardest character in the game for Mario to combo, and the 2nd hardest character in the game for Mario to beat on the ground (Metaknight is the hardest).

Marth and G&W dominate Mario for the exact same reasons. Superior F-airs and D-tilts, and no truly outstanding CP options against them. Marth has stronger edgetrapping. G&W is more durable.

ROB is definitely not in Mario's favor and almost certainly not even. The only way Mario has the advantage is by camping after catching the Gyro. Outside of that ROB's ground game is better than Mario's and a pain to get past. He does not technically have trouble killing Mario. He just kills later.

Wario might be like... -.5 in his favor, but it's definitely a close matchup and CPable.

The Ice Climbers are probably -.5 in their favor. Same as Wario though, it's close and CPable.

I don't think Mario actually wins against Jiggs. If she camps on a lead, it's really annoying to get in on her. She also CPs better than Mario does.

Mario does beat Bowser as convincingly as he beats Ganon. The key part about beating Bowser is comboing him, getting him to 100%, and never letting him get back on his feet after that. It's entirely possible to do given he has the worst ledge options in the game past 100%, on top of the fact that Mario can do really silly things to Bowser's recovery and landing options (wait what? Bowser doesn't have landing options lol). Bowser is just a bad character who has extremely limited options and next to no ways of regaining lost momentum.

 

[SKidd]

I agree with A2Z's views, other than Wario being even - he should be a -1.5 IMO.


... And Sheik/ZeldaSheik should be a 0.


Also Marth should be -2 and Falco should be -1.5. And Olimar should be a -1. AND Snake is -2.



...



And Ike should be even.

 

[Kanzaki]

Do we really have to be THAT board who brings in the "point fives" -.-

Only reason I don't feel Marth is -3 is due to the fact that we can gimp him easily, and we can force him to approach with our fireballs. True he could potentially dominate us middle of the stage, but why goto the middle of the stage when we can make him come to us with fireballs? True he can fair/nair through the fireballs, but fact is, he's approaching us now, and we can take advantage of that by trying to get him off the stage in attempt of a gimp.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you're that picky, then I'll put Marth and G&W as -2s, but DDD and Falco are clearly harder than them. And Marth and G&W are clearly better against Mario than Snake, Pikachu, ROB, other dudes.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd just put them as -2. Keep in mind the intervals are made at a broader perspective, and we really shouldn't be comparing difficulty levels per MU. That's how the Metaknight panel screwed up and we got -2 vs MK.

I also agree with Kanzaki that .5's aren't necessary.

 

[Matt07]

@A2ZOMG - I feel Bowser vs Mario is even, I definitely believe he has the tools to deal with Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Basically this.


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Uh, I don't see how Bowser actually dominates Mario toolwise from neutral position. He can be annoying and his F-tilt is a wall with average utility (and worse than DK's F-tilt, both of which are quite whiff punishable). His Up-B merely requires Mario to not be stupid about SH spacing. Mario however combos the **** out of Bowser and edgeguards and juggles him much harder than the other way around. Bowser literally cannot do anything against anyone once he's offstage and over 100%.

Disregarding the fact that Mario controls the pace better, he gets a TON more reward for it. Easily a big advantage matchup for Mario. Bowser is just terrible and loses to almost everyone. Including Ganon.

EDIT: Yoshi is +1 Mario's favor.

 

[SKidd]

Yoshi is even. Tsk.



... After rethinking it, I agree with everything but Yoshi being in Mario's favor and sheik/zeldasheik being in their favor.

 

[2fast]

I approve your list A2Z. You even put yoshi at 1 which makes me very happy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

wtf Mario definitely beats Yoshi. Your aerials are better than his and win in terms of damage and priority in most direct exchanges (if you're having trouble with Yoshi's air game, get better at spacing), as well as the fact Yoshi's aerials are generally not very safe for approaching (angle shield better if you're getting poked a lot). You have better kill moves (faster, safer, and more powerful). Fireballs and AutoJabbing limit his defense options significantly, and generally speaking it should not be hard for Mario to approach Yoshi as long as he's not trying to force huge combos.

And Sheik does beat Mario. Slightly, but noticeably. She just has significantly better spacing and ground options than you do. It's not much unlike fighting Pikachu, although Pikachu has a slightly easier time killing. Sheik's aerials are harder for Mario to deal with than Pikachu's, though her recovery is a bit more punishable (though you're probably not going to gimp it often at all).

 

[HeroMystic]

Interesting how everyone is putting vs Wario as 0.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario probably does lose to him slightly, but he's nowhere nearly as hard as the matchups that actually are -1.

 

[Matt07]

I've never really fought too many Wario's so I can't give my insight. I remember a while ago I thought I found we had a Grab Release-U-Smash on him? I don't know if it's actually legit though...

 

[A2ZOMG]

We can't force an air release on Wario though...if we could (or if we killed him earlier, which Brinstar accomplishes), the matchup would be 55/45 Mario.,

 

[HeroMystic]

I always figured due to the low margin of error Mario has vs Wario (because a hit from Wario is similar to a hit from Snake), as well as his good spacing, S-tier recovery, and weight, he'd be a -1 even though Mario is fully capable of going even with him, statistics aside.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You have far less margin of error against Snake than you do against Wario. Snake kills you earlier and has a slightly easier time punishing silly mistakes that in theory you shouldn't be making, but will probably make due to bull****.

At the same time...killing Wario is technically more difficult. But dealing a **** ton of damage to him is EASY. Like imo it's just gonna happen that way. You're going to hit Wario a lot more than he can hit you if you understand how to play the matchup. Just the only problem is legitimately outplaying him for the kill.

The good news is...he also has to legitimately outplay you to land a kill, but it's a bit harder for Mario to really punish Wario for throwing out a kill move than the other way around.

Except on Brinstar, Mario just wins by dealing massive damage and letting the stage do the rest of the work for him.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I don't see why A2 thinks Bowser is -2 either...
Bowser is a better character than Mario, imo.

 

[HeroMystic]

If Bowser had a better grab range he'd be way better than Mario, but his range is pitiful and alot of his moves are punishable. While Mario can't take full advantage of this at times, a lot of characters can. Doesn't help he's juggle fodder either.

 

[Kanzaki]

It's cause A2Z's friends don't know how to play Bowser, either that, or he sucks at using Bowser himself.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see why A2 thinks Bowser is -2 either...
Bowser is a better character than Mario, imo.

No, Mario is better than Bowser easily.

Bowser has no recovery, no landing options, and especially after he hits 100% (which you will easily get him to by comboing and juggling him), he has no ledge options.

A Bowser offstage at 100% is a dead Bowser against anyone who knows the matchup intimately. I mean anyone. It's as bad as getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers. Yes you might technically have to get him to 150% to kill him. Doesn't matter if you need to get him to 200% or even 300%. Bowser over 100% and offstage is the playable version of Sandbag. You just beat him up for free and knock him away once you're done having fun. His weight does nothing to increase his durability. It only makes him easier to combo to 100%, which is when he's free after getting put offstage.

Bowser is just extremely bad in general. Like Ganon status bad, and even loses to Ganon himself. He's only slightly better than Ganon because he loses less horribly in a few matchups that matter.

My Bowser is actually not bad, given that I kinda get how to play him from using tactics that work with Ganon. I just think most people don't know the matchup and just are bad at edgeguarding and edgetrapping correctly. It really depresses me when I'm not getting gimped and juggled consistently when using Bowser, because it just tells me that my opponent sucks against Bowser.

 

[Juushichi]

No, I believe that Bowser beats us, but not by much. This may just be me being worse than Fizzle (he is a DDD main, but used to main Bowser and still plays him in matches - regardless, I play him in matches every tournament). He's not fast, but his tilts and aerials control a lot of space where Mario can't really do much. I will admit though, getting him past 100 on the ledge pretty much means a free stock. It's just getting to that point.

Wario is -1 as well. I've done well against Blue Rouge and Krystedez, but I still feel that we lose this matchup. We can do everything except for regularly kill him and that's the matchup. Getting a gimp isn't entirely unreasonable on Wario though, I don't think.

 

[Juushichi]

Double post, I don't think Ike is even. That matchup is stupid. But I also don't know it.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

all this time i thought my controller was broken because every once in awhile none of my buttons would do anything

turns out i was just offstage as bowser above 100%, duh

p.s. im pretty much only posting here so my subscriptions can let me know when a2z does yet another over the top anti-bowser rant

p.p.s. what does lucas have that makes the matchup harder for mario than ness

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, I believe that Bowser beats us, but not by much. This may just be me being worse than Fizzle (he is a DDD main, but used to main Bowser and still plays him in matches - regardless, I play him in matches every tournament). He's not fast, but his tilts and aerials control a lot of space where Mario can't really do much. I will admit though, getting him past 100 on the ledge pretty much means a free stock. It's just getting to that point.

Like, I don't get how Bowser stops Mario from just spacing fullhop B-airs really well, and then shield poking with fireballs. Practically any time you see Bowser jump towards you you can also Up-B him on reaction, or if you have balls, crouch the rising aerial and U-tilt him. F-tilt is unsafe enough on block that you can reverse F-smash it out of shield with good timing. Plus, I don't really think it's hard for Mario to grab Bowser, which is an easy way of putting Bowser in a horrible position where it's easy for Bowser to get comboed.

Wario is -1 as well. I've done well against Blue Rouge and Krystedez, but I still feel that we lose this matchup. We can do everything except for regularly kill him and that's the matchup. Getting a gimp isn't entirely unreasonable on Wario though, I don't think.

I don't think Wario is nearly as hard as Snake basically. Thus I can't see it being -1. I think we lose really slightly on most stages, and clearly wipe the floor with him on Brinstar.

Mario however goes gimp Wario really well, but primarily if Wario needs to recover low for any reason.