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Bowser Needs Something

Frost | Odds

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I still want to see what fire breath would be like if it charged like wario's waft, able to cover the entirety of the bottom level of PS2 (or maybe 3/4 of it -ish) briefly on a full charge, with the breath's length incrementally building up to that over the duration.

It would allow Bowser to camp/force approaches a little better, would hardly be broken even if it equated to completely free damage, but counterplay would still be available via anything that normally stops projectiles.

It may seem kinda ridiculous on first glance, but it still wouldn't make bowser any less combo food or harder to gimp or otherwise tougher to kill -- simply put opponents on a bit of a clock so they can't beat bowser quite as easily with simple camping. I'd be ok with nerfs to armor or something if it was deemed totally necessary.

It's still my favorite solution, particularly because nothing new really needs to be coded into the game - making it really easy to implement and test.

Gameplay would also be a bit less stale as the range Bowser wants to space at to safely hit opponents with firebreath would constantly be changing throughout the match.
 
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FakeKraid

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I'm still not convinced these sweeping changes are really necessary. The only matchups I have serious trouble with right now are characters who are presently (by consensus) generally broken (Pit, Mewtwo, Lucas), because their neutral games are too safe to punish, Zero Suit Samus because her dsmash is impossible to recover against, and Captain Falcon because he can zero-to-death me either on punish or with frame-trap approaches.

The former just needs to be addressed in a general balance tweak, and Zero Suit should have the OtE reach of her dsmash reduced just a tiny bit. The Captain Falcon match probably can't be fixed without making him suck again and no one wants that; I can accept one bad matchup.
 
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mimgrim

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......Honestly. Smash seems to be mobility based because of the more popular character having good mobility really. But then you have characters like Bowser or Ganondorf who are on the more immobile side. Sure you could try making them more mobile instead but unless it is going to be through revamping him that needed mobility will have to be achieved through a more gimmicky way, and whil that isn;t necessarily a bad thing it also isn't the best way to go about it.

Bowser is actually close to being a Grappler as is currently, imo. Bowser mostly uses short combos with some medium length ones thrown in there, relies on poking already, and requires a lot more outsmarting landing his punishes via that and for the most part it works for him in P:M until he faces a projectile. He just lacks the super duper good throws of a grappler and the ways to deal with projectiles.
 

GeZ

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Smash is totally mobility centric. Have you noticed that those "more popular characters" place better? And they're uniformly highly mobile. That's the nature of the game. Same way that Bowser and Ganon haven't been good in most of the games they've been in, and even in P:M suffer because of their poor mobility. I like the cast diversity, and I'm not suggesting a normalization for Bowser/ Ganon/ big characters general, but as it stands now they need something to counter act the inherent disadvantage they have from being less mobile by nature.

Also, while some of those qualities resemble the qualities of a grappler, they don't mean that Bowser fits the same template, or comes close. Smash just doesn't allow for grapplers. The uniform mobility for the whole cast ensures that.
 

WIZRD.Pro

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Smash is totally mobility centric. Have you noticed that those "more popular characters" place better? And they're uniformly highly mobile. That's the nature of the game. Same way that Bowser and Ganon haven't been good in most of the games they've been in, and even in P:M suffer because of their poor mobility. I like the cast diversity, and I'm not suggesting a normalization for Bowser/ Ganon/ big characters general, but as it stands now they need something to counter act the inherent disadvantage they have from being less mobile by nature.

Also, while some of those qualities resemble the qualities of a grappler, they don't mean that Bowser fits the same template, or comes close. Smash just doesn't allow for grapplers. The uniform mobility for the whole cast ensures that.
Bad balancing is why Grapplers don't work. If Meta Knight had a bad recovery, Pit had to regen arrows along, and Lucas lost his Up-B and Confirms into Up-Smash, P:M would be a radically different game.
 

GeZ

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That's just not true. Any of the perfectly well balanced characters in the game would wreck a grappler as well. While strong characters don't help their chances, they don't exist even in a relatively fine environment.

Think about it in a sense of this, your opponent jumps at you. You predict an attack from the front so you use an armored grab. They can WL/ hit you from behind/ beat your grab with a move with better priority/ stuff it with a projectile.

The only way to counter act that is to make the grab reach in every direction and have full priority against all other moves, which is bad balance in and of itself. Spot dodging alone makes it so there can't be grapplers in smash. Functionally the game provides too much of an uphill battle as grapplers rely on characters having to commit to decisions, like jump arcs, or dash's.
 

Frost | Odds

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The best thing Bowser could get for his grab game would be to get a bigass projectile to reduce opponents' options and make it easier to get those grab reads.
 

Thor

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Firstly, Brawl- is a mess, so citing it is like saying glue is edible because preschoolers have done it.

Second, that's not the grappler archetype. The grappler archetype relies on poking, short combos, and out smarting your opponent and landing your punishes based on that. This only works when your mobility is greatly limited, a la street fighter format. Think Zangief.

Edit: I know they say they have stuff inspired from Gief, like the running bear grab, but it just doesn't serve the same purpose as it does in street fighter. The point I'm making is you could make Bowser into something like that, but it's fundamentally not a grappler, and wouldn't fit in the P:M environment based on the mobility offered to the rest of the cast.
What version of Brawl- are you looking at? 3.3 is great, 3.5 is hardly a mess (Samus...), and 3.Q may have an odd changelog because some of the devs apparently lost it and started changing something things [seemingly] willy-nilly, but Bowser wasn't affected by this beyond having to deal with a few oddly buffed characters.

Bowser relies somewhat on his Royal Rampage (it isn't called the running bear grab anymore) and his combos are short and devastating indeed (unless you use the right throws, that set your opponent up for more throws - at which point they're moderate length and disgusting). Also you have to outsmart with both the RR (or else free punishes all day) and some other moves (his fsmash is fantastic but high risk of eating a ton of damage before one actually dodge-cancels it (or eating damage because of dodge cancel)). He usually gets a KO off of two successful RRs if done properly, because it is RR dthrow -> Flying Slam -> X, where X is pretty much anything (the Flying Slam grounds people and the RR ground-bounces them, and I'm pretty sure it can't be teched either).

He's also got decent enough pokes in the form of his ftilt and jab. I'm not saying it's perfect or anything, but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.

And you can b-reverse his Royal Rampage/Galactic Crusher (that would be the aerial super-armor grab) [yay Brawl engine], and you can also opt for the somewhat faster and still very rewarding (But less/no armor, not sure at this point since I don't play Bowser in any iteration of this game) Flying Slam.

GeZ said:
Smash is totally mobility centric. Have you noticed that those "more popular characters" place better? And they're uniformly highly mobile. That's the nature of the game. Same way that Bowser and Ganon haven't been good in most of the games they've been in, and even in P:M suffer because of their poor mobility. I like the cast diversity, and I'm not suggesting a normalization for Bowser/ Ganon/ big characters general, but as it stands now they need something to counter act the inherent disadvantage they have from being less mobile by nature.

Also, while some of those qualities resemble the qualities of a grappler, they don't mean that Bowser fits the same template, or comes close. Smash just doesn't allow for grapplers. The uniform mobility for the whole cast ensures that.
For the record, I don't really think Bowser should become a grappler archetype either, but it is possible if you make certain traits of Bowser polarizing/extreme enough. I don't know if there would be/can exist a happy medium between "This character sucks" and "this character invalidates the cast besides ICs who have port priority" though. Since people were suggesting it, I just decided to throw out the mod as an example.

If you still disagree, whatever - again, I'm not pushing him as a grappler, just explaining how he works in a game you seem somewhat out of date on.

EDIT:
GeZ said:
That's just not true. Any of the perfectly well balanced characters in the game would wreck a grappler as well. While strong characters don't help their chances, they don't exist even in a relatively fine environment.

Think about it in a sense of this, your opponent jumps at you. You predict an attack from the front so you use an armored grab. They can WL/ hit you from behind/ beat your grab with a move with better priority/ stuff it with a projectile.

The only way to counter act that is to make the grab reach in every direction and have full priority against all other moves, which is bad balance in and of itself. Spot dodging alone makes it so there can't be grapplers in smash. Functionally the game provides too much of an uphill battle as grapplers rely on characters having to commit to decisions, like jump arcs, or dash's.
Bower's RR beats spotdodges that aren't frame-perfect (and some can't really spotdodge it at all), and Brawl- has spotdodges much closer to vBrawl length - since PM adjusted spotdodges to be less safe (or so I've heard), Bowser's RR actually wouldn't be spotdodgable, which sort of moots out the spotdodging argument. (You can definitely roll out of the way though). Also, if you think they will attack you, wavedash back RR would answer this - if they've committed like a Captain Falcon jump, they won't have the space to land behind you, and tromping forward will cover landing in front - and there are literally no moves that beat the RR in Brawl- (like, I Warlock Punched him, so Bowser was operating at 700%, but he still grabbed me out of it). The projectile is the only respectable answer, and that would only be if you expected them to attack way more than they actually committed to.

Then again, grabs that can't be spotdodged don't really fit in PM because dev's visions (spotdodging is a mechanic to beat and punish frequent grabbers or something like that) so it still wouldn't work....
 
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GeZ

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I have no real beef with Brawl- but there's a reason it's not played competitively, and that's because it's not designed competitively.

If you want to understand why grapplers don't work in smash, and they don't, just pick up SF4 for a week, and play Zangief. You'll realize why your arguments are fundamentally wrong, and I won't have to type another paragraph about it.
 

Abeebo

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Bowser does not need more grabs. As GeZ already stated, unless you make these new grabs practically unbeatable, Bowser will still suffer from his lack of movement, size, and general options. A projectile will still be blocked, reflected, and dodged while leaving Bowser exactly how he is. Superficial changes alone won't work in the long run. Honestly, what are you guys seeing in this new grab that his two current ones (which are already ridiculous) cannot do in a million+ years of metagame without being a sort of panic-button cover-all unstoppable move?

Just look at Bowser's frame data as it is now and you'll see why he keeps falling behind. His anti-approach big hitter style isn't enough in this environment. Everyone else can get away with being more aggressive or more patient more often and more effectively than Bowser. Most everything he has is faster than before, but just slow enough to prevent him from reacting to his opponents in most situations, which is so detrimental because he can't retaliate safely like others can without putting himself in a risky spot. He mostly needs some slight core improvements. Less rare candies and more training.
 
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Frost | Odds

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So, bigger/less laggy flame breath, less stupid jumpsquat, faster/less laggy standing grab? Those reasonable?
 
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Chesstiger2612

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I created some kind of "dream changelist" for every character.
For Bowser it would be:
  • One more hitbox on the end of Bowser's grounded up-B
Because you want to be safe against sloppy punishes at least, still there are methods to it, but shielding it the first time shouldn't allow you to wait that long with the punish
  • Side-B different between tilt and full press (tilt: much faster than full press, less endlag, full press: with higher range, knockback and damage)
Aside from these kinds of mechanics being awesome in general, this covers more situations than one Koopa claw. Also it makes the character a bit more difficult in terms of decisionmaking and choosing between similar options, and balancing difficulties is also a good thing, and Bowser is subpar still there
  • Faster IASA for Jab 1
Bowser needs some kind of neutral game buff and this would help him, because poor spacing by the opponent will allow for jab 1 -> grab or jab 1 -> tilt side-b. His jumpsquat makes his aerials worse so he needs one versatile ground option.
  • Dash speed slightly increased
Plus a bit of ground mobility to be able to have better possibilities to weave in and out of range

Maybe some change to fire breath would be a good idea, too. I don't support making his jumpsquat faster because it is part of his uniqueness / character design and a heavy turtle just doesn't take off without a bit of startup. The grab change might be reasonable but I prefer the jab IASA because jabs need buffs in general in PM, in addition Bowser has his side-b, and grabs will either be commitive or broken because they beat shields. Giving more characters projectiles also can't be a solution for fixing their neutral games for design reasons, and it is an easy way of dealing with neutral games if there are no better suggestions.

Please tell me if you agree or disagree
 

Abeebo

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I'm always down for a better jumpsquat. I'm indifferent about standing grab cuz dash grab and SideB and UpB. I really don't know what to think about flame breath though...

a heavy turtle just doesn't take off without a bit of startup
Uhh...... A heavy turtle just doesn't take off. Period. You'll need a better reason than that.
 

WIZRD.Pro

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I'm always down for a better jumpsquat. I'm indifferent about standing grab cuz dash grab and SideB and UpB. I really don't know what to think about flame breath though...


Uhh...... A heavy turtle just doesn't take off. Period. You'll need a better reason than that.
Dinosaurs don exist #Noshi
 

Abeebo

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Twisting your arm, mostly. Lemme see what we got here...

I created some kind of "dream changelist" for every character.
For Bowser it would be:
  • One more hitbox on the end of Bowser's grounded up-B
Because you want to be safe against sloppy punishes at least, still there are methods to it, but shielding it the first
time shouldn't allow you to wait that long with the punish
-Have you seen the hitboxes(bubbles?) on this thing?? It's already so damn janky and riddled with all sorts of hits, haha. What kind of hitbox are you looking for? A multihit kinda thing similar to aerial UpB? MAYBE one more hitbox on command after an opponent shields it. MAYBE. I know what you mean when you mention the free punish, but you really shouldn't be approaching with grounded UpB to begin with. Personally, I almost always use it OoS or a mixup to dash attack/dash grab so that I may get a free hit + grab ledge. On special occasions, i'll use Dair at some point and immediately do aerial UpB for BIG damage. No knockback, but BIG damage. OMG the sounds of your opponent being shredded by these two moves. MMMMMMMS.
Aside from these kinds of mechanics being awesome in general, this covers more situations than one Koopa claw. Also it makes the character a bit more difficult in terms of decisionmaking and choosing between similar options, and balancing difficulties is also a good thing, and Bowser is subpar still there
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree on this one. First, what changes are there to the red armor, if any? Also, I feel the tilting aspect is going to heavily affect the aerial Klaw as Bowser will have to slow down midair and right before the move in order to perform it which sounds like it may have a tendency to miss. I like to think that Bowser's moveset has very significant and distinct moves for his options so adding a tilt is, I guess, trying to solve some issue i'm not seeing. I have a feeling you're mostly referring to the hitbox of Klaw and not the grabbox(?). I might be able to see the tilt as a variant with just a hitbox, although a faster hitbox from Klaw would probably be outclassed by Jab or UpB, as they are much easier to perform for similar results. Plus Jab1 can link to Utilt very cleanly.

Faster IASA for Jab 1
Bowser needs some kind of neutral game buff and this would help him, because poor spacing by the opponent will allow for jab 1 -> grab or jab 1 -> tilt side-b. His jumpsquat makes his aerials worse so he needs one versatile ground option.
Not bad.

Ahh so... :) Now that you guys have mentioned Brawl-, I did notice that Bowser's dash turnaround animation in that game is very smooth and pretty nice. I wouldn't mind something similar here in M in order to help make up for his iffy dash dance.

WHAT IS FORMAT
 
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Chesstiger2612

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@ Abeebo Abeebo
You are right my argumentation on the jumpsquat was pretty bad. It doesn't really have a balance function or anything, it is just a feature of his uniqueness. It woule be like taking away Peach's slow double jump, although it might help her.
There are only subjective design reasons for it, so I can't really give any proper reasoning.

For up-B, I was thinking of the initial hitbox again being placed as separate one on the last frame. Bowser's up-B often has a similar problem as Link's up-B OoS where it misses the first time and then Bowser is helpless for a very long time. For Link that is a good feature, because then he has to choose his OoS differently (nair OoS as example), but Bowser doesn't have viable aerials OoS so I would makes up-B OoS as his main option stronger in this way.
I am not trying to approach with up-B by the way, the change was fully thought to help Bowser's OoS.

Full press would have standard armor while tilt wouldn't have any.
Bowser doesn't need to slow down in the air, if I assume tilt press has the same window as forward-tilt it will reach up to 73% on the stick press while horizontal aerial mobility starts at 25%, and that is honestly a pretty big window.
I do refer to both the grabbox and the hitbox (knockback and damage to the throws and the hitbox, the grab itself of course not).
Indeed it would be pretty useless if only the hitbox is concerned because Bowser has other good hits fitting in these situations.
On the ground, it is almost like a little grab with extra hitbox that has altered throws, in the air it would be a little range Koopa claw with throws more likely to combo.
These were my main thoughts behind it:
It could build up some traps / bait setups for that full press Koopa claw would be to slow: any normal -> tilt Koopa claw to read non-shieldgrab punish attempts
It would help Bowsers combo ability, because tilt side-b throws can lead to followups, getting the move is harder though.
 

Rags

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....guys, what if bowser's klaw worked like mario's cape? where he grabs projectiles and throws them back?
 

turtletank

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That's actually an interesting idea, however the slow startup of the move could make it problematic for spammable projectiles, since it would only make sense for it to reflect when he swipes forward. Unless the startup is reduced, the move would have to be read based and therefore redundant to his already read-based moveset.

It's also a question of whether Bowser needs a reflective move. He's been granted crawl armour to deal with smaller projectiles, and large projectile spam could be made much less threatening by simply increasing his mobility. Ultimately, I feel a reflective move would be too radical and unnecessary when there are simpler solutions available.

Also - powershields, yo.
 

FakeKraid

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turtletank has the right idea. Dealing with projectiles is not the major challenge facing Bowser right now, it's dealing with broken neutral games that have no vulnerable frames to punish.

As for Flame Breath, I get plenty of use out of it as is. It has some use in punishing returns when you can't manage a proper edge-guard and when Flame Cancelled can be used to punish unsafe approaches with not much risk. It can even be used to force players who are trying to face-camp you to either back off or close in in some situations. TBH, I use it more than I use his dsmash.
 
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WIZRD.Pro

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turtletank has the right idea. Dealing with projectiles is not the major challenge facing Bowser right now, it's dealing with broken neutral games that have no vulnerable frames to punish.
Hmm, well he currently can't combo very well, so maybe make it so that he gains charge the more he gets combo'd. The longer he is in hitstun the more powerful he becomes. The more powerful he becomes the more damage he deals and the better his Heavy Armor becomes. Finally, he expend his charge to break out of a combo with his nair.

Seems balanced and fair in theory if you ask me. It would add a real decision type approach to Bowser not unlike Brawl Lucario. But since it is based off of combos and the number of times he gets hit also, it would make him a direct counter to the likes of Lucas and Pit.

Of course that may not be a choice the PMBR wants so:

Just nerf the punks!
 

FakeKraid

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Hmm, well he currently can't combo very well, so maybe make it so that he gains charge the more he gets combo'd.
I regularly get 50%-80% damage on punishes against most characters even with good DI. Bowser combos and tech-chases just fine considering his power. The only characters he has trouble combing are floaties and he kills them so fast it hardly matters there. A sweet-spot fair will kill Meta-Knight at 70% on most stages, and on low-ceiling stages utilt will kill at under 100%.

I mean, I've complained about, say, Captain Falcon's matchup, but keep in mind that I still only lose to the two best Falcons in my region, Remo and Crescent Monkey. Other Falcon players I helplessly knock about and then gimp at low percents because they don't have his safe approaches down and don't realize just how fast I can move and punish them. Bowser has some very, very bad matchups, yes, but even in them you will win if you're better than your opponent. That's why I say he's close to perfect now.
 
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WIZRD.Pro

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I regularly get 50%-80% damage on punishes against most characters even with good DI. Bowser combos and tech-chases just fine considering his power. The only characters he has trouble combing are floaties and he kills them so fast it hardly matters there. A sweet-spot fair will kill Meta-Knight at 70% on most stages, and on low-ceiling stages utilt will kill at under 100%.

I mean, I've complained about, say, Captain Falcon's matchup, but keep in mind that I still only lose to the two best Falcons in my region, Remo and Crescent Monkey. Other Falcon players I helplessly knock about and then gimp at low percents because they don't have his safe approaches down and don't realize just how fast I can move and punish them. Bowser has some very, very bad matchups, yes, but even in them you will win if you're better than your opponent. That's why I say he's close to perfect now.
Okay, I really haven't played too much competitively so all I'm really doing is throwing out ideas based on my observations. But still, this just further cements the fact we're going to need to nerf Lucas and his pals...
 

FakeKraid

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Okay, I really haven't played too much competitively so all I'm really doing is throwing out ideas based on my observations. But still, this just further cements the fact we're going to need to nerf Lucas and his pals...
I've been I'm the competitive scene for seven years and am, to the best of my knowledge, the highest-ranking Bowser player in the MD/VA region, though of course I'm also the only Bowser main who goes to tournaments regularly - there's another Bowser called 9k in our region who's very good, but I'm led to understand he mostly plays Wi-Fi and I've only ever seen him at one tournament, where I was impressed enough to watch him closely and learn some matchup info from him, so if you can find some footage of him anywhere you might check that out. I haven't looked yet.

That being said, take heart, because last time I talked to C-Mart he was telling me that balancing characters with impenetrable neutral games was the current focus of the next build. Hopefully whenever that comes out well see things improve on that front.
 

Rags

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On special occasions, i'll use Dair at some point and immediately do aerial UpB for BIG damage. No knockback, but BIG damage. OMG the sounds of your opponent being shredded by these two moves. MMMMMMMS.
What situations and how do you pull off a dair into UpB? sounds like it'd be tough to pull off
 

Rags

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That's actually an interesting idea, however the slow startup of the move could make it problematic for spammable projectiles, since it would only make sense for it to reflect when he swipes forward. Unless the startup is reduced, the move would have to be read based and therefore redundant to his already read-based moveset.

It's also a question of whether Bowser needs a reflective move. He's been granted crawl armour to deal with smaller projectiles, and large projectile spam could be made much less threatening by simply increasing his mobility. Ultimately, I feel a reflective move would be too radical and unnecessary when there are simpler solutions available.

Also - powershields, yo.
Well I was thinking something like if you've played Blazblue, there's a character Azrael, who has a move that eats projectiles and in the eating animation, he becomes invincible and he stores up to 3 projectiles to use for later. Maybe something like he'll eat a projectile and that will turn his neutral B into a fast moving fireball that goes fullscreen. Maybe something like that?
 

turtletank

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Well I was thinking something like if you've played Blazblue, there's a character Azrael, who has a move that eats projectiles and in the eating animation, he becomes invincible and he stores up to 3 projectiles to use for later. Maybe something like he'll eat a projectile and that will turn his neutral B into a fast moving fireball that goes fullscreen. Maybe something like that?
Ehh, it could potentially work but still seems unnecessary. It would be odd to give him an entirely new mechanic so far into development, especially since there's no reason to in the first place.
 
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FakeKraid

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What situations and how do you pull off a dair into UpB? sounds like it'd be tough to pull off
It's not a combo. I do it sometimes, but it only works if your opponent isn't familiar with Bowser or has been intimidated to the point of freaking out. He's right, though - it IS super-satisfying. :D
 
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FakeKraid

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@ FakeKraid FakeKraid
I don't suppose it's possible that you learned a range of possible times for the next patch? :o
No, sadly not. I am conversational with C-Mart because we're both Bowser mains and I know JCeasar because he used to come to my place all the time back when Project M was in its earliest stages of development and Brawl+ was the big thing, but I am not actually a PMBR member and they control information pretty tightly. Both of the above mentioned people did like my suggestion to give Bowser his own unique win symbol, though.
 

Strong Badam

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@ FakeKraid FakeKraid
I don't suppose it's possible that you learned a range of possible times for the next patch? :o
This type of discussion isn't really allowed here. Speculate all you like but trying to pry leaks out of people isn't cool.
 

GeZ

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This type of discussion isn't really allowed here. Speculate all you like but trying to pry leaks out of people isn't cool.
I don't think his intent was to pry. But now we know that those questions aren't cool on here so we can steer clear of them.
 

FakeKraid

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Salisbury, MD
This type of discussion isn't really allowed here. Speculate all you like but trying to pry leaks out of people isn't cool.
For my part, I don't have any interest in either prying or revealing PMBR secrets. I figure anything C-Mart tells me conversationally at a tournament or wherever is safe since he knows I'm not an insider, but honestly I trust him and the rest of the back-roomers to do the right thing. I'm really impressed with how far the game has come already and if he was telling the truth about focusing on reining in neutral games and other general balance tweaks (and if that focus has not since changed) I think that's exactly the right direction to go in right now, both from my own experience in tournament matches and from general observations of tournament results and discussion among high-level players. The specifics won't concern me until there's a public release to play them in, and I like surprises as much as the next guy.
 
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Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
2,328
Location
Calgary, Alberta
This type of discussion isn't really allowed here. Speculate all you like but trying to pry leaks out of people isn't cool.
Of course. My apologies for giving that impression -- but if I were to pry, I'd like to think I'd have the sense to do it via private messaging.

You guys obviously don't owe us anything, but I really can't fathom the total secrecy approach here. Why not actually discuss possible changes with the community? It's obvious you guys want to make some sort of use of community input, so what's the problem with allowing us to communicate more precisely?

I love what the PMBR is doing and want to be more of a part of it. Good intentions aside, it's still kinda frustrating to be locked out and not know why.
 
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WIZRD.Pro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
186
Of course. My apologies for giving that impression -- but if I were to pry, I'd like to think I'd have the sense to do it via privage messaging.

You guys obviously don't owe us anything, but I really can't fathom the total secrecy approach here. Why not actually discuss possible changes with the community? It's obvious you guys want to make some sort of use of community input, so what's the problem with allowing us to communicate more precisely?

I love what the PMBR is doing and want to be more of a part of it. Good intentions aside, it's still kinda frustrating to be locked out and not know why.
I guess because everything in Dev versions is so WIP, they don't really want any controversies or anything going on about something that may not even be released. Trust me, coming from the MCF and FTBf I see quite a few of these and even the slightest comment can bury any useful information under piles of spam and nonsense. Need proof? There's an entire thread about ELORAAM coming back that is still going on. It was one of the fastest growing threads on Feed the Beast and Elo's news completely derailed and overran 2 threads and created about 5 new ones on TWO separate occasions all from a few misplaced quotes.

So, if I were to guess, it's not that they don't WANT to give us new info, it's that they just CAN'T

Though, if they were to give something like one update or poll a month just as an info gathering thing before anything about it actually gets coded it might (keyword might) be kind of okay.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
I'd like to remind some people too that the BRoomers really do read these threads and test a lot of this stuff out. I probably shouldn't get into specifics but I've read stuff in threads (particularly for Bowser) where something suggested here was tested, implemented, and in the end rejected, but still gone over. These guys know what they're doing. Assume the secrecy is to keep out a lot of the "WHAT BUTTON IS JUMP" crowd.
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
2,328
Location
Calgary, Alberta
I'd like to remind some people too that the BRoomers really do read these threads and test a lot of this stuff out. I probably shouldn't get into specifics but I've read stuff in threads (particularly for Bowser) where something suggested here was tested, implemented, and in the end rejected, but still gone over. These guys know what they're doing. Assume the secrecy is to keep out a lot of the "WHAT BUTTON IS JUMP" crowd.
Indeed. It would still be nice to know exactly what's been tested and rejected and why, so we can properly narrow the pool for suggestions, or possibly refine existing ones to address those objections.
 

Abeebo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
278
Location
SF Valley
I could see Utilt being a move that could move Bowser. Make him step back ala Fsmash without returning to the original position so he's further away when he uses it. As if he's taking a wide stance while swinging, and then repositioning about half a Bowser's length, which could also give him a better chance of hitting behind him as his claw comes back down(unless the opponent find themselves inside Bowser, where he can't really do anything about it but UpB, which is fair enough I suppose). Against opponents at low percents, this shouldn't change the amount of Utilts you can juggle with very much as it usually send opponents backwards, and DI'ing away would give Bowser a chance at a tippered Fair or angled Ftilt. At higher percents, it could give Bowser a better spot to follow up if need be AND add a safer grounded option against opponents coming back down considering the arc of Utilt would be wider. The IASA fames are currently pretty long anyway. Top Hat optional :p
 
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FakeKraid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
140
Location
Salisbury, MD
Okay, okay, I've come up with a serious suggestion now. It's easy to program, shouldn't affect game balance much, and will solve a pet peeve of mine.

Make Bowser's item-throw animation faster. He's already particularly vulnerable to things like turnips and bananas because of his size, there's no reason why it should be even more of a liability to catch or pick one up than it is to dodge or avoid it. I always curse inwardly when I accidentally get hold of one because I know that's like half a second of total vulnerability before I can use any normal moves again and it sucks and it's pointless. There, I'm done.
 
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