Brawl 64 - Don't Get Hit

[Meru.]

Give Peach float cancel back or make the ending lag of all of her moves cancelable with a jump/jab. :D

 

[NeoZ]

With precise timing, it's significantly more powerful. I mean quite ridiculously powerful, as in it would be simply game breaking if it weren't a (nearly) fully charged FSmash. Think of it as one of the ultimate shield break punishers.

Yes, because shields being broken will be something that happens a lot in a game where you have 8 jumps and can airdodge out of stuff.
People will just stay grounded and shield, while their opponent is flying around the stage.

I don't mean this in a bad way, but try to make mechanics work with each other, some of the things you said(like what I quoted) seem to be getting in just because you thought it would be cool, without thinking if it would work or not.

It's clear you are aiming for a more aerial game, just keep that in mind when you design other things.

 

[MonkUnit]

dBrawl: You learn that you can change one jump attribute and now it's the focus of the game...

 

[Slashy]

Hybrid Air Dodge is MUCH more useful than an extra jump that many characters can't even benefit from.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This seems doomed to failure. Most of the design elements planned seem gimmicky at best (everyone gets another jump? Really?), and the OP is rife with misinformation about how brawl actually works (lol@peach not being viable because of metaknight). The idea of scrapping Toon Link is as ludicrous as your reasoning for doing so; what's the replacement gonna be?

Amazing Ampharos can tell you all about the dangers of homogenizing characters, and that appears to be what you're doing.

Many of the changes you are proposing (hover nozzle, yoshi's shield, sopo being selectable, etc.) are between completely impossible and obscenely hard; most of the changes you are proposing are either heavily homogenizing (giving everyone kill throws, giving everyone more jumps, giving luigi more traction, etc), many are flat-out ******** (removing diddy's banans, giving yoshi 3 GIGANTIC ARMORED JUMPS, removing nanas grabs, making DDD's dthrow a kill move (???), basically everything you've written for CF, I could pretty much keep going on this...). A lot of it (Diddy's nanas, MK's tornado, johning about DDD's grab range) feels like a scrub complaining about aspects of the top tiers. And for the record: removing MK's transcendant priority is buffing him, and giving bowser 5% heavy armor is the kind of buff that virtually nobody will care about outside of a very select few.

Honestly, I don't see anything worthwhile coming out of this when you seem hell-bent on recreating characters who are perfectly legitimate, removing moves that are well-made without reason (or trying to redesign them!), and removing elements that make characters special and unique (seriously? Tippers? Are you CRAZY?).

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

That was tactless of you BPC.... but you make excellent points.

 

[libertyernie]

Is the only reason TL is out is because you don't want two Links? Character inclusion, in my opinion, should be based on how different they play and should have nothing to do with who they happen to be.
Also, merging Link and Toon Link together seems like it will upset anyone who mains either of them.
As for the rest of the plans, I have nothing to say, because I know nothing about competitive gameplay.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That was tactless of you BPC.... but you make excellent points.

I tend not to beat around the bush when it's not a situation where I'm pleading with someone to please accept that I'm right (stages).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I've actually been putting a lot of thought into this. I'm actually leaning towards scrapping extra jumps and putting in hybrid air dodge, actually.

SoPo being selectable is actually fairly easy. There's no particular reason you would ever want to do so, it is merely another option. Hover nozzle and a proper shield for yoshi, things like that, are low priority. If I can do these things, I will.

I was merely using the Peach vs. MK MU as an example, there was probably a much, much better example, but I was in a bit of a hurry when I originally wrote it out.

I've actually reconsidered my stance on kill throws. I'm not 100% sure on how I am going to approach them at this point, but certainly not that way.

I am NOT scrapping Toon Link. I very quickly realized just how stupid that would be. I also forgot to remove that from the OP when I updated my proposed changelist.

The removal of Nana's grab remains unless you have some other way to prevent IC's infinites. Even if I were to change up the throws so that the player always ends up above them - which would be stupid - they can simply grab release.

I actually just realized I still had loads of double jumps listed for Yoshi. I actually scrapped that pretty early in my plans for this, it's what I get for copy-pasting.

Tippers are definitely going to stay. I blame exhaustion, I wrote this out on New Year's Day, posted it the next day. I genuinely thought it would be a good idea at the time.

Keep the criticism coming BPC. Very much appreciated.

As to Bowser's new FSmash, he never really had anything cannon that could properly be used as a FSmash, so I'm using his punch from Bowser's Inside Story. Though I've thought about it, and fully charging it will function just like everyone else, no reason to change something like that.


As to Diddy, the more I think about it, the more I realize just how well-designed a character he is, but I can't help but think there must be some other thing he could have instead of Bananas. I'm beginning to think more and more I just don't like the bananas, so I'm definitely leaning towards leaving them in rather than screw up Diddy by trying to replace them.

 

[Gust14]

If you're making characters closer to their originl games then you should change or at least revamp the specials of Ness and Lucas. Aside from Pkflash, Ness dosen't use any of his other b attacks in Earthbound, Lucas dosen't even have one right, instead they use atttacks from the other characterters of their games.

Pk Fire could be Paralisis
Pk Thunder could be Teleport
Pk Magnet could be Heal or Shield
Pk starstorm could be Pk rocking for Ness and Pk love for Lucas

An idea could be chaging the fx and the sfx to match their canon attacks:
Pk fire becomes electricity to match paralisys, Pk thunder's thunderball becomes a magical flash and ness transforms into a flash when hitting himself to match teleport, Pk magnet stays the same cause it matches both heal or shield. Pk starstorm's meteors could be replaced with musical notes for Pk rocking and hearts for Pk love.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If you're making characters closer to their originl games then you should change or at least revamp the specials of Ness and Lucas. Aside from Pkflash, Ness dosen't use any of his other b attacks in Earthbound, Lucas dosen't even have one right, instead they use atttacks from the other characterters of their games.

Pk Fire could be Paralisis
Pk Thunder could be Teleportation
Pk Magnet could be Heal or Shield
Pk starstorm could be Pk rocking for Ness and Pk love for Lucas

An idea could be chaging the fx and the sfx to match their canon attacks:
Pk fire becomes electricity to match paralisys, Pk thunder's thunderball becomes a magical flash and ness transforms into a flash when hitting himself to match teleportation, Pk magnet stays the same cause it matches both heal or shield. Pk starstorm's meteors could be replaced with musical notes for Pk rocking and hearts for Pk love.

First of all, PSI Magnet. PK are offensive techniques, PSI are defensive.
Second, I will get to them when I do. Just know that I will be messing with their specials, but right now I'm more trying to iron out my major design flaws.

I think I need to get skype or something to talk with people more knowledgeable about how the game works.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Most of BPC's points still stand Supreme Dirt, what is coming out of this?

 

[TL?]

The following cannot return, as they alter the base mechanics or are ********.

* Brawl does not have momentum capture, neither will dBrawl
* Hitstun will remain unchanged
* Hitlag will not be removed

I can't see this mod going very far with these rules. BB took an approach like this and it's the least popular hack(of the hacks that matter). If you're not going to change the base mechanics then your hack will not stand out. A little more hitstun would bring much more depth into the game with predicting DI and teching. With no hitstun, all you need is quick, safe moves. All the combo starter/finisher type moves are useless resulting in less depth.

I'm also very confused as to why everyone's getting extra jumps. Brawl's recovery game is already easier than any other smash game with it's low gravity, giant ledge grab reach, and auto snap up B's. With more jumps, the only thing ledges will be used for is planking.

 

[Zef]

uh-huh... gl hf

 

[Scufo]

@SD

While it's cool that you're taking peoples' criticism seriously, the amount of backpedaling going on is becoming pretty silly. Are any of the sweeping changes you mentioned in the OP going to make it in? And if not, how does this project stand out from others?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Essentially... everything really special about this project just seems like a bad idea. And that's not even getting into the whole audience conflict (how are you going to fit into a niche not already filled by the 4 existing big mods?)...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Exactly, find a niche that hasn't been used and that people will enjoy. Say... making Brawl like Smash 64... or traditional fighters... whatever.

OR

Lend your talents to a different project like Brawl- of Project M.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lend your talents to a different project like Brawl-.

PROJECT MELEE HAS ENOUGH CODERS. For srs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wasn't aware it was possible to have too much of a good thing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It is. Especially if you're not project mele.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Especially since I'm not project mele.

Spoiler

lolwut

 

[Supreme Dirt]

GrimFandango, I'm not quite sure how you did it, but you seem to have read my mind.

Or at least part of it.

Basically, I have 3 possible ways in which I may take this mod.

Firstly, I am highly considering a mod designed around item play. However, I'm not wholly sure if someone figured out how to edit Items or not. I remember Dant was working on it waaay back, but I don't recall if he actually finished.

Second, a possible mod designed specifically around team play as the primary format. I'm not entirely sure exactly what such a mod would entail, so it probably will not end up happening; probably will leave the execution of such a mod to someone who knows what to do.

Third is the one that GrimFandango mentioned, which I've been considering more and more over the past day or two. A Project 64 if you will.

I am very much leaning towards the third one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd much prefer 1 or 2 over 3, but 3 would definitely be the easiest and most straight-forward.

I really appreciate how you are taking everyone's criticism, it's quite professional of you to not get riled up when people question your ideas so blatantly.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Item play hacks would be interesting... The game really hardly needs more to be good for teams.

 

[MonkUnit]

You seem to be changing constantly, Supreme Dirt, this project doesn't have any idea what it is doing right now. I suggest you buckle down, get the idea you want, and start working towards that. You have bounced around from like 5 ideas from OMG SO MANY JUMPS all the way to SSB64. Pick one and stick with it.

 

[kaizo13]

I'm not an "item person" but......i think balancing and designing the game around item play would be the most original and worth-making option out of the other ideas. I mean.....it hasn't been done yet and can possibly turn out to be pretty fun with some hard work/good ideas.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, basically it's more I need to pick an idea and stick with it.

And I have. I'll be updating the first post.

If it takes too long to get this project in gear (more than about a week) I'm just going to ask a mod to close it, and I'll get it reopened once I get it together.

 

[Shadic]

..Now it's Project 64? You realize that name is already taken, right?

Not to mention if you're remaking Smash64, you better realize how much of the mechanics from that game are going to need to be perfectly replicated. No Smash64 player is going to give the game a second glance otherwise.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

..Now it's Project 64? You realize that name is already taken, right?

Not to mention if you're remaking Smash64, you better realize how much of the mechanics from that game are going to need to be perfectly replicated. No Smash64 player is going to give the game a second glance otherwise.

I'm well aware of what I'm getting myself into with this. I'm also well aware that this is going to take a really, really long time. But as I've mentioned, for the next couple of years time is all I have.

Also, it's really more a placeholder name than anything.

 

[King Funk]

As a smash 64 player from Europe, I can test for you if you want pro feedback. =D

 

[Supreme Dirt]

That'll be great. I'm guessing it's just codes that have to be converted for PAL, correct?

Going to order a USB Gecko tonight and start learning assembly for the Wii. Undoubtedly there are going to be such things that need assembly. Going to start however with those things that I can edit at the moment.

 

[standardtoaster]

...What sort of things would you need assembly for? I can port a code for you as best I can if need be. You need some codes to make it 64-esque, right? I'll get on that now.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm not entirely sure, actually.

Right now, I'm working on trying to figure out exactly what values were in 64. Weight, etc. Also, I think I have to reduce character size by quite a bit, as 64 stages were HUGE. Going to probably do frame data tonight for 64.

Also, did Dant ever figure out how to edit Fighter.pac completely, or are we still stuck using codes to do that?

 

[Zef]

brawl 64, i...

AM OKAY WITH THIS

 

[Fireblaster]

I'm not entirely sure, actually.

Right now, I'm working on trying to figure out exactly what values were in 64. Weight, etc. Also, I think I have to reduce character size by quite a bit, as 64 stages were HUGE. Going to probably do frame data tonight for 64.

Also, did Dant ever figure out how to edit Fighter.pac completely, or are we still stuck using codes to do that?

Please don't make huge stages. One of the current debates over high level competitive smash 64 is regarding the size of the stages and how they can help stalling and lead to extremely long matches.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Fair enough, that's the kind of thing I need to know.

 

[standardtoaster]

We still use codes to edit fighter.pac. It's easier than reworking fighter.pac anyway. Here are some codes you can start using. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to wall/ceiling tech anymore, but please, just check to see if you still can.

No smash charging [Standardtoaster]
04FB2A10 0000002C
04FB2C28 0000002E
04FB2D10 00000032

No air/spot dodging [Standardtoaster]
04FB18F4 00020000
04FB18FC 00020000
06FC2068 00000018
00020000 00000000
00020000 00000000
00020000 00000000

No side special [Standardtoaster]
04B88380 40000000

No wall/ceiling tech [Standardtoaster]
04FB3EC4 00020000
04FB3ECC 00020000

Powershield Window Modifier [spunit262]
04B88F20 00000000

 

[Gowa]

if you've seen the social thread from the 64 boards supreme dirt, then you'll understand this:

Gowa reporting for duty

 

[Titus_178]

As a smash 64 player, i think Brawl 64 could be awesome if done correctly. It could make people who don't play it because of its oldness discover a game like smash 64. Also what Fireblaster said, you should work on stages at the end so we can test them and make them the right size. Good luck for this project

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh that's great.

I'd forgotten you couldn't wall or ceiling tech actually. This is perfect. I think I'll need to discuss inclusion of side specials with 64 players, though. Now to get a hitstun value.

How do I go about removing ability to cancel hitstun with attacks?