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Best of each move

wisl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
283
Location
Leuven, Belgium
I said that because it seems so useful to me :s
it's really fast, it stuns, it combos, it's anti shieldgrab... and yeah it's also strong... ganons use it all the time.
what would you put up for best jab?
 

Walgreens Pharmacist

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
117
Location
In Your Fridge, Drinking Your Milk
I think Wallgreen's list is a tad in doc's favor
Ness has good throws, and mewtwo's upthrow is great
I had doc as 2 of them, and evenone of those I couldn't decide between doc or peach.

Even though peaches has more priority, i like the secks kick that gets stronger the longer it's out. (N-Air)

And isn't Pika's up smash better than fox's in terms of killing power?
 

Sybawave

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
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728
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Friendswood, Texas
Yes it is but we are talking about the best moves not so much the strongest otherwise Neutral B would've been Warlock Punch...but it's not...'cause the best is Falcon Punch so there...

Dr. Mario's Nair is too hard to use to be that good
 

Aussierob123

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
2,033
Location
Gold Coast - Australia
Yes it is but we are talking about the best moves not so much the strongest otherwise Neutral B would've been Warlock Punch...but it's not...'cause the best is Falcon Punch so there...

Dr. Mario's Nair is too hard to use to be that good
No, he's right, there's a big difference about picking for example falco's neutral B over a warlock / falcon punch... the punches just really aren't that useful in many situations.

It makes alot more sense to have pika's Usmash rather than fox's. What good is an usmash besides KO'ing? barely any characters Usmash lead into any other sort of combo, besides maybe falcons, and these two smashes have fairly decent range, etc.

Edit: and yes, Ness's bthrow is very good.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Counting Sheik and Zelda as different characters...

So no Zelda Down B joke.

Jab - Ganon
Jab Combo - Falcon? Most of these suck. The Gentleman is probably the most practical.
Jab Rapid Combo - Kirby

F-Tilt - Sheik
U-Tilt - Marth
D-Tilt - Roy / Sheik

Dash Attack - Sheik

F-Smash - Marth / Mario
U-Smash - Fox
D-Smash - Peach

N-Air - Link
B-Air - Sheik
F-Air - Marth
D-Air - Falco
U-Air - Sheik / Donkey Kong

Neutral B - Falco
Down B - Fox / Jigglypuff
Up B - Bowser
Side B - Jigglypuff / Doc

Grab - Marth
Dash Grab - Sheik
Grab Attack - Peach
U-Throw - Fox
B-Throw - Ness
F-Throw - DK Cargo Throws (All of them; notably Cargo U-Throw)
D-Throw - Ganon

Ledge Attack <100 - Bowser
Ledge Attack >100 - No idea

Nurgle.

Ganon's D-throw is better than Sheik's, in that in chain grabs roughly the same characters, but also adds Fox and Falco to that (and I think it chain grabs Sheik higher than she can to herself). Sheik's Grabs are easier to get because of her superior Grab range, but for the actual throw Ganon has a better one.

Roy's D-tilt is very, very stupid. The reason it's not super broken is because, basically, it's on Roy. Give that to Marth and all of a sudden his ground combo starters have a spammable, nearly unpunishable move with brokenly good IASA, that lead into his lovely tipped Fair, his spike, and F-smash, and his grab (the grab is notable for space animals; D-tilt --> Chain Grab anyone?). Stick that on basically any good character and it's an awesome combo starter with super IASA and range. Because it's Roy it doesn't look that good, but in reality it's actually really good.

What would make someone have a better D-tilt, basically, is the speed difference. Because it comes out frame 8, which is somewhat late (1 frame later than Marth, 3 later than Sheik). I think the combo power and range makes it stupid enough to be better, but Sheik's would be a very good contestant simply on the grounds of speed.

Mario's F-smash is very, very good. Mario just happens to suck. Marth's might be (read: probably is) better but I think on a character who could lead into F-smash, I would ideally want Mario's simply because of the better consistency for results and comboing (18% with high consistency, good knockback, easy to ledgedash into for edgeguarding Sheik, etc). And it's mostly a combo finisher and edgeguard anyways. Marth's still is probably better because of the better speed and range though.

Dair is a no-brainer. Falco is gay.

Rest vs Shine is difficult because one kills you instantly and IMHO is much better in human play. Jigglypuff lacks outlets to combo into Rest beyond Shield, U-tilt, U-air, Nair, Dair, Pound, U-throw, and tech chasing. However, of those however many listed, none of them (aside from tech chase and OoS) are particularly reliable. U-throw Rest is DIable. Pound, Dair, Nair, Uair, U-tilt are all DIable. Imagine, though, Rest on a fast character. With methods to set up Rest that were inescapable. Horrifying. Absolutely horrifying. Sheik with Rest destroys every character in the game without breaking a sweat. Or a stock. Grab Fox once, D-throw him, tech chase him properly with reaction time, and he dies. Fox with U-throw Rest defeats most characters after 5 lasers and a grab.

Shine is more versatile. Undeniably. But Rest... is better because of human error. If we were to discuss infinite potential then Shine eviscerates everything but so long as there is error... one hit kill, one frame, best combo finisher, best tech chase if possible, best move out of shield except maybe Bowser's Up+B, etc.

Bowser has the best Up+B. No real debate. Fortress-Shielding is so incredibly stupid it basically forces you to camp Bowser if you don't have more range. Combined with ledge stalling and whatnot it becomes really freaking stupid.

Peach's D-smash is stupid and good. I used to think Sheik's was better, because of the range, but lately I think Peach's shield-stab power and multi-hit and how awkward it makes you play against some of her pressure makes it the better move. I could be wrong but oh well if I am then I guess I quit life? Meh. The range difference doesn't seem to do much either lately, because people keep shield DIing my D-smashes and punishing me afterwards unless they're like... Falcon... so yeah.

U-tilt and F-tilt didn't take any thinking. And they really shouldn't.

F-Air goes to Marth because it's stupid.

N-Air is Link's because it's stupid and has broken IASA and priority and combos into stupid stuff and has the super non-commitment because of how its hitbox and IASA work.

Sheik has the best U-Air. Her or DK, at any rate, but probably Sheik. It has more knockback than DK's I think, in exchange for 1% and autocancel, but I think Sheik takes it because of the killing power; it's close though. Fox's is not the best because you can SDI it. Sheik's only looks not super broken comparatively because she doesn't have Fox's broken U-throw setup. If you gave Fox Sheik's inescapable U-Air he would be considerably gayer.

Bair is either Fox, Falco, Sheik. I personally think it's Sheik. Not much else to see here. I think Sheik takes it from range but the sex kick properties of Fox / Falco's Bair are very desirable. Then again, Sheik's knockback is also easily controlled and it's very good for gimping too so it's a preference call I think.

Side B I stuck Puff here because with it she has the best recovery in the game. And sometimes it breaks shields, combos into stupidity, and does other stuff. Doc's cape is also very notable because of gimping power. Side Bs on the whole are mediocre; if there's someone I missed that's secretly got a great Side B tell me but the runners-up to those two were like Samus missiles, Mario Cape, and Raptor Boost. Since Raptor Boost is super punishable, Mario Cape is inferior to Doc Cape except for recovery, and Samus missiles aren't great as a projectile anyways, I gave it to Puff for best recovery and Doc for stupid gimping power and ultimate Rest punish setup.

U-Smash is Fox because of the speed difference with Pikachu's. It comes out faster. Has less lag. Harder to punish when spaced. Other useful stuff.

Ganon's Jab is dumb and knocks over into tech chases and stuff. It could be Sheik's or Marth's (Marth for gimping, Sheik for stuff) or something but I think Ganon takes it. Jabs are situational. You could argue Jigglypuff or Kirby because they let forced wake-up --> stupid stuff combos happen to higher percents because they're so weak and make a good case probably. Pikachu's infinites against walls. But for general purpose I think Ganon has the best.

I don't remember if Ness's B-throw is stronger than Mewtwo's. I think it is, but I could be wrong.

DK has the best "F-Throw" with his Cargo Throw stance. For a real F-throw it's probably Marth.

U-Throw is probably Fox because of easy follows. If we count Cargo Throws then it's DK's. For easier follows.

Sheik's Dash Attack is one of the dumbest moves in the game.

I think for Jab combos (like Mario's) the Gentleman takes it for practical application. Jabs are somewhat of a touchy subject though and most of them suck or are generally situational.

Falco's gun is super amazing. Laser to grab on a character who can combo and kill from grab would be stupidly broken. Runner up was Fox's gun because of the camping and chip damage power. Lasers are really unbelievably gay. After that it was needles probably, very likely, and after that I didn't care because neutral Bs tend to be crap projectiles.
 

Requiem

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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WHAT IS THIS PLACE
Jab: Peach
Ugrab: marth
Fgrab: DK
Bgrab: Ness
Dgrab: Falcon
B: falco
ForeB: Falcon
UpB: Marth
DownB: Jigglypuff
Fsmash: Marth
Usmash: Pikachu
Dsmash: Peach
Fair: Falcon
Nair: Fox
Dair: marth
Uair: Fox
Bait: Ganondorf
Ftilt: Shiek
Dtilt: Roy
Utilt: Marth
jabcombo: Falcon
Dashatack DR.mario o_O;

I begin to feel the weird urge to draw this character.

This is a legendary thread now o:
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
Jab - ICs
F-tilt - Sheik
D-tilt - Mewtwo/Roy
U-tilt - Marth
Dash attack - Sheik

F-smash - Marth
D-smash - Peach
U-smash - Fox

N-air - Luigi/Link
F-air - Falcon/Marth
B-air - DK
D-air - Falco
U-air - Sheik/DK

B - Falco
Side B - Jigglypuff (Samus?)
Down B - Jigglypuff/Fox
Up B - Link

F-throw - DK
B-throw - Mewtwo
D-throw - Ganon
U-throw - Fox

IC's jab is amazing. Like most jabs, CCing counters it, but it can easily lead into a grab or d-smash and is harder than either to punish. It probably wouldn't work as well without Nana, in which case I'd give it to Sheik.

Luigi escapes every combo ever with his n-air.

Fortress is a fantastic move, but skraaah is more versatile, enabling gimps and an actual recovery.

If this was supposed to be the perfect character, this list would probably look slightly different. For example, Falco's shine might be better in conjunction with his d-air and Sheik or DK's u-air.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
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Spiral Mountain
Luigi escapes combos by Nair because he takes no stun from anything and the moon from super floaty action.

If he had no Nair he'd do it with Bair and it would still work just like you want it to only there wouldn't be an automatic **** combo following it. Nor would it have the gay kill power at high percent.

His Nair is very good though. I'm surprised I forgot about it. Fail.

edit: Knee is so overrated.
 

MarkLoo

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
613
Location
West Bloomfield, MI
Stop using Brawl terms XD

They were both 1 Frame kill moves which is why I couldn't decide between Fox and Jiggs lol
but if I had to choose then it would be Fox

And don't do throws...those are WAY to dependent on the character and what the purpose of it is
zair isn't a brawl term.
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
Hey Pika's uair might be too good though.
I main marth and pikachu, and I'm pretty sure marth's is more useful/better overall. Uair > tippered fmash on spacies is too good. Although, I was playing a friendly at a tournament a couple days ago, and I killed a fox from the CENTER of dreamland 64 with an uair pseudospike at around 90%. He just barely missed the edge, and fell off completely helpless. You should have seen his face. Pika's uair is probably second best... But ganon's is amazing as well (good range, the end can kinda spike as well). There are lots of amazing uairs though. DK wins I think because of the combos. Maybe sheik.

KirbyKaze, could you explain a few of your descisions a bit better, particularly:

how is link's nair is better than samus's
how is sheik's bair better than zelda's? Zelda's bair (and her fair which is the same thing, but there are better fairs) is very fast with good range and killing power. Faster, longer reaching, and just as powerful as the knee.
 

B0mbe1c

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
1,330
Location
Maryland
I know Roy's does 20% freshly uncharged. What about Martha?
Dtilt is for Roy, I say Ganon for jab. And Samus for Nair.-

I also say Luigi for best WD. :D
 

Weimdog

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
241
Location
Chicago, IL
You are all forgetting the best taunt category. Not that there's anything to decide really.
Same for best victory celebration.
 

MarkLoo

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
613
Location
West Bloomfield, MI
I main marth and pikachu, and I'm pretty sure marth's is more useful/better overall. Uair > tippered fmash on spacies is too good. Although, I was playing a friendly at a tournament a couple days ago, and I killed a fox from the CENTER of dreamland 64 with an uair pseudospike at around 90%. He just barely missed the edge, and fell off completely helpless. You should have seen his face. Pika's uair is probably second best... But ganon's is amazing as well (good range, the end can kinda spike as well). There are lots of amazing uairs though. DK wins I think because of the combos. Maybe sheik.

KirbyKaze, could you explain a few of your descisions a bit better, particularly:

how is link's nair is better than samus's
how is sheik's bair better than zelda's? Zelda's bair (and her fair which is the same thing, but there are better fairs) is very fast with good range and killing power. Faster, longer reaching, and just as powerful as the knee.
agree with rest of your post, but zelda's bair =/= fair. It's faster and less powerful.
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
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Canton, Ohio
they're practically the same thing. They are useful for the same purpose in the same situations and have very similar hitboxes. I didn't really realize there was a difference though. I haven't really taken much of an interest in zelda frame data, you can't really blame me, lol.
 

Sybawave

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
728
Location
Friendswood, Texas
WHAT THE H311 XD What are you talking about Usmash doesn't lead into a combo?

Generic Uthrow 2xUsmash

and then if you don't like that there is always the WOMBO COMBO
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
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Spiral Mountain
how is link's nair is better than samus's
how is sheik's bair better than zelda's? Zelda's bair (and her fair which is the same thing, but there are better fairs) is very fast with good range and killing power. Faster, longer reaching, and just as powerful as the knee.
Samus has better range, but Link's has the super non-committal power. I think the IASA properties give it more versatility as a move, and some broken setups. I mean, FJ Nair --> Nair with Link is already fairly good, and he never has to commit out of Nair because he can just double jump back. Now if he had more fast, ranged, usable aerials like say Falco's Dair or Sheik's Fair or Marth's Uair...

Non-committal move that leads to broken setups is always awesome. Because if worst comes to worst, you can just double jump backwards and waveland away or something. I think having a ridiculously slanted risk-reward is a really good trait of a move.

Samus's sex kick, conversely, is basically just a sex kick. It is extremely good, but most of what makes it good is that she takes no stun from anything and her sex kick has very, very good range for a sex kick.

If we're just looking at the moves individually, or on bad characters who have limited good moves, Samus's is probably better. On a good character, however, I would rather have Link's.

I think Sheik's Bair is better overall because of how the weak hit works for gimping people. Its long duration also makes it very, very good for gimps. For raw power Zelda's Bair is very good and it's probably one of the best in the game, especially for killing (and it's disjointed a bit, so it has lovely monster priority too), I just think Sheik's is better overall because it can also gimp with super awesome ridiculousness and is more flexible as a move.
 

Geist

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
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4,893
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Menswear section
Most of the best moves belong to sheik. :[
alot of people just like to post what move has the highest killing power lol. I'd say sheik's bair is better than Zelda's, mostly because you have **** edgeguarding options with her bair.

I'd also have to say sheik gets the award for best neutral B. I've had many more nightmares about needles than lasers.

Kirbykaze is right about links nair guys, it's broken.
 
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