Abyssal Lagiacrus
Fly across the high seas and mountains
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,698
- Location
- Arkadelphia, Arkansas
- NNID
- LugiaTheGuardian
- 3DS FC
- 2981-6257-4399
What's up kooky denizens of the Bowser Jr. boards.
The time is long overdue for a matchup discussion thread for our favorite troublemakers, and by golly we shall have one now. Special thanks to @ Sonsa and @ Duck SMASH! for bringing it to my attention and whipping me into gear, lel.
Since the Bowser Jr. boards aren't as active as other boards, I won't have set weeks or set days for different characters. The way I'll handle this, is I'll announce which characters are being discussed, and I'll wait until there's been a good amount of discussion before moving on to the next. This way, all of you that visit the Bowser Jr. board will have a chance to chip in and give your thoughts on the particular matchups that are currently being discussed.
General Guidelines for Discussion/Contribution:
First and foremost, please be respectful and don't flame other users. We'll likely have users come here who main the character we're currently analyzing, and we don't need a flamewar sparking of "My character is better than yours" and whatnot.
Your posts do not have to adhere to a specific format, but it would be preferred if you kept these things in mind when you are discussion a matchup:
- Strengths
- Weaknesses
- Combo potential
- Off-stage capabilities
- Good/bad custom movesets
- Opinions
- Overall score
Overall Score
Overall Score is a way to generalize the favor of a matchup, and is based on a score of 100. When giving your thoughts on an overall score, please keep it at multiples of 5 (40:60, 35:65, 20:80, etc.). The number on the left refers to Bowser Jr./Koopalings, and the number on the right refers to the currently scheduled character of discussion.
The higher the number, the more favorable the matchup is for that character.
Use this for reference:
- 100:0 - 95:5; Bowser Jr./Koopalings would (almost) always win.
- 90:10 - 85:15; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a massive advantage.
- 80:20 - 75:25; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a strong advantage.
- 70:30 - 65:35; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a moderate advantage.
- 60:40 - 55:45; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a slight advantage.
- 50:50; Bowser Jr./Koopalings are evenly matched against their opponent.
- 40:60 - 45:55; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a slight disadvantage.
- 30:70 - 35:65; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a moderate disadvantage.
- 20:80 - 25:75; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a strong disadvantage.
- 10:90 - 15:85; Bowser Jr./Koopalings have a massive disadvantage.
- 0:100 - 5:95; Bowser Jr./Koopalings would (almost) always lose.
I'll do my best to keep updated with this thread and participate in discussions as well. If I'm not around for a while, then I'm being bogged down with university business.
Matchup Analyses
Shulk - 41:50
Helping out with how to organize the matchup. Creating specific mu threads and linking them here in the OP looks cool xD. At least that's what the Shulk's thread does which I like lol.
Guess I can help out what I played against Vicegrip's Ludwig and one mexican friend who mains Larry. But still this matchup is very rare. ":/, I've only played those two guys who actually can play him well, excluding those for glory ones which don't play well xD.
I consider this match to be in Shulk's favour tho but not unwinnable on bowser jr's side. Bowser jr. can outsmart shulk with his many projectile based games and clown kart approaches. (always cancelling clown kart to jump... cause the one where he like I think tries to go to the other side gives him a terrible ending lag ((sorry I don't know how to explain that attack from jr. xD))
- Having that bowser toy in land is quite effective, limits Shulk's way of approaching, you forcefully make Shulk jump and mostly he will nair or he will just stay shielding. Though, Shulk's zoning comes to play here, we love spacing you guys xD.
- Edgeguarding with the up b explosive junior kart hurts a ton and if the Shulk player can't tech it's mostly a guaranteed gimp since airslash has terrible frames to finally snap on to ledge.
- Overall we usually fair junior offstage but he can recover so well if he knows how to use that clown kart. So usually we prefer dairing you koopas .
Aha hopefully I can play you abyssal . We haven't played yet huh?
Screw insomnia.
Anyways I might as well post my thoughts while I'm here.
Unfortunately I'm not the best and I haven't seen too many high level shulk players.
But from what I've seen (some good ones), here's what I noticed.
- Shulk's range is ridiculous. Fsmash, Usmash, Uair, and Dair all have some of the largest ranges of all the attacks in the game.
- Shulk's monado lets him set the pace of the match. Constantly going on offense against speed/jump shulk is not easy... let alone against smash shulk with over 75% damage... Chances are that Jr. will be forced to play defensively.
- Aerials have great range. Nair and Fair are basically the same move in opposite directions (shulk swinging around himself)
- Buster forces you to play very carefully or your damage will shoot up faster than Jigglypuff after her shield breaks. >.>
- Smash is more punishable, because more of your hits will knock shulk farther away and waste his time coming back to you.
- Shield is a pain if you're trying to kill him. Probably better to wait it out or, if you can get him offstage, go for a gimp.
- Jump Shulk is really good at edgeguarding and either killing or gimping. Do your best to evade him as you return to the stage. Use Kart dash and mixup your recovery whenever you can.
- Vision is a pain as well, though it is predictable and can be dodged if you move out of the way fast enough.
- If Jr. is recovering low jump Shulk's aerials can spike/stage spike him with relative safety... As @ Artryuu mentioned, proper kart dash recovery is key to avoid losing your stock early.
Jr's advantages?
- PROJECTILES. Mechakoopa and cannonball are hugely important for either pressuring shulk or racking up damage.
- Kart dash. Gives Jr. the speed to get close to Shulk and combo him. Also predictable, but most of shulk's attacks aren't fast enough to punish Jr before he can get another attack in or get out of range.
- can combo the crap out of Shield shulk.
- Can punish Smash/buster shulk and deal more damage or even kill faster if the Shulk isn't cautious.
- can edgeguard or gimp all but jump shulk with relative ease. Shulk shouldn't be able to kill you as he's recovering unless your positioning is bad or something...
- Although Jr's aerials are outranged, they are still great for punishes and combos from kart dash (of which there are plenty )
I haven't heard much about customs from either character being particularly useful for the MU... just be twice as careful about power vision, cuz that move can really hurt if you use a smash on it or your cannonball or the giant MK or something...
Unfortunately I don't think I'm qualified enough to offer MU ratios. My opinion is that it's slightly in Jr's favour cuz most of Shulk's attacks are so laggy that even if he spaces them you can get a punish in with kart dash, but more likely the MU for now is even (Jump shulk edgeguarding is a pain, and all it takes is one mistake for buster/smash/speed shulk to seriously screw Jr. over...)
From the times I've played @Jerm , I can definitely agree with Artryuu that the mechakoopa is a very great way to limit what Shulk can do to approach or attack me.
I feel that like in most matchups that Bowjow has, he definitely excels at trying to get Shulk offstage and gimp him. Usually it works to bait out airdodges to get the attacks to land.
If Shulk is in Jump art, however, or if the player is skilled at switching really fast, you'll have a tougher time gimping him, especially if he has his jump.
An effective strategy to use (not abuse though, because then it becomes readable) is to use up-special offensively on stage, because Shulk loves to just go in on you, mostly with short-hop nairs. The kart will propel you to safety and deliver a nice explosion to his face, and possibly set up for Bowjow's own hoo-hah, the mighty Hammer. Even if Shulk hits you still, as long as you completed the animation before the ejection took place, your kart will still explode and send Shulk flying. Granted, you'll take damage from Shulk's attack, but it's pretty humorous to try and up-special, and when you get attacked you immediately go back to a neutral position while an explosion harmless to you sends your opponent away.
However, despite having a really really good recovery, Shulk can easily gimp him. The Monado's range is nothing to sleep on, and can easily snag Bowjow as he's ejecting, usually resulting in him losing his stock, so be mindful of that. Try to mix up your recovery when facing a Shulk.
I would honestly rate this matchup as 40:60. The matchup isn't heavily stacked in either character's favor, but Shulk has a more favorable lean, so Bowjow has to work harder to try and secure victory.
i imagine it's 60-40 for shulk. both characters can't overwhelm the other but shulk's range definitively gives him the edge.
Bowz June vs Shoolk
Yeah, sorry, I don't know much about this matchup either. But I imagine if Jr sees Shulk using a monado power he really doesn't want to deal with (damage/smash) Jr has a good runaway/keepaway game by getting away with his Up-B and Side-B, and keeping away with his B and Down-B.
Shulk also has great range, but Jr. has disjointed hitboxes so...maybe some retreating attacks can be thrown around safely...just really keep your distance, that monado has crazy reach.
Shulk also has lots of endlag on many moves which can be punished with a kart, which followed up by a hop up-air can kill at high percents. However Shulks main approach seems to be short hop nair, which doesnt have that much endlag, so I'd try to play with Mecha-Koopa until he gets impatient and does something else.
Without any projectiles of his own or a reflector, mecha-koopa can easily get you stage control most times. Just beware of counter, especially in his shield form.
Overall, Shulk is very adaptable and could maybe catch Jr in his speed form. But he has to jump cause mecha-koopa, which is his weakness! (could roll too, but easily predictable and punishable against mecha-koop) He could recover with his jump form! But Jr's edgeguarding is pretty decent with mecha-koop, cannon, up-b. In Shulk's shield form he may survive and get counter kills, but not if we keep our distance by taking advantage of his slow speed by simply taking on damage with projectiles. And for his damage and smash powers... yeah, run/keep-away for just 11 seconds.
I think Shulk can adapt, but Jr always has an answer. Not a hard counter answer, but an answer that does the job if the player is good enough. Shulk's range is tough to deal with so landing the finishing blow might be a little tricky, but I think I want to say this matchup is about even? Or slightly in Jr's favor? 55:45?
April 21 2015 edit: Yeah, fought some more, same basic idea. Jr can easily combo Shulk and get in quick to punish his endlag, get stage control with mecha-koopa which Shulk has almost no response to, and outlast any unfavorable manado arts. I just actually think this may be 60:40, 55:45 at least.
I don't have a lot of info on the shulk match up, just general stuff. his recovery (w/o Jump mode) is slow enough that we can bair>stage spike easy, but his range and counter do make tough kart approaches. I seems like our off stage game aerials would be stunted due to hes nair/fair warfare. does spinout trump his aerials?
I feel if we hit shulk off stage it would be from well timed nairs, projectiles, or when he's forced to recover instead of attack.
One of my friend's mains is Bowser Jr and we end up playing practise matches a lot. Whilst I may not have the experience of many people on the boards I'll offer my insight from a Shulk's perspective as I'm sure you'll have a lot of people to fill the Bowser Jr side of things, I'm not too good with terminology and this is my first writeup regarding Smash Bros matchups but I'll try my best
Neutral + Combo Game
The main area here where Shulk excels is his sheer range and ability to combo Bowser Jr upon landing a hit fairly well and early due to Jr's weight, changing to Buster as soon as combo's with vanilla Shulk or Speed arts become impossible from the neutral due to damage. A Shulk will likely take the usual approach of going for the immediate Speed art as it makes the neutral tilt in his favour, able to play mind games with immediate access to speed and range - none of Jr's attacks outrange and it seems initially that the only way Jr will be able to start up on Shulk is by hard reads. However as a Shulk player I feel the best tools Jr has to combat a Shulk is Mecha's and the Kart Dash. Mecha Koopa's can be thrown to disrupt an approach and Shulks have to play very carefully to not get caught up in the blast - although he doesn't have much landing lag on his neutral air when he hits the ground there is a time where he is vulnerable and this can be capitalised on. Bowser Jr's disjoints on his moves also means he can stop Shulks animation (not sure what the term for this is) and hit quicker than Shulk with a neutral air of his own. Kart Dashing also punishes lag and can be used as a sucker of Jr's own, although they should bear in mind Shulk has both a counter and the speed to challenge this, and the tools to punish. In terms of damage output through combo strings Bowser Jr initially has the edge with his Abandon combo's, dashes or a string after throwing a Mecha but Shulk is consistent later on in the stock with Buster to continue his bread and butter setups into combos.
Off-stage capabilities
This is where I feel the matchups tilts in Shulk's favour. His aerial range trades well with Bowser's fast neutral air option and with Jump art his aerial speed lets him challenge all of Bowser's options when they are level or Shulk is slightly above Jr (too high up and Shulk is in range for a Abandon punish). Shulk can utilise his spike with the same efficiency as normal due to the range and Jr can only really air dodge and recover to get away from it, which a patient Shulk will catch up on. Last but not least for Shulk, he can utilise his Juggle forward aerial combo into itself at mid percentage ranges to KO Jr if the stage isn't too wide, which Jr will find difficult to escape from due to the sheer speed Shulk has with Jump activated to chase. On the other side Jr likes getting in close to Shulk surprisingly as a fast neutral air will be too fast for Shulk to react to with his own attacks. Additionally if Jr is ABOVE Shulk in the air, Shulk is completely unable to recover if a well timed Abandon is used against him, which even has the change of KO'ing Shulk if the player doesn't tech in time. Still with these factors I feel Shulk has overall more options to punish Jr with his range and ability to combo into himself
KO Options
In terms of KO options this is where the matchup gets interesting. Abandon to any aerial without the kart seems to be the most reliable way for Jr to KO from my experience, and it avoids Shulk's counter too but is open to punishes as it puts Jr above Shulk. Catching Shulk in this combo should KO in rage around 100%. Dashing into aerials in the neutral zone is a good way to finish off Shulk too. Shulk's options have more range and will KO at around 90% in the neutral with Smash, or over that if not using forward Smash or back air, trading range for speed. I feel both characters options are even here with their respective strengths
Overall I feel Shulk has an advantage in this matchups due to his flexibilty with both his arts and his range in neutral and advantage in the air as well. However, many parts of the game are even for both characters and Bowser Jr has multiple options to rack up quick damage onto a Shulk with prediction. Therefore I will place this matchup as 65:35 in Shulk's favour (or -1 if you're using that system, I don't think it's a -2 for Jr in this case).
I personally think that Shulk has a better match up mostly due to his speed and buster monado. Due to Jr.'s lack of range (not counting projectiles) Shulk can rack up damage quite easily. Neutral air is probably something Jr. mains would be afraid of. Yet, I think it is possible for a Jr. main to take advantage of by utilizing the side and down special, other than that, I would say the matchup is about 30:70
I find the Shulk matchup EXTREMELY EASY. If the shulk is in any monado other than speed, he's combo food and has no approach vs bjr. His usmash is too slow to punish kart to jump on shield and his oos hitboxes are too slow to punish karts.
If the shulk activates speed, all the bjr needs to do is camp. Mixing in good rolling and kart oos will keep bjr safe until speed deactivates and bjr can rack up % again. Smash monado is hilarious, kart-upb-hammer will kill shulk at around 70% without rage.
On Shulk, I think the biggest concern is that he is very hard to punish during Speed (and Jump I guess). I'd also recommend not setting up Mechakoopas while he uses these arts because he can punish really easily. During other arts, he isn't that hard to bait and punish because of the slow moves that he has to commit to. Smart shielding is important here.
His range is better than Jr.'s which sucks but isn't a deal-breaker. You need to be careful of Vision because he can use it on a Mechakoopa walking toward him and on Koopa Cart. Using grabs strategically will keep him from abusing Vision.
A nice factor in Jr.'s favor is that Shulk is (relative to much of the cast...) easy to gimp. Most Shulk will try to recover from below because Air Slash doesn't give much horizontal distance. Waiting for him to go underneath the ledge and nailing him with a nair or Abandon Ship is super rewarding. Even if we don't gimp him we can kill him at an early percent by punishing him on a read.
I disagree with some of the above ratios - the matchup is much closer to even.
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