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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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CSTIK

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In my semi-pro experience of playing against Wolf as Lucario, my friend (who is not quite as good as me) and I have discovered some crazy things about that matchup.

First, Lucario's airs are supposed to be good, giving him good offense and juggling. But they are slower than Wolfs and cannot come out in time, resulting in my being juggled for at least an additional 30% every time he knocks me into the air, usually more like 50% or death by Fair. Even if I air dodge, he can usually land, jump, and swing again as I come out of it!

Second, Lucario's faster tilts are supposed to prevent him from getting owned because of his slow smashes. But Wolf can smash him and even Ftilt him from VERY far away, outside the range of Lucario's tilts. In addition, Wolf's attacks are extremely fast. Only Lucario's uptilt manages to match Wolf's speed, and it doesn't have enough horizontal hitbox area to compensate.

Third, Wolf can short hop blaster shots, while reflecting Lucario's spammed aura spheres easily. Lucario gets hit by them all the time because it accelerates the projectile, and Lucario's shooting animations lasts longer than the time it takes the sphere to hit him! (unless they're far apart.) Wolf can also reflect fully charged shots, even if he jumps over them and then hits them with the BACK of his reflector, meaning even if he doesn't reflect every one, it will make up for it because the damage and knockback is increased (x1.5? OW 30% damage and death if I'm reasonably high %). I think I die from Aura Spheres more than he does.

Lucario's only advantage is attacking from above, but Lucario, being floaty, falls slowly and thus the Dair is easily dodged with a roll as Lucario falls down. Wolf also has no trouble attacking in the air from below. His jump speed far excels his run speed--thus all he has to do is jump to the side, jump in from the bottom diagonals (where Lucario's aerials cannot hit), and use Fair (which is a killing move, I remind you).

Between dominating aerials, range, projectiles, and a reflector to counter aura spheres (one of Lucario's main defenses), Wolf seems clearly the better matchup to me.

Note: I can beat him playing almost any other character by a bigger margin with a greater success chance.
 

M.K

Level 55
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Holy crap, does Charizard lose to everyone? That's absurd, Charizard deserves some new recognition. He has a good aerial game and some good smashes. Combo this with the ability to glide, multiple jumps, super armor, and dead bunnies, and I'm sure he can beat some more people.
 

Uncle Fitzy

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Wow... I understand this is a difficult thing to undertake but there are lots of screwy things going on, on this chart.
 

axiomnightmare

Smash Rookie
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Something is screwy with the Dedede matchups. How can he lose against so many characters when he does so well in tournaments? Somebody that is good at Dedede should post their opinions.
 

cHooKay

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okay never mind on the whole kirby thing, but I entirely disagree with mario being weak against sonic. Proper shielding and c-stick spamming the bair to flare works makes me win pretty quickly against sonic. Also, Metaknight sucks against Pika and Ness, both of those characters hitboxes out weight Metas godly priority. Ill five stock a meta with both of them any day...
 

Browny

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Something is screwy with the Dedede matchups. How can he lose against so many characters when he does so well in tournaments? Somebody that is good at Dedede should post their opinions.
Personally i dont understand how that is happening anyway. I havent seen a dedede win any 1vs1 match played at my uni's game club. most people know how to avoid / escape his chain grab or simply out-camp him or are just too fast for him.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

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Personally i dont understand how that is happening anyway. I havent seen a dedede win any 1vs1 match played at my uni's game club. most people know how to avoid / escape his chain grab or simply out-camp him or are just too fast for him.
The people at your game club obviously blow *** with him. Some characters cannot get out the grab, so they're not doing it right if those characters are.

And this match-up chart is still horrible. You should never listen to the majority of Smashboards for anything like this, it just doesn't work.
 

Emblem Lord

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Yeah it is.

It has Falco listed as having a bad match when he has none.

Tsk tsk.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
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This list is really ambitious and cool, but these match ups are awful.

Falco doesn't have a bad match up like EL said. Some neutrals, but I can't see anyone who gives him a problem.

Ike loses to Bowser and and is neutral to Ganondorf? Um what?

D3 has way too many bad match ups too.

Seriously guy there's no way this will be taken seriously, and I'm not trying to be a jerk.

I haven't payed too much attention to the last 20+ pages, but honestly, people who actually play the character and have a decent understanding of the game mechanics should be the one talking about who their characters wins and loses against.

This chart can be awesome with a lot of revisions though.
 

Emblem Lord

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Pit has slight disadvantage to Marth, MetaKknight, Falco, Wolf, and Toon Link. Maybe G&W too.

So 6/4 in thier advantage vs Pit.

Snake has 7/3 advantage ratio on Pit.

Metaknight goes even with most of the top tiers save for a few. He is at advantage vs Pit. And disadvantage vs Snake and Marth. Snake has either 6/4 or 7/3 ratio in his favor. Marth is most likely 6/4.

Dedede only really has disadvantage vs the top tiers. He loses to Falco, Snake, Wolf, and probably Toon Link from what I know. Goes even with the rest. MK and Pit may have advantage, but right now I say they go even with him, yeah that includes Marth.

Honestly alot of people are giving the dumbest reasons as to why a character beats another. A while back Jester kirby said Marth loses horribly to Kirby since Kirby has the fake kirbycides.

Are you serious?

>_>

If you don't know about match-up analysis then you just don't post in a thread about match-ups.

It's that simple.
 

Corner-Trap

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Everything about the IC's section seems wrong. Here's my match-ups:

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Good 7/3
Charizard- Good 7/3
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Good 7/3
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 6/4
Link- Good 7/3
Lucario- Fair 6/4
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 6/4
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 5/5
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Good 7/3
Peach- Good 7/3
Pikachu- Fair 4/6
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 6/4
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 6/4
Snake- Fair 4/6
Sonic- Good 7/3
Squirtle- Good 7/3
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Good 7/3
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 5/5
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6
 

Emblem Lord

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I would say Marth has slight advantage on IC's.

He has an easy time splitting them up and then going after Nana.
 

ShadowLink84

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Snake murders Sonic.

He doesn't need to camp. He can just use basic grenade tactics like hold the grenade and wait for Sonic to attack and the nade blows up in his face while Snake shields.

Also Snake's priority is insane on his tilts and he can kill Sonic easily. How is sonic gonna get Snake off the side to gimp him often when Snake is like 3rd heaviest in the game and Sonic has crap knockback?

Sonic appraochs Snake and eats an f-tilt for 21%.

Rinse and repeat till the hedgehog is done.

How does Sonic beat Snake?

Explain it to me.
You failed so very hard with that post.
Christ have you ever used Sonic beyond two minutes.
Spin dash easily gets through grenades,nikita, C4 etc etc.
So a projectile game isn't going to work well against sonic.
Sonic's Ftilt cancels out Snake's Ftilt so yeah spamming it isn't going to do much.
how is he going to knock him off the side?
hmm i don't know I remember something along the lines of damaging Snake with several combos and then knocking him off with an Ftilt, nair, Bair, Fair, U smash, d tilt etc etc.

Snake eats all of Sonic's combos, A spindash to a Uair to another Uair/Fair/bair is great and many of his attacks can set Snake up to edge guarded.
hell Fair chasing hurts Snake badly.
The fact that the spindash has massive priority during several parts makes it excellent for approaching so Snake and his grenades and Nikita don't mean much, especially when they can get caught.
Spin cancel also allows him to mix up his approach and his spring+Dair combo is great for getting him to the ground safely with no lag.

Aerial wise Snake sucks in the air. If you face a Sonic in the air as Snake you either have to start all your moves early (which he is going to see, dodge and punish you) or you are going to have to get back to the ground quickly. Something that Sonic is not going to let you do very easily considering he has incredible speed in air and the ground.
Sonic can easily control the spacing and speed of the match and he can be very unpredictable.

I fail to see as to how Snake murders Sonic when Sonic can pressure Snake.
 

ShadowLink84

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no one is saying which characters are better than the other. The chart is determining what characters do well against each other.
For example even if bowser does well against marth it doesn't mean Bowser is a better character than Marth.
 

Emblem Lord

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LOL.

Snake outprioritzes anything Sonic does.

Spindash? Snake can just hold jab to cancel that ****. If sonic Spindashes at Snake while he is holding a greande Snake will shield and Sonic eats the hit.

Ok, so what if Sonic can clank with Snake on one move? Sonic still has crap priority and Snake outranges him greatly. Snake's close range game demolishes Sonic. He doesn't need to camp. Sonic's f-tilt will clank with Snake's and then Snake can just Smashdash right into Sonic's face. Also how does Sonic deal with that tactic? Snake dash attacks and whether you block or not he can cancels in to up-smash. Snake can go all across FD with this and he has alot of priority so Sonic would be ahrd pressed to stop this.

Sonic can combo you with spindash cancel to aerial. K. Snake will cacnel that spin dash everytime with a jab or a dash attack or an f-tilt. Go test the range on Snake's f-tilt then get back to me.

Snake attacks faster, he is stronger, with more range, disjointed hitboxes, and better tactics through the use of his grenades and his smashdash, plus he ahs crazy priority thanks to his disjointed hitboxes.

Sonic can't fight Snake.
 

Chrono Centaur

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Uhh, i herd OP likes Bowser bias :< oh and some Marth bias too, amazing man

Really, Bowser does not lose to all those people. That's just ridiculous. Change or gtfo.

And umm, Snake vs Sonic? Snake. Easily.

Dedede is top tier, by the way, and shouldn't lose to so many people.
 

ShadowLink84

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people don't honestly care if you LOL.
Snake outprioritzes anything Sonic does.
sSo does the majority of the cast your point?
That doesn't stop him from having a good match up with bowser.
Spindash? Snake can just hold jab to cancel that ****. If sonic Spindashes at Snake while he is holding a greande Snake will shield and Sonic eats the hit.
When the grenade explodes Sonic doesn't get hurt at all.
the priority of the spindash during its hop has massive priority of projectiles and can cancel several attacks.
As I said you obviously ahve not used Sonic or researched him a decent amount or you would have knownw hat i was speaking of earlier.
Ok, so what if Sonic can clank with Snake on one move? Sonic still has crap priority and Snake outranges him greatly.
So Snake outranges Sonic's homing attack?
Ran eis nothing considering Sonic has great speed in air and horizontally.
Spin shot/cancel lets him move through the air as fast a CF did in melee.
Priority is the bigger issue not range and even then most of snake's moves are punishable.

Snake's close range game demolishes Sonic. He doesn't need to camp.
you just said Snake can camp in order to beat Sonic. Nor can Snake at extremely agro like Fox/MK cause he doesn't have the speed and can be punished more easily.
his approach game isn't like Sonic/Fox/Marth/MK so he really cannot approach safely without getting hit.
yeah he can approach but not safely so more often than not you'll ahve your attempt foiled. the fact that Sonic can get away from Snake very easily makes it more difficult for Snake to act agro towards Sonic.
hence camping would be Snake's best option but even then since Sonic has a good amount of approach tactics so you can't really force Sonic to be predictable.
Sonic's f-tilt will clank with Snake's and then Snake can just Smashdash right into Sonic's face.
Shielding says hi.
Also how does Sonic deal with that tactic? Snake dash attacks and whether you block or not he can cancels in to up-smash. Snake can go all across FD with this and he has alot of priority so Sonic would be hard pressed to stop this.
you make it sound like Sonic is going to sstand still and allow it to happen.
How fast can Snake move on the ground during the dash smash?
Is it faster than Sonic's Dash?
Faste rthan spincharge?
Faster than spindash?
faster than homing attack and jump cancel?
Faster than Spinshooting?

if its not faster than even one Sonic won't be hard pressed considering he has a wealth of options.
Sonic can combo you with spindash cancel to aerial. K. Snake will cacnel that spin dash everytime with a jab or a dash attack or an f-tilt. Go test the range on Snake's f-tilt then get back to me.
Again you mention range which is no big deal for Sonic. Yes the Ftilt has good range but its not something you can abuse.
nor is sonic going to constantly use his spindash to approach Sonic.
Find me a good player that will allow Snake to clank Sonic's spindash and comeback to me.
Snake attacks faster,
LOL wut?
Faster?
his neutral A attacks are slightly slower than Sonic's .
His aerial game is crap plain and simple and Sonic can easily hurt him in the air.
he is stronger,
8points to sonic's superior speed*
yeah strength is wonderful but only on a predictable opponent.
with more range,
Sonic has no issues concerning range so do not use this argument anymore.
disjointed hitboxes, and better tactics through the use of his grenades and his smashdash, plus he ahs crazy priority thanks to his disjointed hitboxes.
grenades=catchablle.
Sonic plows through grenades so they aren't extremely useful. I already answered about the grenades and you still brought it up. -_-;
Snake Dashsmash may provide issues but otherwise Sonic can control the spacing and only one moveto increase his movement isn't going to help aggainst someone who has a multitude of moves doing the same thing.


Sonic can't fight Snake.
Really?
I can always face your Snake with Sonic at 3p.m and then we can determine if Sonic really gets squashed by Snake.
Or if you are impatient, can challenges Lucky, interimofZeal, Darknes.
They would be more than welcome to face you.
 

Chrono Centaur

Smash Apprentice
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so, I herd sonic likes utilt

:<

oh and AAA combo and snake's ftilt combo

they're all pretty cool rite guys
 

CSTIK

Smash Cadet
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GAW

vs dk: gaw has the speed advantage for sure, dk with the power. I'd say in most cases their range is equivalent, while dk has super armor frames to get giant punch kills in. I see no reason as to why this isn't an equal matchup.

vs ike: ike has a ton of range, lacks speed. GW out speeds him and can gimp him with dtilts and such. Ike is pretty powerful, def an even matchup.

vs lucario: gaw has range, power, speed, recovery, and edgeguarding over lucario. i see no reason as to why lucario is even in question, gw owns this matchup.

vs samus: samus has missiles and grapple that outrange gw, most of gw's other cc attacks will range samus. gw is def more able to kill than samus, and has better combos to boot. I'd say gw has the advantage.
agree about Lucario and GAW. All my friend does is spam key plants and downsmashes and he wins. No, really, he doesn't even turtle or anything. it's ********
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
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Corner-Trap, if you could give me your AIM here or PM it I would appreciate.

I know you are good player and need experience vs good ones in order to get where I want to be. I also disagree strongly with your judgement of ICs vs Ike. I would give that a 5/5 or maybe a 6/4 for ICs.

But yea, gimmie your AIM so we can play once ur Wifi is set up.

I am VersatileRTC.
 

Emblem Lord

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ShadowLink: You are unworthy of Yuna's quote in your Sig.

Snake is pretty much hands down the best character in the game and Sonic is one of the worst.

Have you even played around with Snake in practice mode?

Also homing attack? Block that **** and Sonic is wide open.

Also allow Snake to clank?

What? Snake can do this on reaction. The moment Sonic goes towards him Snake can just hold the a button. WTF are you talking about?

You think Snake doesn't have the speed to aggro?
Go look up Snakes smashdash on the Snake forums.

Sonic wishes he could attack that fast. If you haven't seen it then you wouldn't even begin to know how stupid it is. It is stupid fast and virtually unpunishable on block. And yes it's faster then Sonic's dash. It's faster then any movement or attack in the game except for the space animal illusions and a few other moves.

Sanke is just better. Also Snake's Uair and Bair are amazing. Crazy range and power plus his Bair turns his whole body into the hitobox except his head.

Also Sonic's air game isn't even that good. So why you going on about it?

Snake has better options then Sonic. Sonic has to approach or yes Snake can camp him. Snake has control game through is explosives and unless Sonic wants to deal with that he has to approach and that's when he loses. Snake is far superior to Sonic at close range. And yeah Snake attacks fast. Super fast. And his tilts have range that is almost equal to Marth's. Good luck getting close and actually doing something to Snake.

And if you screw up once then you eat some nasty damage and get knocked away which gives Snake time to set-up his control game.

This isn't a debate. Snake is far superior to Sonic and Sonic has nothing that would allow him to compete with Snake.
 

Dark Sonic

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meh it would allow me to see Snake's tactics and see if they would or would not be an issue for Sonic.
Sonic just fails so hard over wi-fi. You're no longer able to react to the opponent's attacks so you don't get to use that amazing speed for punishment.

Playing him online really won't give you any sort of grasp on the matchup, except maybe killing percentages or something.

As for the actual debate, I kinda want to agree with Emblem Lord. Sonic has almost no problem getting in close, but the issue is that once he's close he really hasn't done anything. Snake has a much better ground game than Sonic, and even Sonic's airgame is out classed. What Sonic has going for him is that his speed makes him harder to predict, but that's not going to be enough to win the match.

Sonic will always have to make the approach, so Snake's approaching issues don't really matter in this matchup. If Sonic ever decides that he's going to wait and try to react to what Snake is doing, Snake will just use the opporunity to pull out grenades and set traps, making it harder for Sonic to approach latter. Snake gets to take advantage of brawl's defensive system, giving him a substantial advantage overall. Snake can go aggro, but unlike Sonic he isn't forced to, so Snake gets to pick when to play aggressive and when to fall back to brawls amazing defense system.

Advantage, Snake.
 

Emblem Lord

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Sonic Wave: I like how an intelligent poster suck as yourself doesn't even commnet on the fact that he ahs no idea wtf he is taking about and instead you choose to tell him that Sonic sukcs over wifi.

Which isn't true. Dash attack all day.

Sonic goes up a tier on wifi. Dead serious.
 

Uncle Fitzy

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Sonic Wave: I like how an intelligent poster suck as yourself doesn't even commnet on the fact that he ahs no idea wtf he is taking about and instead you choose to tell him that Sonic sukcs over wifi.

Which isn't true. Dash attack all day.

Sonic goes up a tier on wifi. Dead serious.
I don't know who you've been playing but Wifi puts Sonic at the bottom. Command lag kills all of his combos.
 

Emblem Lord

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Honestly wifi ****s up tiers alot. Any character that requires timing and precision goes down.

Any character that can just spam becomes god tier.
 

Dark Sonic

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Honestly wifi ****s up tiers alot. Any character that requires timing and precision goes down.

Any character that can just spam becomes god tier.
Well, I don't spam dash attack because I don't play over wi-fi regularly. I hate the input lag, because it screws up my punishment game and make's killing really hard for me (especially edgeguarding).

Anyway, I didn't comment on the rest of his post becasue I thought it would be fairly obvious to anyone reading it. I just wanted to discourage the idea of using wi-fi to see how characters fight against each other, because honestly you have to completely change your style to compensate for the lag.

I noticed that Toon Link is the best character in the game when playing in Wi-fi (like he wasn't top tier already lol.)

But yeah, Emblem Lord's smart. You guys should listen to him more often. His points are always so much more in depth than mine once he actually starts debating, and on the Marth boards he's always been sort of a godsend, making the most helpful threads to get people started.

[/fanboyism]
 

lismore

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Honestly wifi ****s up tiers alot. Any character that requires timing and precision goes down.

Any character that can just spam becomes god tier.
I can't comment on Sonic as I don't play with him and certainly don't have enough experience playing against him either, but i'd have to agree in general with this. Even a 1/4 second button lag makes a HUGE difference playing against good players or, indeed, horrible players who camp and projectile/quick smash attack spam constantly (oh, and roll A LOT lol). Things like dash attacks which would normally be blocked/countered etc with relative ease suddenly become a constant threat (especially a quick one like MK's) because your shield or attack comes out that little bit later.

Personally, unless there's absolutely no lag, I really don't think wifi matches can be a completely accurate reflection of the skill of the players involved. It's like Tsquared said in an MLG interview the other day on Halo 3: [paraphrased] 'You can't compare LAN play to Online play, it just plays totally differently - it feels much faster and a lot less random, like a totally different game'. Obviously this is Halo 3 not SSBB but the key point I feel is essentially the same. If (as is generally agreed) approaching rather than defending in brawl puts you at a disadvantage, I think this is, unfortunately, exacerbated in online play. Wifi Spammers ftw! ;)
 

ROOOOY!

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ROB batters Ganondorf...PROJECTILES
Sonic's at least even with Ice Climbers, as long as he doesn't get grabbed, he's ok. Seperating Nana isn't all that difficult, and Popo's hopeless by himself.
 

Dark Sonic

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Speaking of Wifi, Emblem Lord, would you mind adding me to your friends list? I generally prefer fighting in person, but I rarely get to play people outside of my crew. The most frequently I get to fight other people is about once a month at gigabits.
 

TehBo49

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Same as the second and third quotes above. If you dispute it, state your reasons.
Okay then.

Pikachu has a good, spammable projectile which Charizard is easily susceptible to due to his size. His overall movement speed is slower than Pika's & he can be chaingrabbed. Other than gliding, his recovery is easy to gimp & even gliding can be intercepted by thunder.

I can see it argued that Pikachu is light-weight & easy to kill, but he more than makes up for it. If Pikachu has advantages against Bowser, Ike, & Donkey Kong, I don't why he would lose to Charizard. At best, I could see Charizard being even with Pika, but even then it's a little far-fetched.
 
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