Social Bowser's Castle

[Deleted member 189823]

On a side note though, rage downB can be ridiculous. I was losing a match so hard to a kirby and was around 130 rage and managed to star K.O him while under 75% after the hit.

So, liek, before 55 in reality? Yeah, it kills pretty ridonculously. Pretty sure I've KO'd heavyweights before 100 without that much RAGE to begin with...and I don't know how is this surprising, Bowser being Bowser.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

This is probably a silly request, but do you guys know a lot about dealing with Ganondorf as Bowser? It's a matchup I usually do well in, but one of my friends, who is casual, plays Ganondorf very well and uses D-tilts, Jabs, F-tilts and N-Airs to make approaching difficult while using Flame Choke->D-tilt to keep me in the air. Could use some help on just overcoming some of that.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

If it becomes like that, you can actually pressure with fire breath and bait out a salty wizard foot.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ganondorf used to be very poorly equipped to deal with Fire Breath thanks to bad movement stats and jump height. But the damage buff on his grounded down B lets him blast through it even on the weaker hit after this patch. I would still use Breath a healthy amount, even if he does have an answer to it. It still works just as well for covering his landings, recovery and air approach. The burden of approach was always on this guy so give yourself a large stage to run and zone.

 

[Jerodak]

The way I usually win vs Dorf is by playing SUPER campy. I get the lead, then just hang back never approach, space aerials, jabs, and tilts. Bait out laggy moves and punish hard with Bowser bomb, Flying Slam, or Forward smash. Look for chances to grab him and punish with up throw follow-ups. Backroll is pretty safe as long as you aren't right next to Dorf, and he tend to lose really hard to backroll in general. He lacks the tools to punish them reliably. If you play like this, the match up is easily in your favor.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Can a few people explain to me the Flame-Choke buff? Does he have bigger reach with that now??

Dash attack also seems to be less punishable now.

J Jerodak I will try it. My optimal strategy for Dorf is to get him in the air with a U-Throw, bait out (preferably F-Air or D-air) aerials and then punish with another grab to keep them airborne.

Where I wind up struggling is when other traits come out, typically when I'm on the defense. For example, when I shield an attack, but I get pushed out of dash-grab range, walk into obvious attacks like an F-Smash, D-Smash or F-Air, where I keep getting repeatedly flame-choked since, apparently, I can't mash out of Flame-choke -> D-tilt (or I get tech chased, which my friend is decent at) or get Ganoncided trying to edge-guard him.

Part of the reason I'm asking about this is I feel that against other Ganondorf players I do very well and can beat them very consistently, but with my friend I fall for a lot of silly stuff, which makes me frustrated...which leads to mis-inputs, sloppy play and worse choices overall. Getting over that tendency of getting frustrated, especially with my friend since we are pretty close, would help me play a lot better, I feel.

Here are two matches he uploaded. Despite my chagrin, there's something to learn here. I felt I played terribly in both matches here, but that's what happens when you dip in salt.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnGp0hT9Jc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dVVfoGs-Xy8

 

[Jerodak]

BarSoapSoup

Yeah, it seems to me like you're just being impatient. You are picking a lot of aggressive options in neutral and approaching while you have the lead. Then when you are behind you are panicking a lot and compulsively dodging or shielding.

Just looking at the start of the first match, you run in with your shield up and get grabbed for it, there wasn't really much reason to do a run-up into shield there. You were only behind by 8 percent and the match just started, so you could have taken your time and waited for a better moment to do something. Then when you did manage to get the lead, you still played aggro, so all your friend has to do is wait and play his punish game, which is exactly what he did and is largely why he is winning.

You also want to be more aware of the situation, for instance when you're on your last stock and Dorf is offstage, that's not a good time to charge upsmash at the ledge, your friend almost ganoncided you for that one. However, I did like the earlier dunk attempt on his side b. Which brings up my next point.

It looks like, due to frustration perhaps, that your punish game was a little off, and you were also either making a lot of mis-inputs which you did mention was a problem, or just going for super hard reads. In the case of inputs, those clean themselves up over time as long as you continue to practice, as far as reads go, the rule of thumb for a read is that if you do it and it works, you need to know exactly why and how it worked. If you can do that, then you can duplicate the results in subsequent matches, otherwise you most likely just got lucky and should focus your energy more on other strategies. For instance, (And just for fair warning this is going to be the start of a massive tangent.) let's look at the classic hard read, reverse forward smash. How does it work? Your opponent rolls behind you and you throw a hitbox where they will end up when their i-frames are over. Why does it work? Because you put yourself in a situation where you know your opponent wants to use that roll to end up behind you, and you know that's a situation they will roll in because you noticed them roll once in that situation, then intentionally found ways to get back into that situation throughout the match.

For instance, maybe when you jab your opponent's shield, you happen to go for the full jab combo but they manage to roll between jab 1 and 2 to get behind you and grab you for it, so you might think "Alright, so my opponent chose to roll when I hit their shield." and you save that information until you are back in a situation where your opponent is shielding again. Then you would remember this information and think "Alright, last time I jabbed shield my opponent rolled, let's see if they are willing to do it again." so this time you might just do a jab 1 then wait and see what happens and if they roll again then maybe it's a habit and you can save that information for later. Now later in the match, you're both at high percent last stock, your opponent decides to shield, so you go for jab 1 to reverse fsmash and they roll into it.

This is actually a very very simplified explanation but is about the gist of how hard reads work, you gather information on your opponent, test that information, then later use the information if it's valid or perhaps drop it if it's not. There are also certain "universal" situations where you can make reads without having to gather much information, or any at all. In Smash one such situation is your opponent landing on a platform, most players will shield when they are stuck on a platform with you nearby underneath them, it's just basic player psychology. So as Bowser, you can easily land a side b or get a down b shield break in this situation with little to no information needed on that specific player. Of course, your opponent is also aware of how that works and might choose other options instead but that's when you'll just start gathering information again and figuring out what you can do in that situation to catch that player if they happen to be avoiding the side-b or down b. Though even then, side b is still a pretty safe option regardless, if you land on the platform you will just auto-cancel and if they chose to roll or spotdodge you can likely still punish them for it depending on how it was timed, if they jumped then they are now above you and have to land again and you're probably still safe. Also, even when a player knows better, it can be difficult for them not to fall victim to deeply ingrained habits (like shielding on the platform) especially since it'll probably work at least a few times since you're not going just going to go for down b or side b each and every time. (End of tangent.)

Anyway, lag could have also been a factor, so I don't want to call you out too hard on any flubs.

Now towards the end of the matches, it looked like you just psyched yourself out super hard, your friend positioned himself pretty well in these situations and was able to exert a lot of pressure just by standing near you, this would trigger panic reactions, then he would punish them to close out the game. It helps to be wary of when you are compulsively picking options so you can remain lucid in situations like this and pick better options. Also, if you find yourself getting flustered or frustrated, take a breath, take time to hang out on the respawn platform for a bit and calm yourself down. Take a moment on the character select screen between games, but do not simply rush back in while you're still on tilt, you won't be doing yourself any favors this way.

Now as a little extra, while this didn't exactly cause you to lose or anything, it's something I think will help immensely. I notice you are not using Bowser's run skid, it's a useful option that is relevant in a lot of match-ups. Especially on the stronger members of the cast. It has pretty much all the same uses as extended dash dancing except it's easier to do and you have more options out of it. It's definitely worth practicing. The inputs are simply run, stop, run, stop, make sure you go into a full run first. At first, you can use the audible and visual ques from Bowser's footstep to time your stop, this will cause the screen to shake as you run back and forth, but eventually as you get the timing down you'll be able to run back and forth without shaking the screen at all. I recommend practicing this on battlefield since you can use the floating platforms to practice by running back and forth on them without falling off.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

BarSoapSoup

Yeah, it seems to me like you're just being impatient. You are picking a lot of aggressive options in neutral and approaching while you have the lead. Then when you are behind you are panicking a lot and compulsively dodging or shielding.

Just looking at the start of the first match, you run in with your shield up and get grabbed for it, there wasn't really much reason to do a run-up into shield there. You were only behind by 8 percent and the match just started, so you could have taken your time and waited for a better moment to do something. Then when you did manage to get the lead, you still played aggro, so all your friend has to do is wait and play his punish game, which is exactly what he did and is largely why he is winning.

You also want to be more aware of the situation, for instance when you're on your last stock and Dorf is offstage, that's not a good time to charge upsmash at the ledge, your friend almost ganoncided you for that one. However, I did like the earlier dunk attempt on his side b. Which brings up my next point.

It looks like, due to frustration perhaps, that your punish game was a little off, and you were also either making a lot of mis-inputs which you did mention was a problem, or just going for super hard reads. In the case of inputs, those clean themselves up over time as long as you continue to practice, as far as reads go, the rule of thumb for a read is that if you do it and it works, you need to know exactly why and how it worked. If you can do that, then you can duplicate the results in subsequent matches, otherwise you most likely just got lucky and should focus your energy more on other strategies. For instance, (And just for fair warning this is going to be the start of a massive tangent.) let's look at the classic hard read, reverse forward smash. How does it work? Your opponent rolls behind you and you throw a hitbox where they will end up when their i-frames are over. Why does it work? Because you put yourself in a situation where you know your opponent wants to use that roll to end up behind you, and you know that's a situation they will roll in because you noticed them roll once in that situation, then intentionally found ways to get back into that situation throughout the match.

For instance, maybe when you jab your opponent's shield, you happen to go for the full jab combo but they manage to roll between jab 1 and 2 to get behind you and grab you for it, so you might think "Alright, so my opponent chose to roll when I hit their shield." and you save that information until you are back in a situation where your opponent is shielding again. Then you would remember this information and think "Alright, last time I jabbed shield my opponent rolled, let's see if they are willing to do it again." so this time you might just do a jab 1 then wait and see what happens and if they roll again then maybe it's a habit and you can save that information for later. Now later in the match, you're both at high percent last stock, your opponent decides to shield, so you go for jab 1 to reverse fsmash and they roll into it.

This is actually a very very simplified explanation but is about the gist of how hard reads work, you gather information on your opponent, test that information, then later use the information if it's valid or perhaps drop it if it's not. There are also certain "universal" situations where you can make reads without having to gather much information, or any at all. In Smash one such situation is your opponent landing on a platform, most players will shield when they are stuck on a platform with you nearby underneath them, it's just basic player psychology. So as Bowser, you can easily land a side b or get a down b shield break in this situation with little to no information needed on that specific player. Of course, your opponent is also aware of how that works and might choose other options instead but that's when you'll just start gathering information again and figuring out what you can do in that situation to catch that player if they happen to be avoiding the side-b or down b. Though even then, side b is still a pretty safe option regardless, if you land on the platform you will just auto-cancel and if they chose to roll or spotdodge you can likely still punish them for it depending on how it was timed, if they jumped then they are now above you and have to land again and you're probably still safe. Also, even when a player knows better, it can be difficult for them not to fall victim to deeply ingrained habits (like shielding on the platform) especially since it'll probably work at least a few times since you're not going just going to go for down b or side b each and every time. (End of tangent.)

Anyway, lag could have also been a factor, so I don't want to call you out too hard on any flubs.

Now towards the end of the matches, it looked like you just psyched yourself out super hard, your friend positioned himself pretty well in these situations and was able to exert a lot of pressure just by standing near you, this would trigger panic reactions, then he would punish them to close out the game. It helps to be wary of when you are compulsively picking options so you can remain lucid in situations like this and pick better options. Also, if you find yourself getting flustered or frustrated, take a breath, take time to hang out on the respawn platform for a bit and calm yourself down. Take a moment on the character select screen between games, but do not simply rush back in while you're still on tilt, you won't be doing yourself any favors this way.

Now as a little extra, while this didn't exactly cause you to lose or anything, it's something I think will help immensely. I notice you are not using Bowser's run skid, it's a useful option that is relevant in a lot of match-ups. Especially on the stronger members of the cast. It has pretty much all the same uses as extended dash dancing except it's easier to do and you have more options out of it. It's definitely worth practicing. The inputs are simply run, stop, run, stop, make sure you go into a full run first. At first, you can use the audible and visual ques from Bowser's footstep to time your stop, this will cause the screen to shake as you run back and forth, but eventually as you get the timing down you'll be able to run back and forth without shaking the screen at all. I recommend practicing this on battlefield since you can use the floating platforms to practice by running back and forth on them without falling off.

Wow, this is a lot help! Thanks a ton, I'll definitely incorporate these in practice, since I'm aggressive there, too. Oops.

I always sorta knew what a read was, but your definition is much better - I thought it was usage of a move you know you'd hit. Granted, while I knew that's what a read was, I never really followed up on the idea and my 'reads' were more high-risk gambles.

My only question regarding Bowser's run skid is if there are notable players who do it. I know Le Troof probably makes a lot of use of it, but just to be safe.

Still, thanks for the reply! I think it will really help. I might post a match against a bot for critique later, just to be sure I'm applying concepts better and fixing my bad habits.

 

[Jerodak]

BarSoapSoup good to know that I could help! In regards to using bots, I'd be careful about that, they tend to give you bad habits and you won't be able to practice any of the mental game against them at all.

I've seen seen Le Troof use run skid before, as well as Lord Mix and Lkos.

In regards to reads, that's understandable, i'm pretty sure everyone sees them like that when they first get started. It's because as a spectator, you can't really see the moments that lead up to them unless you're actually looking for them and even then it can be hard to notice because you don't know what the players are thinking, you might end up with completely different reads.

Let me know how your rematch goes vs your friend.

 

[meleebrawler]

So Bowser is finally slated to be in Death Battle. Any guesses to his opponent? I think Astaroth from Ghosts n' Goblins would be a good fit.

 

[Ghidorah14]

So Bowser is finally slated to be in Death Battle. Any guesses to his opponent? I think Astaroth from Ghosts n' Goblins would be a good fit.

Didnt he already fight eggman like, ages ago?

 

[meleebrawler]

Didnt he already fight eggman like, ages ago?

That was just a One-Minute Melee. Completely separate from Death Battle. Also Eggman fought Dr. Wily even longer ago and they both died.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Didnt he already fight eggman like, ages ago?

That was a minute-match. No research or anything. His opponent for Death Battle will need to be very strong, seeing as Bowser has ridiculous feats.

 

[meleebrawler]

That was a minute-match. No research or anything. His opponent for Death Battle will need to be very strong, seeing as Bowser has ridiculous feats.

Spoiler: Dante vs. Bayonetta spoilers

Ridiculous feats didn't save Bayonetta...

 

[GerudoKong]

Do any of you bowsers use green bowser or know anyone who uses green bowser? I'm just curious because I'm not sure if I'm the only one who thinks this, but green bowser looks pretty disgusting.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Spoiler: Dante vs. Bayonetta spoilers

Ridiculous feats didn't save Bayonetta...

Wasn't Dante on par with Bayo, though? Bowser has survived so much it could be considered torture porn, haha

Edit: Besides, a lot of people think Death Battle hasn't always chosen the best winner, so...idk lol. The fights are entertaining to watch for sure.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Nah, what the video basically said was "lol Yamato." I can't actually argue against that either. Even the creator himself just salts over the senility of the whole thing instead of saying anything about Yamato because... you can't.

 

[herpyderpherper]

Discord is a browser based (voice) chat program.

http://smashboards.com/threads/showtime-the-bowser-discord-chat-is-now-available.427433/

do you mean a Bowser based program Kappa

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Do any of you bowsers use green bowser or know anyone who uses green bowser? I'm just curious because I'm not sure if I'm the only one who thinks this, but green bowser looks pretty disgusting.

Please. I love green Wowser.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Please. I love green Wowser.

I always thought Green Bowser was a pretty decent looking skin. If I had to pick a skin, I'd definitely run Melee Black, but I find myself using the default more. The only skin I find butt-ugly (and it's lack of context makes me like it even less) is Yellow Bowser. It just looks gross lol

Edited for typos

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I always thought yellow Bowser was gross too. I dont even know what its supposed to represent. People say it looks a lot like Dio from JoJo's lel.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I always thought yellow Bowser was gross too. I dont even know what its supposed to represent. People say it looks a lot like Dio from JoJo's lel.

Funny, everyone in my area calls it 'Super Saiyan Bowser' lol

Edit: On representation, it literally had no history. I think it and maybe one other skin are completely new to Smash with no context whatsoever.

 

[pitfall356]

I like yellow Bowser since it makes me think "saiyan." I'd use it if I honestly believed myself to be super pro, as that's what I think the skin is for lmao.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Yeah but...all of the other skins look better...

 

[Jerodak]

I usually refer to the two Green pallates as "Classic" and "Army" or "Soldier".

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I seriously think the blue one is the worst. Sorry but blue just doesnt look good at all with Bowser's design. Even Black Bowser from Mario&Luigi RPG3, wich is if i remember right the only time we saw a blue Bowser in a game looked terrible.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I seriously think the blue one is the worst. Sorry but blue just doesnt look good at all with Bowser's design. Even Black Bowser from Mario&Luigi RPG3, wich is if i remember right the only time we saw a blue Bowser in a game looked terrible.

Dark Bowser looked fine, I think. Just depends on the tint.

 

[ZIO]

What are your thoughts on this Bidou tech? Will it make Bowser much improved? Has anyone given it a shot?

IMO, I have been playing this game because its solid, but there was no exploit that would divide the players between those who do, and those who don't. Such as Melee and it's wavedashing and the like. I felt I could easily get into it and not feel intimidated with the existence of daunting techs. With this bidou tech, I am starting to worry that if I want to stand up to be moderately competitive that I'd have to learn it. I mean just for playing online. Because I played last night and a Cloud player was making use of it and I could not find an opening as a Bowser on a standard control scheme.

I am getting haunting memories of how the Mario Kart DS online community became. It was all snaking at some point and it killed all the fun. The only response to it all, too, was "git gud". Which will likely be the case for this as well should Bidou take hold.

I'm not knocking this, either. It looks like it has great potential and could make Sm4sh into as great a spectator sport as Melee is. But for me, I mean. I am disappointed in it. Because I do not want to devote time to familiarize myself to it just so that I could remain competitive. I was just getting into this game.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Hello, im a melee player and i cant resist to try to f* the fun outta half Smah 4's community in a nutshell.

 

[Cronoc]

What are your thoughts on this Bidou tech? Will it make Bowser much improved? Has anyone given it a shot?

IMO, I have been playing this game because its solid, but there was no exploit that would divide the players between those who do, and those who don't. Such as Melee and it's wavedashing and the like. I felt I could easily get into it and not feel intimidated with the existence of daunting techs. With this bidou tech, I am starting to worry that if I want to stand up to be moderately competitive that I'd have to learn it. I mean just for playing online. Because I played last night and a Cloud player was making use of it and I could not find an opening as a Bowser on a standard control scheme.

I am getting haunting memories of how the Mario Kart DS online community became. It was all snaking at some point and it killed all the fun. The only response to it all, too, was "git gud". Which will likely be the case for this as well should Bidou take hold.

I'm not knocking this, either. It looks like it has great potential and could make Sm4sh into as great a spectator sport as Melee is. But for me, I mean. I am disappointed in it. Because I do not want to devote time to familiarize myself to it just so that I could remain competitive. I was just getting into this game.

Bidou is certainly interesting, but until top players start using it I think we're safe. Bowser won't get as much off it as many other characters, unfortunately. Bidou has been known for some time already, we'll see if the current swell of talk results in anything beyond "look what I can do in this gif" talk.

 

[ZIO]

Fair enough.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Bidou is certainly interesting, but until top players start using it I think we're safe. Bowser won't get as much off it as many other characters, unfortunately. Bidou has been known for some time already, we'll see if the current swell of talk results in anything beyond "look what I can do in this gif" talk.

I think that there's some potential development possible in Bowser's meta surrounding PP jab and PP forward turnaround jab, that improves his spacing game and limits opponents' approach on Bowser even further. I've only ever been able to do PP forward turnarounds with Bidou, and I find in Bowser's case switching between buffered special and non-buffered special is easier because he's always Side-B'ing his landings anyway.

The only other thing I'm interested in is the PP crouch, to see if anything can be done with down tilt. That, and maybe PP spot-dodge, even though that's unlikely to help with Bowser's short PP.

I think I'd like more than anything to know to do these things without giving up C-stick tilts, though. I can PP jab just fine and I find it solves the problem of when they're too close to Klaw and you don't want to commit to a turnaround grab attempt or Fortress.

 

[atticusfinch7]

Utilt seems like a underrated option for bowser. Hitbox is perhaps the biggest out of any utilt in the game so it's a great anti-air that is safer than Usmash. 9 damage isn't a whole lot but it helps more than I previously thought.

 

[Cronoc]

CreamyFatone yeah I'm not giving up c-stick aerials :/

Utilt seems like a underrated option for bowser. Hitbox is perhaps the biggest out of any utilt in the game so it's a great anti-air that is safer than Usmash. 9 damage isn't a whole lot but it helps more than I previously thought.

Utilt is great for specific uses, like catching people when you're not entirely sure which side of Bowser they'll land on, for it's coverage when people are on ledges above him, out of uthrow and low percents, beating characters who don't have disjointed aerials, and occasionally as a sort of soft combo into nair. Also for getting random kills on lighter characters around 130%. But there are matchups where utilt will get punished for being too slow (both in startup and endlag). But it has all sorts of uses, as long as there's enough time to throw it safely.

 

[GerudoKong]

So I'm starting to figure out that a lot of seemingly "bad" matchups for bowser are about neutral if you play patiently enough

 

[CreamyFatone]

So I'm starting to figure out that a lot of seemingly "bad" matchups for bowser are about neutral if you play patiently enough

Yes, if you are flawless with perfect shield and spacing for projectile spammers and amazing at reading approaches with jab, pivot grab, and OOS fortress for characters with better frame data. Otherwise, the margin for human error for the Bowser player is much smaller than for characters with safe pressure options, as far as losing neutral is concerned. For example, you can running Powershield Villy's slingshot and Lyoid all the way up until he's cornered at the ledge where you have stage control, but if you miss just one you usually end up stuck burning shield or other costly evasive options.

It's one of the obstacles of playing the dragon turtle, but honestly it might be one of my favorite things to overcome as a Bowser player. I love when a game against a Ness starts, and I run in, Powershield PK fire, and dash grab before the GO leaves the screen and I know this Ness player is going to be scared to PK fire me for the whole match. I feel like skill for a Bowser player is more about standing your ground harder than it is about hard reads.

 

[GerudoKong]

Is there any real advantage to the "skid stop" jab over running, shielding, then jabbing? It doesn't seem to me like the skid is faster but I've seen people here say its useful .

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

IIRC skid stop is 8 frames. Putting up shield is 1 frame + 13 frames before shield drop if nothing hits your shield. I have a feeling I'm missing something, though. Lost in thoughts, you might say.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

putting up and putting down shield takes 18 frames. It was 14 in Brawl, but they increased the amount you are locked into shield by four - 11+7 to shield drop. There's only a few characters where running shield is faster than their skid stop. Off the top of my head, DK, Samus, and Luigi. But the benefit of having a shield up for 11 of those frames makes it a decent approach option for a variety of situatuions, usually with the intent of shield grabbing after breaking their zone.

...why'd they stiff me with Leonardo? All of the Dawn Brigade is crap, and they give me the one that's bow-locked?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^ Nolen carried fools.