Big secret muscles

[Attila the Hun]

I'm not sure about vs Pikachu, but I have been able to get the aerial release to up-b on both MK and Marth.

And you can get the footstool on Marth, which puts him in a bad spot, but he can linger/mix up his recovery to get back. The up-b puts Marth in a much worse position than the footstool imo.

So for the upB do you just mash upB right after the air release? Or is there a trick to it?

Whenever I release Marth, MK or Pika, they just release behind me and grab the ledge, like if I grabbed them facing away from the ledge and tried walking them off. Is this cuz I'm in training mode, maybe? Lvl. 9 CPU.

 

[DKwill]

So for the upB do you just mash upB right after the air release? Or is there a trick to it?

Whenever I release Marth, MK or Pika, they just release behind me and grab the ledge, like if I grabbed them facing away from the ledge and tried walking them off. Is this cuz I'm in training mode, maybe? Lvl. 9 CPU.

It's because when you turn around in cargo hold animation, they will always release closer to behind DK. You have to grab them while facing forward! Which means this is a lot more situational than you guys probably thought-- still good though.

Edit: Also, I think this is worth discussing in the DK Social Chat! Everyone join in!

http://xat.com/TheDKCrew?p=0&ss=4

 

[Luigi player]

Pretty sure mk can uair/marth can upb before you can upb them since dk only has a+1 frame advantage after the release.

 

[Myollnir]

Is the footstool guaranteed? Can't they just DJ or footstool you before?

If it's guaranteed, that's definitely game changing.

 

[Tesh]

This doesn't look guaranteed (both characters should have the same 30 frame grab release animation right?), but its a good trap at least. I think it would require some frame perfect double jump+airdodge to avoid getting up b gimped.

 

[DKwill]

This doesn't look guaranteed (both characters should have the same 30 frame grab release animation right?), but its a good trap at least. I think it would require some frame perfect double jump+airdodge to avoid getting up b gimped.

DK gets +1 frame advantage during aerial cargo release. It hasn't been 100% confirmed yet that it's inescapable, but it's quite a good trap nonetheless yes.

 

[Te-Jay]

Testing on PS1. That lip is too good for this. You can poke people under it with up b if you can't land the footstool

 

[waldorf2007]

I've been playing around with this for the last 2 or 3 hours during matches, it's definitely useful. Makes shielding in front of the edge worthwhile, cuz if you guess right on their ledge recovery you get a free 18% or so. I can't seem to get the footstool on falco though. Snake is easy.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I've been playing around with this for the last 2 or 3 hours during matches, it's definitely useful. Makes shielding in front of the edge worthwhile, cuz if you guess right on their ledge recovery you get a free 18% or so. I can't seem to get the footstool on falco though. Snake is easy.

It takes practice, Falco took me 2-3 tries to get.

 

[Cable]

I wish my wii didn't die for I can try practicing this -____-

This tech looks EXTREMELY amazing to use against snake but will it work on other characters who have a faster reaction with their u-air to hit DK tho? Does DK have to be at a certain percent or grab the character in a specific way to just keep walking like that towards the edge?

 

[1PokeMastr]

No Uair is fast enough for it to hit us aside from Mk's frame 2 Uair.

And we have to just walk toward the edge with us already facing toward it.

 

[Luigi player]

Hmm I played around with this just now and it seems frame 3 aerials will hit even through upB. Maybe it just wasn't buffered correctly and I need to learn the timing for it, but dunno... could be kinda difficult/risky lol.
I tried it vs Falcos nair. Footstool is okay but you have to be really precise otherwise the Falco will footstool you... and I guess upB should work if buffered correctly but otherwise Falco could (doublejump-) nair you which wouldn't be the end of the world though...

I also could never footstool Snake he always DIed too far away. I could jump before him but Snake still always got the footstool on me after I jumped since I could never reach him.

UpB works well vs Snake though...

Didn't try on anyone else.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I should clarify that no Aerial slower than frame 2 can hit us before the foot stool.

 

[crifer]

I tested this and... it seems legit on falco and snake.
Appearently some characters automatically grab the ledge like diddy kong :-(
It seems that this does not work against ICs and olimar :-(

 

[Tesh]

I should clarify that no Aerial slower than frame 2 can hit us before the foot stool.

You can't footstool people during startup of moves anyway right? So it doesn't really matter if their hitbox came out, so long as they started the aerial up before you footstool.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

 

[infiniteV115]

If you try to footstool someone while they're doing an attack, you will get a big jump off of their head but they won't go into that tumbling footstool animation, they'll continue doing their attack.

That's the part you were right about. iirc DK gets a 1 frame advantage out of the cargo release on Falco, wouldn't be surprised if it was the same (or even more) on multiple other characters...so Falco can't aerial out of it that's for sure.

 

[Tesh]

footstooling is frame one then?

 

[Neon!]

I know everyone is still hyped about the new DK cargo trick but I have a quick tip against fox.

I'll have to test it more to see what percents it works at but I know it works at 0.
After a dthrow, dk is guaranteed a dtilt that will always trip him fox if its buffered. After the dtilt dk is guaranteed a dash-regrab - dthrow and then can finish with an ftilt. This apparently guaranteed combo does 32%

If anyone can explain why the dtilt always seems to trip fox after the dthrow I would appreciate that haha, I'd also like to see if something similar would work on falco.

 

[Tesh]

^ thats nice, so that regrab would basically be a setup for the cargo gimp right. since the first gr-trip must be a long distance

 

[1PokeMastr]

It doesn't always trip after the D-Throw from 0, or whatever.
I've had instances where it doesn't trip. D-Tilt has a 30% trip rate.

 

[Tesh]

Are you sure? It might be like ZSS ftilt. People in hitstun seem to have a MUCH higher trip rate.

 

[crifer]

we should give a name to the new cargo technique...

"Cargo Ledge Trap"?
cargo air release ledge trap
cargo release whirlwind to death.
...
?

 

[Myollnir]

D-Tilt

Hitbox 0: 8% damage, angle of *, 10/80 knockback, attached to upper right arm, Hand/Normal, 40% trip chance
Hitbox 1: 8% damage, angle of *, 10/80 knockback, attached to lower right arm, Hand/Normal, 40% trip chance
Hitbox 2: 8% damage, angle of *, 10/80 knockback, attached to lower right arm, Hand/Normal, 40% trip chance
Hitbox 3: 8% damage, angle of *, 10/80 knockback, attached to neck, Hand/Normal, 40% trip chance

I think Tesh is right.

So, if you buffer a D-Tilt after landing a D-Tilt (which didn't cause a trip) at very low % with , that's why the opponent trips really often ( >40% )... Am I right?

@Neon : Nice. Does GFSC work after the D-Tilt or no?

On a different note, can chaingrab with a D-Throw at very low %? I often do it, but I don't know if it's guaranteed.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Something else you can do vs. Snake, at least with testing with Lamb:

Grab on BF platform facing inward, cargo walk the inside ledge, when you drop down, dsmash. His moves aren't fast enough to hit out of it. I originally did it with Pit, but it turns out Pit can nair before it comes out, unless I'm doing something wrong. Utilt will trade with the nair though.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Something else you can do vs. Snake, at least with testing with Lamb:

Grab on BF platform facing inward, cargo walk the inside ledge, when you drop down, dsmash. His moves aren't fast enough to hit out of it. I originally did it with Pit, but it turns out Pit can nair before it comes out, unless I'm doing something wrong. Utilt will trade with the nair though.

Snake can shield the Dsmash.
However. Snake, Ike, Bowser, Dk all get hit by Jab/ U-Tilt/ D-Tilt from this.
No one else.
The Dsmash or re grab would be a gimmick if they don't expect it.
Everyone else can avoid this by Shield/ aerial or double jump air dodge.


The CG on Mk is not guaranteed, maybe you have 1-2 regrabs from 0% but From 0-24% we can use a Fresh D-Throw and connect with F-Tilt/ D-Tilt, which is worth more than 2 grabs.

And GFSC works from a trip, but you have to buffer the dash.

 

[Luigi player]

Snake can shield the Dsmash.
However. Snake, Ike, Bowser, Dk all get hit by Jab/ U-Tilt/ D-Tilt from this.
No one else.
The Dsmash or re grab would be a gimmick if they don't expect it.
Everyone else can avoid this by Shield/ aerial or double jump air dodge.


The CG on Mk is not guaranteed, maybe you have 1-2 regrabs from 0% but From 0-24% we can use a Fresh D-Throw and connect with F-Tilt/ D-Tilt, which is worth more than 2 grabs.

And GFSC works from a trip, but you have to buffer the dash.

Bowser can't upB?

Also isn't dtilt frame 6? It would be possible to get a grab then since it comes out on frame 7 and the opponent isn't invincible at the 1st (or more) frame of the spotdodge.

Also I don't really get how this should work. You cargo them from a platform and release them then you both fall on the stage and the opponent is stunned long enough for you to have a ~+6 frame advantage? o_o Hard landing is so laggy, and DK doesn't get it if he does this I guess?

Edit: oh wait grab is frame 8-9 >-<

 

[1PokeMastr]

It's not the hard landing, and I was testing for PS, since it shields on Frame 1, but Bowser can't Up B.

This has to do with their fall speed/ weight/ frame size/ air speed. It depends if they fall faster than Dk, or if they weigh more, and how floaty they are. Since any other character is able to get out of it.
Fox/ Falco/ Shiek/ Link/ Falcon all fall at a fast enough rate where they can Jab/ Shield anything.
D3 falls just fast enough where he gets to PS Jab. =_=

The fall also cancels our Break animation.

On Ness/ Lucas we're actually able to Land a Punch/ Hyphen Usmash/ almost anything but Fsmash from this.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Snake can shield the Dsmash.
However. Snake, Ike, Bowser, Dk all get hit by Jab/ U-Tilt/ D-Tilt from this.
No one else.
The Dsmash or re grab would be a gimmick if they don't expect it.
Everyone else can avoid this by Shield/ aerial or double jump air dodge.


The CG on Mk is not guaranteed, maybe you have 1-2 regrabs from 0% but From 0-24% we can use a Fresh D-Throw and connect with F-Tilt/ D-Tilt, which is worth more than 2 grabs.

And GFSC works from a trip, but you have to buffer the dash.

I'm pretty sure we tested shielding, cuz DK hits the ground first.

Regardless, I'm glad something came out of this if we can't get to the edge of the stage, is all.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

This cargo release stuff makes me want to practice brawl again lol.

Off topic but I just need to clarify how the cargo release chaingrab works on Ness and Lucas. Can you just stand still and buffer a turnaround grab from 0% to whenever you feel like stopping? Also a buffered downsmash after a cargo release is also guaranteed right?

 

[1PokeMastr]

This cargo release stuff makes me want to practice brawl again lol.

Off topic but I just need to clarify how the cargo release chaingrab works on Ness and Lucas. Can you just stand still and buffer a turnaround grab from 0% to whenever you feel like stopping? Also a buffered downsmash after a cargo release is also guaranteed right?

Grab -> Cargo ( Best when you're spinning around ) -> Cargo release -> Regrab -> repeat until kill damage -> Dsmash ( Doesn't have to be reversed ).

 

[DtJ S2n]

When I was doing 2 person testing for this, I actually couldn't get the Footstool on Snake to work, and instead was actually getting footstooled out of it when going for the footstool. In this case Snake was simply too high for me to footstool quickly, but I could still get the up-b.

 

[Luigi player]

When I was doing 2 person testing for this, I actually couldn't get the Footstool on Snake to work, and instead was actually getting footstooled out of it when going for the footstool. In this case Snake was simply too high for me to footstool quickly, but I could still get the up-b.

Yeah just like me. I really hope DKs try that stuff out vs humans before they do it in tourney and then get gimped cuz of that...

 

[DKwill]

Yeah just like me. I really hope DKs try that stuff out vs humans before they do it in tourney and then get gimped cuz of that...

I'm going to be doing a lot of in person testing before I start utilizing this heavily in tournament. Preferably versus players who main the characters worth testing against.

In theory, if you perform it properly and DK has a +1 frame advantage, from the position at which Snake is released it seems almost impossible for him to avoid the footstool.

Consider DK is placed directly above Snake after the edge cargo air release.

1) Assuming DK has just 1 frame of advantage, he can buffer his double jump in said frame. (A double jump for any character takes place in 1 frame)

2) In the next possible frame, Snake can now act. If he attempts to buffer a double jump, it will happen on this frame. In this same frame, DK will be mashing his jump input so as to footstool as soon as possible.

By this logic, unless if Snake can magically warp past our footstool, he should be footstooled every time. I'm going to test vs Snake mains to see if this works with varying types of DI.

Also, you should make sure you are angling mostly forward and slightly downward while cargo walking so as to get the full forward momentum during the cargo hold animation on the edge. (The slight downward angle prevents you from falling off the stage.)




Edit: This was all assuming Snake releases below us. Apparently when falling off the stage, Snake is above DK. D=

Ffffffff.

 

[1PokeMastr]

The only thing we have guaranteed out of this is Up B.

Foot stooling is Impossible if they hold away and Jump.

 

[crifer]

mostly angling forward gets me the footstoll on snake every time, but on falco i can not get it >.< I always footstool him when he uses his double jump not immedieatly after the release...

Is there like any specific rule which describes the speed of the walk in relation to the place where the other character will be released? like if i walk fast => enemy will be released far away from the stage and you get the footstool?

 

[DKwill]

mostly angling forward gets me the footstoll on snake every time, but on falco i can not get it >.< I always footstool him when he uses his double jump not immedieatly after the release...

Is there like any specific rule which describes the speed of the walk in relation to the place where the other character will be released? like if i walk fast => enemy will be released far away from the stage and you get the footstool?

It's also very dependent on which way they DI, apparently. They can either DI in (and possibly grab the edge) or DI away and double jump. It seems what we have discovered is just another DK gimmick! Haha.

The release into up-b should still be guaranteed as free damage on many characters though. Again, I would still like to test this a lot more in live matches to see how often it would work or if it's worth risking getting footstooled to try.

 

[crifer]

It's also very dependent on which way they DI, apparently. They can either DI in (and possibly grab the edge) or DI away and double jump. It seems what we have discovered is just another DK gimmick! Haha.

The release into up-b should still be guaranteed as free damage on many characters though. Again, I would still like to test this a lot more in live matches to see how often it would work or if it's worth risking getting footstooled to try.

hmm but how should they DI something like a grab release? I thought grab releases were not DI able.
If I go into the training mode and set the snake on "jump" i always get the footstool first, but if dk and snake release and I dont input a jump snake footstolls me...

 

[DKwill]

hmm but how should they DI something like a grab release? I thought grab releases were not DI able.
If I go into the training mode and set the snake on "jump" i always get the footstool first, but if dk and snake release and I dont input a jump snake footstolls me...

Poke was mentioning that Snake/any other character could feasibly escape the footstool by DI-ing away and jumping. He's testing it, but I would still like person on person testing to see for sure.

 

[1PokeMastr]

My toes and turbo controller don't lie.

Now I'm curious if I can do the Infinite on Dk with my feet.

 

[crifer]

Poke was mentioning that Snake/any other character could feasibly escape the footstool by DI-ing away and jumping. He's testing it, but I would still like person on person testing to see for sure.

yeah I understood that xD
I hope you´re wrong poke :D