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BlazBlue: Continuum Shift Thread - Continuum Shift II info!

ph00tbag

ph00tbag

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BearsAreScary said:
The reason Bang is better is because off of any random hit, a hit which he is nearly 100% guaranteed to get on you, he gets his oki. After 1-2 BnBs, he has meter, so his combos do a nice extra 2k. All well and good. The point is his mixup game is too ridiculous that once you're in the corner, you're not getting out.

Yes, Litchi's corner oki is crazy and she can get ridiculous combos off of counter hits, but the fact is that she never shuts you down before then. Litchi has to get in to hit you, and most Litchi plays either play the counterhit fishing game or will try to poke you/stick toss at you. It is during this time that Litchi has nothing on you. You can zone her, bait pokes, air throw, or pressure her before she can. Bang eliminates this possibility, as he is faster than everyone AND has nails to shut down their retreats/hitconfirm at all times.

You're basically saying "Well, Bang may have insane pressure options and oki, but when Litchi hits it does even more damage!" By that logic, Arakune would be the best character since, if you get hit by say...FC 5C/2C, you eat 100% curse and curse oki, so you always lose. Litchi has a super solid game, and her CHs are annoying as hell, but it is a combination of Bang's speed, move priority, combo damage and stupid good oki that make him the best. This man needs 0 meter to have a near 100% chance of doing at least 2k to you, or worse - 3.5k with oki in the corner. Life sucks versus Bang, it really does.


BTW: CS is way more balanced (yes, even with Bang) and (imo) more fun than CT :)
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You completely ignored what I said about zoning. The fact is, Litchi doesn't have to close the gap, because her Matenbou gives her massive range. She can just zone the hell out of you, and gets combos off of her zoning hits. Bang's zoning with needles is good for stuffing opponents approaches and covering Bang's approach, but it doesn't lead into his combo game like Litchi's zoning, and he only has twelve needles. Bang still has to get close and mix it up, which is something Litchi doesn't necessarily have to do.
 
BearsAreScary

BearsAreScary

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ph00tbag said:
You completely ignored what I said about zoning. The fact is, Litchi doesn't have to close the gap, because her Matenbou gives her massive range. She can just zone the hell out of you, and gets combos off of her zoning hits. Bang's zoning with needles is good for stuffing opponents approaches and covering Bang's approach, but it doesn't lead into his combo game like Litchi's zoning, and he only has twelve needles. Bang still has to get close and mix it up, which is something Litchi doesn't necessarily have to do.
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Litchi's pokes are actually a lot less safe than you might think. If a Litchi uses the charge up stick poke (high/low), the recovery is really long, almost any character can punish it. Even my slow-as-butt Arakune can punish her, so it's not a huge concern unless she mindgames you into doing something dumb.

Some Litchis also play stick toss pressure, but this also falls short unless she can fool you with tricks. She has no DP, her stick is a projectile (for sledge, etc.), and she can't poke/zone nearly as effectively while she's waiting for her stick to come back. She basically has to sit back and hope the stick hits you during this time, because if she approaches she runs a huge risk of eating some horrible damage.

Her only safe zoning are things like j.C over and over, coupled with 6B fishing for counter hits, and even that carries its risks. Trust me, even though Litchi has sick punishes, arguably better than Bang's, her setups are not nearly as good unless you already have oki/them in a corner. Bang is in people's faces at all times. This may seem like it's double-edged because people can DP out of it, but trying to DP out of anything is scary and should be used sparingly (or more if you have meter to burn), or when you know for sure your opponent won't block it. Being in someone's face pressuring them is always a good thing, especially for a character as good as Bang. If a good Bang plays against someone who's mashing shoryu every time they get pressured, that person will get 1 reversal BnB, and then never see the light of day again.
 
DC

DC

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Eh she has no DP? What are you talkin about? Maybe not against Tager.

Furthermore all of her combos drag you into the corner. Have you ever watched Litchi corner ****/sodomy?
 
ph00tbag

ph00tbag

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Litchi has a DP in Tsubame Gaeshi, and she only zones with j.C against airborne opponents. I also have no idea what you're talking about with the "charge-up stick poke." 4D? That can be special canceled even on block. Straight Through? That's not a poke and any Litchi that uses it before hit-confirm is not a Litchi you should be modeling your thought process on. 6D? That's a combo move, not a poke. Maybe a Litchi would use it against someone with one guard primer left.

Enough specifics, though. You haven't really spoken to the fact that where Litchi has zoning that nets random hits that almost always lead to combos that almost always pull the opponent into the corner and almost always give Litchi at least 50% heat for her to lock down her opponent on oki, Bang's zoning allows him to close the gap, but not always to catch his opponent in a block. IF he catches them in a block, then he does unholy damage and gets a good oki, but his oki is nowhere near as good as Litchi with 50% meter. But Bang's less-effective-than-Litchi's zoning is also tremendously limited (especially if he likes those D nails).

It's not like anyone is saying Bang is bad here. Litchi is just better.
 
DC

DC

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Depends on the matchup really. Bang is undoubtedly better against Lambda.
 
BearsAreScary

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I was saying Litchi has no DP if she uses stick toss for pressure. It's a gimmick, but one that Litchis use quite a bit to throw you off. Strange that they use it on me though, it's designed to try and fish a hit on Arakune to get rid of his nasty cloud/bell bug fortress, but it's not all that effective in the end.

And trust me, I've played good Litchis, it's really really hard, I've lost a lot. But Bang is undoubtedly better. Please don't forget the fact that if Bang wants to do damage to you, he will, and there's close to nothing you can do about it. His mixup is out of this world. 2A comes out instantly, 5C is pretty fast, and there's also 6A to mindgame people into blocking high. Oh, and you can't break their guard with just those? There's also a command grab for free damage. Ever notice in the pro matches why people NEVER escape the command grab during ground pressure? It's near impossible. It ensures that in any clutch situation, Bang will come out ahead, and the pressure begins. It is the fact that it is never-ending that he comes out on top.

I know Litchi does sick damage and her oki with meter is crazy good, but there is one thing that makes Bang better, and it's that you cannot escape him. Litchi has to close the distance, she has to make you screw up before you lose the round. It's easy to say that Litchi has high range and good pokes, but honestly, they're all gimmicks. If she can outsmart you, you'll get hit and lose the round pretty much instantly. This may be true, but she has to close that gap, and has to outsmart you and get that j.C or 6B CH. Without it, she really can't do much. Bang does not. He is in your face, and if he needs a safe way to close that distance, well, here are some nails. Maybe you guys are really good at doing IB CHs on nails, but it's scary at all times. Again, I've talked with SBO contestants about this, they all agree that Bang is ridiculous. He's not as easy to play, but he is definitely the best.
 
ph00tbag

ph00tbag

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I still think you're really simplifying Litchi's game into things that are good for her, but aren't the real reasons she's good. But I can see why it would make Bang better if he doesn't have to let up. I'm still not convinced he's better, but it's clear you are.

In other news: that closer look at Makoto... hypnotizing.
 
Shady Penguin

Shady Penguin

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I think the fact that:

1 Litchi combo -> 50% heat Corner Pressure -> Almost unavoidable second combo -> Victory

is actually a very common thing is what speaks to why Litchi is the best character.

Her zoning game is better than Bang's and even getting combo'd by her once often puts you in immediate and very probable danger of losing the round.
 
DC

DC

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Whereas Bang has to sacrifice damage for oki, Litchi gets both.

And Zero doesn't know what DFC is, lol.
 
CRASHiC

CRASHiC

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No way, people only think Litchi is best because she didn't change much. Tager is the best charecter now. I mean, his unavoidable giga buster, I mean, come on
 
DC

DC

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Makoto's Astral Finish:

She punches you into the moon and destroys it.

There's a video but I'm too lazy to find the link.
 
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