Brawl+ Character Balance Discussions: Character 3: LUCAS

[goodoldganon]

Hello fellow Brawl+ players! Before we begin, those of us in the Backroom would like to thank all of you for you patience in updates, your vigor in testing the codesets, and your overall love of the project. The coders knowing that you guys are getting full enjoyment out of these codesets makes all the hard work the put into this project worthwhile.

Now, the Backroom would like to try a little experiment that should help us wrap up the last pieces of this project. With most of the actual new physics of Brawl+ in place and finalized we can finally sit down and work out the character balance.

This will be a thread used to discuss the characters that the community truly doesn't have much experience with as well as the characters we don't hear much about. In order to have a post that will be taken seriously, try and provide us with reasons why your buff will help that character. Here is an example.

WARIO

Let's speed up his D-tilt a little to give him more options on the approach, or at least a good ground one. The Stinky Finger poke has good range (for Wario), pokes low, and sets up to combos pretty well. Add that with dash dancing and canceling and we can give Wario a usable ground approach. Something he severely lacks.

We can debate whether Wario needs this buff or not at a later time, but hopefully you can see what kind of suggestions we are looking for.

Now it's time for our third character, Mother 3 physic Boy Wonder, Lucas. Lucas is a newcomer to the Smash Bros scene and the second Mother character added to the roster. At first Lucas gained lots of popularity thanks to his 'wavebouncing' specials, but he was swept under the rug as soon as the popular Fire Emblem Lord Marth had a grab release infinite on him.

Being a newcomer, Lucas has no past iterations to base his character playstyle on. Of course this doesn't mean that he can't be fixed. Currently Lucas is in kind of an odd spot and is tough to classify. He isn't combo character, he isn't a pursuit character, and he certainly isn't a heavy weight, so what is he? We have granted Lucas a faster U-tilt and less cooldown on his grab to increase his combo game as well as fixing the grab release infinites on him, Ness, and Wario.

So what do you, the community, think of the physic Boy Wonder Lucas? Please keep the ideas constructive and the posts intelligent. We thank you for all your work and hope you guys can continue to support the project through these last few steps.

From here on out we will be discussing

LUCAS​

Stop by the IRC to test out any new Beta codesets! We love seeing you guys in the IRC chatting it up and offering feedback. Sadly, we have no tentative release date for Beta 4, but get pumped because it's gonna be big! Hopefully Lucas will go as well as the other two have... ANNNNNNDDDDDDD GOOOOOO!

 

[CloneHat]

Bowser is really hard to approach in the air, and is really easy to kill off the top.
But it's impossible to get damage on him 'cause he can't be comboed.

He doesn't have any problems IMO.

 

[GHNeko]

I think he's pretty good. His floatyness and thick skin help out with his combo issue.

I think a buff that would be nice for Bowser is a knockback buff to his Up B. But that's my own opinion. Maybe a larger window for grab release follow ups since its only 3 frames for him IIRC, and that isnt even enough for a follow up jab.


Other than that, he looks fine. You have to play him differently due to lack of grab release and the ISJR for Bowser is pretty much null due to buffer.

 

[Iamthemovie]

The only major thing I can think of right now is:
~3 frames of invincibility or SA in the beginning of his Fortress.

Other slight changes may be readjusting his dtilt hitboxes and buffing nair knockback. Dair can go and screw itself. I still favor a Bowser that is heavily relying on grab release for following up with his attacks (not to the extent where he can infinite grab them but follow up with a ftilt/sideB/dtilt/jabs).

Since Bowser is mainly tank, his major focus is to shield his opponents' attacks and retaliate with an upB or a grab.

 

[supersonicridley]

He seems to really have his survival boosted. I think he Is pretty good as he is. The only thing I would say to do is to remove the special ending lag from his whirling fortress. and mabye make it a little bit faster starting up.

 

[CloneHat]

If you're going to make the up b a kill move I suggest you take away one of the tilt buffs. Or else his KO options would be like, 10 moves, 6 of them really fast.

 

[GHNeko]

He seems to really have his survival boosted. I think he Is pretty good as he is. The only thing I would say to do is to remove the special ending lag from his whirling fortress. and mabye make it a little bit faster starting up.

lolwut. Up B has 50% landing lag in 4.0 beta. D:


Dont tell me you want to buff that more.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

From what I've played, I've noticed Bowser is a lot harder to kill, but it's still easy to string together attacks because of his size, but his enhanced ability to punish is very suiting for the kind of character he is. However, despite him being good (you guys did a great job, and we can ship him how he is, tbh), he's not "that good". He's not near the level of ROB and GW of lameness of all those guys, who have ridiculous spacing, recovery and combos and finishing. I in no way believe that we should make characters good at everything, but I think with our newly founded vast amount of space, I think we have a great opportunity to do somethings creative with the characters.

In my opinion, speeding up tilts and aerials and all that jazz is all fun and dandy, but you guys have to realize the amount of potential there is in making this game.

I really think that if we want to make every character be on the same level as the top tiers, we need to give them all something ridiculous(ly cool).

That is why I propose bowser to have super armor (think snake) frames on his crawl (not much, like 3-5 dmg super armor) and crouch. i don't know what this would do, but I think it would be really awesome.

But, I'm just babbling. He's pretty **** good as he is (as of shanus' unreleased beta) and the fact that I'm proposing such a outlandish idea is probably a good indication of such.

 

[Swordplay]

Neko

I kind of like up-B. Its a fantastic defensive move. but if it did have a little more knockback and the hit was angled upwards he may be able to do a follow up to help his defensive-offensive game.

Then again, this may not be possible because of how long it lasts

 

[Greenpoe]

Bowser is really, really good...but is it truly wise to spend an entire week on one character? Why not two or three? At one character per week, it'll take nearly a year to get through all the cast, and by that point, Brawl+ metagame will have changed vastly.

I really think that if we want to make every character be on the same level as the top tiers, we need to give them all something ridiculous(ly cool).

That is why I propose bowser to have super armor (think snake) frames on his crawl (not much, like 3-5 dmg super armor) and crouch. i don't know what this would do, but I think it would be really awesome.

But, I'm just babbling. He's pretty **** good as he is (as of shanus' unreleased beta) and the fact that I'm proposing such a outlandish idea is probably a good indication of such.

I like this idea, or maybe crouch-canceling for Bowser only. If it makes him too good, we could add some extra ending lag to some of his moves (that way, he's fast-but-slow).

 

[:034:]

Going off the old thread's method:

Endurance - A, with the Thick Shell and being a heavy, he's one of the best in Endurance. However, he's still really big and an easy target... Being able to survive is one point, but another is not getting hit at all. A big shield really adds up, but no solid spotdodge is hurting. Still, I'd say Thick Shell really saves his butt... I mean shell. (The character's ability to survive attacks.)

Gimp Resistence - E, a terrible recovery that doesn't go far (relative to other's recoveries). It's only good point is the hitbox. Hardly any counters in midair (arguably only fair) to avoid being gimped... Just not much. (The character's ability to return to the stage and avoid being gimped.)

Mobility - E, Bowser isn't made to be moving around the stage. A small dashdance and slow walk reduces the amount of options while moving. Bowser is a steadfast character that can hold his ground, so there's no point in moving really really fast. Only good thing is his high dash speed, which combined with dash cancelling can give quite a sudden suprise to the opponent. (The character's overall ability to move around the stage.)

Resilience - E, even the Thick Shell perk makes it insanely hard NOT to get hit by combo's... The only good thing is his shield, which is really big, he won't get shield stabbed easily and it's harder to apply shield pressure. His shield 'n' shell are the only thing saving him from the terrible F. (The character's ability to avoid strings or combos.)

Spacing - C, Bowser's tilts and jabs have high range, and with the added speed they are a much needed help to his spacing. His up+b can also be used as a spacing tool, but only a little. Aerial movement isn't very good, but his aerials have a nice amount of range to them. All in all an average C. (The character's ability to use attacks to maintain the optimal distance from an enemy.)

GTFO of Me - B, again with the help of higher speed tilts and good jabs. Up+B OoS is still a good replacement when you can't shieldgrab. His big shield helps a little as well. Unfortunately, Bowser lacks the (ab)usability of his grab releases... And his laggy grab is a problem. However, he still has very damaging throws. And don't forget about DAT KLAW. (The characters's ability to shieldgrab or knock a nearby opponent away that fails at his offense or defense.)

Approach - D, it's not very good and you should generally not approach your opponent when they're on the defensive. Provoking them by walking into their range and using your jabs can put the pressure on your opponent... They'll want to counter you, but you can't let them. But why a D and not an E? Well, his lag was diminished, fair can still be autocancelled and he still has the (albeit harder to perform) Klaw Hop. His Fire is also still useful. (The character's ability to pressure an opponent's defense.)

Follow-Ups - D, now I honestly don't know a whole lot about Bowser's follow-ups... Generally, I'm pretty sure you can combo out of grabs and forward B, his aerials have a lag reduction... But to be honest, Bowser isn't a combo-y character... Wreck 'em with power hits instead! (The character's ability to build damage through a successful punish or a successful approach.)

Combo Finisher - B, how do you like that fair, bair, all of his smashes and even his tilts?! He has a lot of quick finishing moves to end a combo or string. Problem is, you don't have that many combo's to begin with... Which brings us to the next point! (The character's ability to end a combo/string with a finishing move.)

Punish KOs - S, have you SEEN those smashes?! They all kill easily, and with stale moves being removed, Bowser's tilts are also higher on their power. Bowser is really a punishment character, so stand fast, tighten your defense and come out with a big punch. (The characters ability to KO an opponent due to a failed offense/defense.)

Gimping - F, Bowser can't really go off stage to kill people, and against people who can effectively sweetspot, you just can't do a whole lot. Still, charged downsmash near the edge is brutal. But like I said, against people effectively sweetspotting, you're better off relying on predicting their get-up move and punishing that. Your only off-stage saving grace is fair... Being this low on options is actually kind of unfair (hahahaha) but Bowser just ain't that kind o' guy. (The character's ability to keep a recovering opponent off the stage.)

S - Muahahaah!! 10 points!!
A - Sublime! 8 points!
B - Very good! 6 points!
C - Average. 5 points.
D - Not very good. 4 points.
E - This sucks! 2 points...
F - Just get outta here! 0 points...

Summary:
Endurance - A
Gimp Resistence - E
Mobility - E
Resilience - E
Spacing - C
GTFO of Me - B
Approach - D
Follow-Ups - D
Combo Finisher - B
Punish KOs - S
Gimping - F

Getting Bowser a solid...:

51 out of 110 points.

That's a pretty fine score for a defensive character in an offensive game. Just enough to net him a mid tier score to me.



Feel free to take this post with a grain of salt - I'm just sharing my opinions. Also, 1 character per week = not good. Do a character every 2-3 days to quicken it up a notch.

 

[Adetque]

I don't think he should get an F at gimping. Without Autosweetspot ledges, his fire easily gimps people at the ledge.

 

[Shell]

He feels really good right now.

I might experiment with the return of the semi-spiking Bair for gimping, though (leave KB alone). I'd easily trade some additional lag for more useful arials. I don't use too many arials other than the Uair, with a little Bair and Fair mixed in.

Semi-spike Bair and change 40% ALR to 45% ALR

Just something to mess around with.

Jiang's idea sounds tantilizing, but almost certainly too good, as crouch -> dtilt would be very hard to stop.

 

[Revven]

I like the idea of increasing KB on Bowser's Fsmash, it never kills and is pretty unreliable until like 120%. It should kill MUCH earlier than that for how slow of a move it is.

Other than that, his throws could use some changes, I know Cape is wanting to do something with Uthrow and Dthrow (lower their Base Knockbacks) to make them more useful for startups instead of trying to frame perfect his release grab combos.

For the most part, that's what I think he needs and then he's done.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Bowser is awesome! The ONLY thing I went is more vertical knockback from dair when the opponent is in the air to make it "spike", and thats just for fun.

Everything else is awesome.

I love his dair as is now though. Dair to any ground attack WORKS if performed right and they miss the tech. And it's great for tech chasing too.

FSMASH killing at 120%? What the hell? I've hit people from the middle of stage and killed them at 89% easy when both hits connect.

 

[Iamthemovie]

Bowser's fsmash is two hits, with ~45% total right? I think one of the problems I had KOing with his Fsmash in vB was that most people would DI upward the first hit so then the second hit won't connect. I'm not sure about this in B+ though...

 

[wazgood]

How about some downB invincibility?

 

[Greenpoe]

Bowser's fsmash is two hits, with ~45% total right? I think one of the problems I had KOing with his Fsmash in vB was that most people would DI upward the first hit so then the second hit won't connect. I'm not sure about this in B+ though...

Higher hitstun+lower hitlag=That shouldn't be a problem, unless maybe they smash DI.

 

[supersonicridley]

lolwut. Up B has 50% landing lag in 4.0 beta. D:


Dont tell me you want to buff that more.

I didnt know that he had that. now that I do. I think its fine :D

 

[cman]

How about some downB invincibility?

Is his down b still escapable if the first catch-hitbox hits when using it on the ground?

 

[GHNeko]

Is his down b still escapable if the first catch-hitbox hits when using it on the ground?

Actually, I think his down B would do better with super armor. That attack does not look nor feel like it should be interrupted on the way up.

 

[goodoldganon]

The down-B does have good knockback from my experience and decent priority, just missing it has a ton of lag.

 

[GHNeko]

The down-B does have good knockback from my experience and decent priority, just missing it has a ton of lag.

Which is why super armor would be a good idea.

It adds to his Boozer Dont Care persona but missing it is riskier than if it had invici frames, but less than it is now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

an idea: let's make bowsers down B smash you into the ground like DK's forward B XD

 

[GHNeko]

an idea: let's make bowsers down B smash you into the ground like DK's forward B XD

Bowser would **** harder than DK would with something like that.

 

[goodoldganon]

This has been a good thread so far guys. Keep the ideas coming and intelligent.

 

[Mr.-0]

Going off the old thread's method:

Endurance - A, with the Thick Shell and being a heavy, he's one of the best in Endurance. However, he's still really big and an easy target... Being able to survive is one point, but another is not getting hit at all. A big shield really adds up, but no solid spotdodge is hurting. Still, I'd say Thick Shell really saves his butt... I mean shell. (The character's ability to survive attacks.)

Gimp Resistence - E, a terrible recovery that doesn't go far (relative to other's recoveries). It's only good point is the hitbox. Hardly any counters in midair (arguably only fair) to avoid being gimped... Just not much. (The character's ability to return to the stage and avoid being gimped.)

Mobility - E, Bowser isn't made to be moving around the stage. A small dashdance and slow walk reduces the amount of options while moving. Bowser is a steadfast character that can hold his ground, so there's no point in moving really really fast. Only good thing is his high dash speed, which combined with dash cancelling can give quite a sudden suprise to the opponent. (The character's overall ability to move around the stage.)

Resilience - E, even the Thick Shell perk makes it insanely hard NOT to get hit by combo's... The only good thing is his shield, which is really big, he won't get shield stabbed easily and it's harder to apply shield pressure. His shield 'n' shell are the only thing saving him from the terrible F. (The character's ability to avoid strings or combos.)

Spacing - C, Bowser's tilts and jabs have high range, and with the added speed they are a much needed help to his spacing. His up+b can also be used as a spacing tool, but only a little. Aerial movement isn't very good, but his aerials have a nice amount of range to them. All in all an average C. (The character's ability to use attacks to maintain the optimal distance from an enemy.)

GTFO of Me - B, again with the help of higher speed tilts and good jabs. Up+B OoS is still a good replacement when you can't shieldgrab. His big shield helps a little as well. Unfortunately, Bowser lacks the (ab)usability of his grab releases... And his laggy grab is a problem. However, he still has very damaging throws. And don't forget about DAT KLAW. (The characters's ability to shieldgrab or knock a nearby opponent away that fails at his offense or defense.)

Approach - D, it's not very good and you should generally not approach your opponent when they're on the defensive. Provoking them by walking into their range and using your jabs can put the pressure on your opponent... They'll want to counter you, but you can't let them. But why a D and not an E? Well, his lag was diminished, fair can still be autocancelled and he still has the (albeit harder to perform) Klaw Hop. His Fire is also still useful. (The character's ability to pressure an opponent's defense.)

Follow-Ups - D, now I honestly don't know a whole lot about Bowser's follow-ups... Generally, I'm pretty sure you can combo out of grabs and forward B, his aerials have a lag reduction... But to be honest, Bowser isn't a combo-y character... Wreck 'em with power hits instead! (The character's ability to build damage through a successful punish or a successful approach.)

Combo Finisher - B, how do you like that fair, bair, all of his smashes and even his tilts?! He has a lot of quick finishing moves to end a combo or string. Problem is, you don't have that many combo's to begin with... Which brings us to the next point! (The character's ability to end a combo/string with a finishing move.)

Punish KOs - S, have you SEEN those smashes?! They all kill easily, and with stale moves being removed, Bowser's tilts are also higher on their power. Bowser is really a punishment character, so stand fast, tighten your defense and come out with a big punch. (The characters ability to KO an opponent due to a failed offense/defense.)

Gimping - F, Bowser can't really go off stage to kill people, and against people who can effectively sweetspot, you just can't do a whole lot. Still, charged downsmash near the edge is brutal. But like I said, against people effectively sweetspotting, you're better off relying on predicting their get-up move and punishing that. Your only off-stage saving grace is fair... Being this low on options is actually kind of unfair (hahahaha) but Bowser just ain't that kind o' guy. (The character's ability to keep a recovering opponent off the stage.)

S - Muahahaah!! 10 points!!
A - Sublime! 8 points!
B - Very good! 6 points!
C - Average. 5 points.
D - Not very good. 4 points.
E - This sucks! 2 points...
F - Just get outta here! 0 points...

Summary:
Endurance - A
Gimp Resistence - E
Mobility - E
Resilience - E
Spacing - C
GTFO of Me - B
Approach - D
Follow-Ups - D
Combo Finisher - B
Punish KOs - S
Gimping - F

Getting Bowser a solid...:

51 out of 110 points.

That's a pretty fine score for a defensive character in an offensive game. Just enough to net him a mid tier score to me.



Feel free to take this post with a grain of salt - I'm just sharing my opinions. Also, 1 character per week = not good. Do a character every 2-3 days to quicken it up a notch.[/Q

This is an unintelligent question but would you mine doing that for all the characters ( or at least MK ) and pming me with the results? Or, to mak this intelligent we could use those to furhter increase the effectivness of this thread and make things faster.

 

[GHNeko]

Would it be possible to lengthen Bowser's flame? That would increase it's limited usefulness, and give bowser a better NASL ledge guard game.

 

[Deleted member]

Which is why super armor would be a good idea.

It adds to his Boozer Dont Care persona but missing it is riskier than if it had invici frames, but less than it is now.

Why not Heavy Armor instead? during all of his down+b.

 

[Finns7]

First things first, bring back his old wieght. Second less kb on his grabs so he can chain into them, and super armor on his downb is a cool idea which could work.

 

[GHNeko]

Why not Heavy Armor instead? during all of his down+b.

...Heavy Armor?

 

[Deleted member]

...Heavy Armor?

Snake's Cypher, Yoshi's double jump. Like SA, but a strong enough attack can get you out of it.

 

[jokey665]

...Heavy Armor?

I think heavy armor is referring to what snake has during his up-b.

 

[Problem2]

I like the sound of Heavy Armor for down-B. Bowser needs the persona of a giant movie monster. He's big, his moves sometimes have dramatic predictability, but wtf can you do about it?

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why I say Super Armor for the rising of Down B. But it sounds like quite a buff and heavy armor does fit more I suppose.

I'm all for either Super or heavy armor during the rising part of Down B. The dropping part is fine because it has decent priority and the speed is silly. And you shouldnt be using it unless you're 100% sure of hitting. Giving it Heavy/Super armor is too much of a buff and makes it spammable.

Also...

Would it be possible to lengthen Bowser's flame? That would increase it's limited usefulness, and give bowser a better NASL ledge guard game.

 

[Shell]

I'm not really a fan on lengthening the fire breath -- it's already a pretty effective tool on the edge that can either cause the occasional random gimp kill or force the recovering player to take a ton of damage in order to get back on the stage if spaced properly.

If the Down-B could have heavy armor through start-up he could recover rather safely from higher hits by falling right to the ledge. This is certainly a viable tactic now, but it has no priority, at all. I know most tilts will interrupt it, probably jabs as well. As far as making this move usable in general combat, well, I think the risk of missing still outways the benefits even if your startup and initial execution are safer.


So my point about his arials went mostly ignored:

I think the ALR makes his arials more spammable, but they're still pretty poor arials (Except Uair!). I would rather have less spammable but more useful arials (such as the semi-spike bair with more lag). Discuss, please.

 

[Zodac]

moves that need buffing RIGHT NOW:

second jump

moves that could get buffed:

Up smash: Down smash owns this on the ground, Shorthop up air/up tilt owns people in the air, basically useless move to me.
Back air - lags too much.
Some of his weaker throws could get a % boost.

moves that do NOT need buffing:

fire breath - awesome edgeguard
down smash - too powerful
UP B - as an attack
koopa klaw - too good
F air - no need to explain?

~~

ALR = auto lag reduction?

 

[:034:]

This is an unintelligent question but would you mine doing that for all the characters ( or at least MK ) and pming me with the results? Or, to mak this intelligent we could use those to furhter increase the effectivness of this thread and make things faster.

I was planning on doing it for most characters, so you can just copy-paste them if you want. Pay attention that this is just one guy's opinion, there could still be disagreements in the thread.

 

[goodoldganon]

ALR = auto lag reduction?

Correct my good man

 

[V-K]

What i don´t like is that Bowsers up+B on the ground moves a bit slow.
Wasn´t it faster in Melee so that people like gimpyfish could spam it all the time?

And in Melee you could up+B off stage and grab the edge what doesn´t work in Brawl.