Best Players of All Time

[caLviN-1260]

So I'd like to see some opinions on who people think are the top 10 best Melee players of all time.

Consider each player at their peak ability and then write out your top 10. I know that some players like Ken would never have gotten to play the newer players of today, but attempt to complete the top 10 to the best of your ability. I personally don't know many of the current hot shots in Melee, so I won't make my own, but I'd like to see what you guys think.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Everyone in the documentary + PP, Armada, Hbox

/thread

 

[Genshien]

Everyone in the documentary + PP, Armada, Hbox

/thread

Pretty much this.

 

[Ezzee]

Everyone in the documentary + PP, Armada, Hbox

/thread

Well, are they really? Sure players like Azen and Ken were dominant during their time, but how would they be able to compete in today's metagame, even if they decided to start training again. Could they stand up to even players like Hax, Shroomed, PPU and Ice. Of course, if were talking about how good they were when they played, then yes, people in the Doc + those 3

 

[Habefiet]

Based on peak absolute ability, it's whoever you feel the top ten players over the last year or two are. This is not really debatable. Be honest with yourselves here people, the peak skill in 2006-2007 was not as high as the peak skill of today.

Based on peak relative ability, some ordering of Ken, M2K, Mango, and Armada and after that who even cares lol those are the four dudes that monstered the universe for a sufficiently long time by a sufficiently convincing margin to be confidently declared the best by a common consensus and following that it's extremely subjective and contingent largely on which players you personally like better.

 

[caLviN-1260]

It seems to me, from the documentary, that when Isai was playing at his ABSOLUTE best, he might be the best player of all time. Of the current few people I know that plays, Ice seems pretty good as well.

I do have a question that I was hoping someone could answer. Before I got into this one player I heard a lot about was Neo, and he was mentioned in the documentary a couple times as well. How good is he considered to be?

 

[Tarv]

Neo was and likely still is the greatest Roy main ever.

Also it's really difficult to compare players from different eras so any list is going to have somewhat arbitrary ratings. It really depends on how the players are being judged. If it's just in terms of pure skill the top ten is going to be vastly different than a top based on their relative dominance (win/loss) ratio during their time. No doubt Ken, M2k, Mango and Armada are the gods of melee having periods of time where they just destroyed everyone else but because of changes in the meta Ken might not be on a list based just off of skill while a player like Isai might not be on a list based of wins. However I don't think anyone is going to doubt that Isai was an extremely skilled player during his time and deserves to be on any top ten listing

All that being I think there needs to be a clearer definition of what we're actually ranking when we make a list of the top ten greatest players of all-time. Perhaps something that combines their general dominance during their peak years, consistency/longevity, and relative skill level. Even then the list is going to be extremely subjective.

 

[caLviN-1260]

All that being I think there needs to be a clearer definition of what we're actually ranking when we make a list of the top ten greatest players of all-time. Perhaps something that combines their general dominance during their peak years, consistency/longevity, and relative skill level. Even then the list is going to be extremely subjective.

Perhaps is we took all those factors into account and made some sort of... player tier list for fun. I recall Wife making something like that in 2006, and it would be interesting if the community made an up to date one.

Armada was never a big part of the documentary, so I don't know a lot about him. During what years was he dominant?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Armada's been considered top 5 in the world since 2009 or so. He was one stock away from beating Mango at Genesis, which was his first US tournament. His record low in the US was at Pound 4 where he got like 5th or something due to being sent into losers extremely early by Silentspectre. 2nd place at Apex 2010, 2nd at Pound V and then finally taking 1st at w/e national was after those thanks to his new young link. This is all off the top of my head so srry if inaccurate.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Also I know you said to consider everyone at their peak, but I don't think it's fair to compare older top players to the current ones. If the list was made that way, it wouldn't include any of the older veterans who appeared on the documentary( so just m2k and mango would be in it). The list I submitted took into account the innovations they brought to the game and the length of dominance they had while playing.

srry for double post

 

[caLviN-1260]

Do you honestly feel that the older players could not compete in the newer meta? Like would Ken for example not be as strong against today's top players?

 

[Habefiet]

Do you honestly feel that the older players could not compete in the newer meta? Like would Ken for example not be as strong against today's top players?

Peak skill now is higher than it was then, yes. That's what he's saying and that's what I'm saying and I believe most people will agree.

Armada wasn't heavily featured in the doc because the doc primarily focused on the key players in the rise and fall of the MLG era and the immediate post-MLG era then pretty much skipped to now. It was much more about the OGs than the modern game. If the doc were purely focused on "best players of all time" or had a narrative that covered the post-MLG grassroots era in greater detail, Armada would certainly have merited his own episode.

Armada's record in the United States, starting with his first appearance:

2nd at Genesis (July 2009)
4th at Pound IV
2nd at Apex 2010
2nd at Pound V (February 2011) Armada's last failure to win any tournament for over two years
1st at Genesis 2 (July 2011)
1st at Apex 2012
1st at Apex 2013 (January 2013) Shortly followed by retirement from singles
4th at Evolution 2013 (July 2013) Post-retirement on not too much practice

During this period of time he won every tournament he attended in Europe (that may not have been happening quite yet in 2009, my European history isn't great, but certainly by 2010 that was the case).

I highly recommend Grand Finals of Genesis 2, it's only about fifteen minutes long and absolutely excellent

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Do you honestly feel that the older players could not compete in the newer meta? Like would Ken for example not be as strong against today's top players?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMIv8GzQz8

 

[caLviN-1260]

I highly recommend Grand Finals of Genesis 2, it's only about fifteen minutes long and absolutely excellent

He sounds pretty impressive. I'll have to check that match out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMIv8GzQz8

Although this is interesting, I feel that Ken is definitely not playing at the level he was during the MLG era.

 

[Archangel]

Do you honestly feel that the older players could not compete in the newer meta? Like would Ken for example not be as strong against today's top players?

This is a frequent and difficult question to answer because there is a variable.

If said older player's skill are frozen at a particular point in time say....05 06? then the answer is no. Odds are they'd be outclassed by 2013's average or slightly above average players.

If said older player's skill aren't frozen at a particular point in time and they are given the chance to catch up in new knowledge, experience, techskill, and general boost to the speed of the game then the answer is Maybe.

We've seen instances where players have come back in the recent years and they've adjusted but not improved enough to keep pace. Then you've had others(chillen and chu) for example who've come back and seem to be better than ever at times placing as high as top 3 in major events.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Although this is interesting, I feel that Ken is definitely not playing at the level he was during the MLG era.

Probably not, but m2k did take sets off him before he retired anyways. I can't find the specific vid, but there was an instance where M2K beat Isai, Ken and essentially the entire West coast in a crew battle almost single highhandedly.


EDIT: Found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqlstAQeg8 part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-4_uVuWRXw part 2

 

[caLviN-1260]

This is a frequent and difficult question to answer because there is a variable.

If said older player's skill are frozen at a particular point in time say....05 06? then the answer is no. Odds are they'd be outclassed by 2013's average or slightly above average players.

If said older player's skill aren't frozen at a particular point in time and they are given the chance to catch up in new knowledge, experience, techskill, and general boost to the speed of the game then the answer is Maybe.

We've seen instances where players have come back in the recent years and they've adjusted but not improved enough to keep pace. Then you've had others(chillen and chu) for example who've come back and seem to be better than ever at times placing as high as top 3 in major events.

After browsing YouTube I have noticed how some players like Chu seem to have stepped up to the plate in the newer scene. I didn't realize Chillin was still good as well.

Probably not, but m2k did take sets off him before he retired anyways. I can't find the specific vid, but there was an instance where M2K beat Isai, Ken and essentially the entire West coast in a crew battle almost single highhandedly.


EDIT: Found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqlstAQeg8 part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-4_uVuWRXw part 2

How what an amazing couple videos .-. Perhaps I don't give Mew2King the credit he deserves.
What about Korean DJ tho? In the documentary it seemed like KDJ was someone who could consistently beat M2K along with many others. Does he still play?

 

[Tarv]

First off, I feel like the top players from the past could be at the top again if they put in the same level of work, and they had the same level of determination that put them on top in the first place. No I dont think that if they just picked up melee they'd just be great right off the bat but they certainly have the potential to be the best if they want it bad enough in my opinion.


From what I've seen KDJ was the one of the few players that Mew2king didnt just straight up destroy during his (m2k's) peak years from roughly 2007-2009ish. I dont know about beating m2k consistently, from what I know they went back and forth. KDJ is an extremely talented player and was certainly top 3 in the world when he played more. Right now he seems to be getting back into it but only plays locally.

This topic is kind of making me want to start working on a Melee Top 10 show. Like take categories such as this one edit it together with some player interviews and match footage to make something akin to the Top Ten specials that frequent a lot of sports channels. I already have some ideas for lists that I could do but there would be some obvious problems that I have to detour around, plus this idea might be better left to someone more ingrained within the community since I remain an interested observer at best. Hopefully people would be interested though.

 

[Max?]

PC Chris is a close friend of mine, and although he isn't active in the tourney scene, he still plays regularly. He claims that he is currently playing at this best today, but is no longer the best in the world because the rest of the community grew and got better. That said, he's probably still top 5 in Tristate, but our tournament scene is lame, so who cares?

 

[caLviN-1260]

This topic is kind of making me want to start working on a Melee Top 10 show. Like take categories such as this one edit it together with some player interviews and match footage to make something akin to the Top Ten specials that frequent a lot of sports channels. I already have some ideas for lists that I could do but there would be some obvious problems that I have to detour around, plus this idea might be better left to someone more ingrained within the community since I remain an interested observer at best. Hopefully people would be interested though.

I'd really like to see some of that top 10 stuff you want to get going. Could be a lot of fun for the community

PC Chris is a close friend of mine, and although he isn't active in the tourney scene, he still plays regularly. He claims that he is currently playing at this best today, but is no longer the best in the world because the rest of the community grew and got better. That said, he's probably still top 5 in Tristate, but our tournament scene is lame, so who cares?

It would be interesting if some of the other older players consider themselves to be in the same situation. I have no doubt that the older players are fantastically talented, but perhaps some of them like PC Chris can't compete at the level they once did, even if they're better.
btw if MLG comes back you should tell Chris to get in on it

 

[Zoler]

Do you honestly feel that the older players could not compete in the newer meta? Like would Ken for example not be as strong against today's top players?

Top players from today vs top players from 2006 would be destruction.

 

[strawhats]

not sure if i should segway this info into this thread or not, but it's kinda relevant..tafokints is doing this thing where he's compiling a list of active/semiactive players from people who have competed in North America in 2013 at least 1x and is making a top 100 power ranking based off of opinions from a panel of reputable players in the community.(KK, PP, PPU, Hyuga etc.) I think MiOM group page/site has the list of players from 100 to 90 or something like that. You guys should check it out. Obviously based off of tournament results/ first impressions on people like aMSa who live out of country. Of course there amazing players like Amsah, Zgetto, Jeapie, Calle W, Cyr, Tuga etc who did not make the list because they have not played in a U.S. tournament this year.

 

[Mew2King]

apex twice champion/consistency master/Peach-master - Armada
recent-results and best-overall-with-cast and long-time-pro - me
Evo champ and high peak skill when serious - mango
really really good sometimes esp at singles - pp
very consistent - hbox
2nd at evo - wobbles
improving fast but inconsistent - hax

then there's way more than that like from cali like ppu/sfat/lucky/fly/etc there are many good players and a lot of hidden pros but they don't travel as much or not been to as many big tourenys

i beat kdj about 2/3rds of our fox ditto sets, he beat my marth with sheik, then eventually i decided to pick up a great sheik of my own but he retired during the period this was happening. Almost every mlg i would lose to chus ICs and pcs falco cuz i was really bad vs ICs and falco (and kind of still am relative to my other matchups to be honest).

 

[The Real Gamer]

really really good sometimes esp at singles - pp

really good sometimes

sometimes

Shots fired

 

[Clebus]

not sure if i should segway this info into this thread or not, but it's kinda relevant..tafokints is doing this thing where he's compiling a list of active/semiactive players from people who have competed in North America in 2013 at least 1x and is making a top 100 power ranking based off of opinions from a panel of reputable players in the community.(KK, PP, PPU, Hyuga etc.) I think MiOM group page/site has the list of players from 100 to 90 or something like that. You guys should check it out. Obviously based off of tournament results/ first impressions on people like aMSa who live out of country. Of course there amazing players like Amsah, Zgetto, Jeapie, Calle W, Cyr, Tuga etc who did not make the list because they have not played in a U.S. tournament this year.

http://meleeiton.me/2013/12/09/2013-ssbm-player-rankings-91-100/

 

[caLviN-1260]

i beat kdj about 2/3rds of our fox ditto sets, he beat my marth with sheik, then eventually i decided to pick up a great sheik of my own but he retired during the period this was happening. Almost every mlg i would lose to chus ICs and pcs falco cuz i was really bad vs ICs and falco (and kind of still am relative to my other matchups to be honest).

I take it that as of now you're probably the best with everything kind of averaged out, but in a few scenarios you lose the matchup? Like I can't say Chu is better if he can only beat you with one character, because you can probably beat him with a number of characters if he isn't using ICs.

http://meleeiton.me/2013/12/09/2013-ssbm-player-rankings-91-100/

This is interesting, does the list continue? I couldn't find the rest of it

EDIT: Just realized how recently it was made, like yesterday lol. I look forward to reading the rest of it as it's released

 

[Clebus]

iirc, they're releasing 10 a day.

EDIT: Until top 10, then it alternated 3 and 2 a day. Schedule here http://meleeiton.me/2013/12/01/what-is-ssbmrank/?relatedposts_exclude=281

 

[Armada]

During this period of time he won every tournament he attended in Europe (that may not have been happening quite yet in 2009, my European history isn't great, but certainly by 2010 that was the case).

Well just to fill in. Last tournament I didn't won in Europe was in December 2008 when I lost two sets in a row vs Calle W (He beat my Fox since back then he did beat my Peach and my Fox worked overall much better vs him). After that I lost one more set in Europe ever and that was WF vs Zgetto from Smack (April 2009).

After this time I lost vs Calle W I reamained undefeated in Europe
After losing to Zgetto I did not drop a set in singles again.
So I guess that makes it a bit more than 4 years+ without dropping a set in Europe.

But to stay ontopic it is very hard to judge. Players today are better. If they are better for the time being is up for discussion but if someone from 06-07 would play vs someone of the top players today they would lose but that is not strange at all because the game has developed so much in the past few years. But everyone that has climbed the mountain and reached the top have what it takes to become the best, that's a way more important tool than actually being able to press 300 buttons per minute

 

[Mew2King]

Shots fired

it's not really, he's really hit-or-miss with tournaments a lot of the time, take pound5 against Genesis2 for example. It's a wide range of skill gaps between the days based off various factors, and a big range of beating the top of the top pros or losing sets to high level pros

 

[Clebus]

Yeah didn't he lose to you recently?
Only joking

 

[The Real Gamer]

So I guess that makes it a bit more than 4 years+ without dropping a set in Europe.

 

[caLviN-1260]

But to stay ontopic it is very hard to judge. Players today are better. If they are better for the time being is up for discussion but if someone from 06-07 would play vs someone of the top players today they would lose but that is not strange at all because the game has developed so much in the past few years. But everyone that has climbed the mountain and reached the top have what it takes to become the best, that's a way more important tool than actually being able to press 300 buttons per minute

I wish it was possible to see whether or not a person like Ken could succeed in the community like he did if he had started playing in say like, 2010 or 2011 rather than when the game came out. Like as you put it, could he still climb the mountain to be one of the best in this day in the age like he did back in 06 and 07

 

[Clebus]

^ word

9.4char

 

[choknater]

armada's right

it's all about drive

 

[SAUS]

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read that...

 

[caLviN-1260]

Hopefully if MLG turns out well we'll finally get to see the older generation face the new one

 

[Deleted member]

not a chance.

 

[strawhats]

not a chance.

damn, ruining the new guy's hopes and dreams lol.

 

[KrIsP!]

It seems to me, from the documentary, that when Isai was playing at his ABSOLUTE best, he might be the best player of all time. Of the current few people I know that plays, Ice seems pretty good as well.

I do have a question that I was hoping someone could answer. Before I got into this one player I heard a lot about was Neo, and he was mentioned in the documentary a couple times as well. How good is he considered to be?

isai would get wrecked today, he'd have to practice and adapt to the new meta before he could become a threat again but that wouldn't be peak, that would be becoming better. Looking at chu and chillin recently they're doing pretty good today so I would like to see isai or azen take it seriously again but they wouldn't be top ten, not immediately at least.

 

[Scidadle]

cnt w8 5 isaiz EPIC return!!!!11 LELLLL