Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

On a completely irrelevant note: Olimar's games > Sonic's (recent) games. I just got Pikmin 2 and, like the first one, I find it fresh and original. And fun, that's the big one. To anybody who has yet to play it, I recommend finding it and buying it. It was Nintendo's only original property in the past 10 years (err, give or take) and yet nobody (myself included) gave it the chance it deserved because it didn't have Mario or Zelda in it. If you haven't already, please go out and play it.

I have yet to play a pikmin game, but I can vouch that most of sonic's recent games are awful since Sonic adventure two. On a side note, I'm trying to get feedback on the sonic olimar thing... I'm getting the general vibe of either "even" or "slightly in olimar's favour" there are the extremists who claim that olimar destroys sonic or vice versa, but most people are seeming to see it as maybe a 6/4 or a 5/5.. I'll collect more data though.

 

[S2]

Just because he's won the 3rd most Tourneys doesn't make him 3rd best character... It just means that more people play with him in tourneys, then say... Bowser or some other "Low tier" character.

Exactly. A lot of people don't seem to understand that tier lists are partially based on usage. Of course, players tend to gravitate towards higher tiered characters, so tiers based on character results in tournaments end up being quite accurate.

So far, Brawl has certain characters that are clearly more popular than others. Some characters, while probably not top tier contenders, have a lot of potential that's hampered by lack of interest.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I have yet to play a pikmin game, but I can vouch that most of sonic's recent games are awful since Sonic adventure two. On a side note, I'm trying to get feedback on the sonic olimar thing... I'm getting the general vibe of either "even" or "slightly in olimar's favour" there are the extremists who claim that olimar destroys sonic or vice versa, but most people are seeming to see it as maybe a 6/4 or a 5/5.. I'll collect more data though.

I responded in your thread on the Sonic boards about it. Basically it seems no worse than a 6/4. It's definitely not a free win matchup, for either of them.

Olimar counters Lucas. Lucas has trouble getting yellow pikmin off of him, and you can fsmash him from a grab release. It's definitely not a good matchup for Lucas.

 

[Browny]

how about that Link.

despite his amazingly bad recovery i think he holds his own against the best of them, especially Olimar. Link is the only character i can consistently beat my brothers olimar with (by a massive amount too), everything link has shuts down olimars game. gale boomerang ends olimars camping quick and without olimars ability to camp, i think thats gotta be worth a lot, since links aerials beat out olimar pretty bad, and his fsmash can go right through pikmin smash attack spam.

 

[hizzlum]

zamus side b is strong and massive ranged. should be killing marth from centre of FD from around 140%.

and try to edgeguard a good lucario player and see what happens. you just cant touch him. and the only way lucario will die by an edgehog is if someone spikes him, or he gets hit by something like wolfs dsmash which sends them below the stage. lucario can just float back to the stage against any attack that send him even slightly upwards. oh and, aura sphere can stage spike pretty nastily.

once again lucario is a character who is easily gimped in theory, but in practice hes one of the hardest since his aerials beat out just about everyone. on the other hand, marth is far less floaty and will generally be forced to use his up-b to recover many times, which lucario can easily edgehog since there is a small timeframe for when it will work for marth. simply put, the invincibility frames for edgehogging do not last long enough to edgehog lucario when he falls so slow, he can stall for like 30 seconds with his d-air

For ZSS to kill 140% with one of her best KO moves is WAY to weak when Marth kills with fsmash tippers AT 70%, and normal aerials kill at about 100%. Yes is does have long range, but marth is a low % killer in brawl like he was in melee, he just takes ZSS to the edge and takes advantage of her tether recovery easy. So when ZSS is trying to get a kill in at 140%-170% marth is going to get kill at 80%-110%.
Also about marth not being floaty and only being able to do is b up, marth can do 3 AERIALS OF THE STAGE and then recover. Since lucario's b-up doesent do damage to the opponent a marth can do the simple double fair edgeguard or with mindgames do the bair edgeguard, which gurantees kills at 100%. Marth's range can its hard for lucario to appraoch until its range is boosted with damage, and by that time marth and easily kill a lucario at 100% with his many KO options.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Exactly. A lot of people don't seem to understand that tier lists are partially based on usage. Of course, players tend to gravitate towards higher tiered characters, so tiers based on character results in tournaments end up being quite accurate.

So far, Brawl has certain characters that are clearly more popular than others. Some characters, while probably not top tier contenders, have a lot of potential that's hampered by lack of interest.

since I main her, I think zelda's a great example of this. Zelda is excelent. One of the best characters even, but is drastically underplayed. Sonic has won more tourneys than her if I'm not mistaken.

and thanks for the support on olimar/sonic rapid assassin.


edit: just out of curiosity, why does zelda match up poorly against wario & wolf? I've never had any problems with either, but that doesnt mean a whole lot since I don't play against great wolves, and the warios I play are good, but not amazing. She seems to outrange/prioritize both of them, and wario doesn't have a counter to din's fire, so he has to approach... so, I'm not saying change it... I just need to know why?

 

[Browny]

Also about marth not being floaty and only being able to do is b up, marth can do 3 AERIALS OF THE STAGE and then recover.

Marth's range can its hard for lucario to appraoch until its range is boosted with damage, and by that time marth and easily kill a lucario at 100% with his many KO options.

lucario can do 6 f-airs off the stage and recover, and if we include his d-air that could get anywhere up to 12, so yeah. and lucario doesnt have to approach when hes got aura sphere. he can camp all day long, marth is the one who has to approach. Lucarios range is constant (huge) no matter what % he is on, and killing lucario at 100% isnt anything special, since aura sphere can KO at 100 and so can double team, dont even need to use any smash attacks.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Actually, Marth can do 5-6 fairs off the stage and recover, not just three. And don't forget that Lucario's aerials are out ranged by Marth. You just don't seemt to get that concept do you?

And you do realize that Marth is the best approaching character in the game right? And that Lucario's aurasphere is also one of the worst for camping?

And he's not just killing Lucario at 100%. That's just outright killing off the sides with his aerial attacks. You're forgetting that Marth is also one of the best gimpers in the game and Lucario's recovery is one of the easiest for him to gimp (due to Marth outranging him and Lucario having bad startup lag on his up B.)

Dair's don't mean **** btw, since Marth outranges it with a uair. What part of "I have more range than you" don't you seem to get. Not to mention that Marth's aerials come out just as fast, do more damage, and have more knockback.

And since you didn't respond to my post on the last page, here's a reminder.

Marths upb giving him invincibility frames doesnt mean anything. with that new roll-instant edgehog technique theres no need to attack marth when you can keep him at range with aura spheres, and roll off the edge to edgehog it.

Aura spheres don't do anything. Because Marth has a sword. Try again.
Oh, and Marth's up B reaches the edge before you roll on it. In fact, he can reach it in between you going off the stage trying to hug him. Try again. And it's not rolling off the edge. It's running off, fast falling, and holding towards the stage, which is still too slow to edgehog Marth.

how is marths recovery better than someone like wolfs? they both gain the same range, and its not like theres any need to attack wolf or marth off the stage when an edgehog will do just fine.

Marth's recovery is better because he can use neutral B to cover all horizontal distance, side B to get a vertical boost, and his up B is one billion times faster and you'd only be able to edgehog him if you actually ran of the stage before he started his up B.

. marths up b could have the knockback of G&W oil panic it doesnt make a difference when its very easy to time the edgehogs invincibility frames, something which is much harder to do against lucario with his d-air stall.

WTF are you even talking about. Edgehogging sucks in this game. Not only does Marth have a lot more leeway with sweetspotting his up B (as in, he can wait for the invincibility to wear off and then still reach the ledge), but his up B is so fast that you'd actually have to grab the ledge before Marth does his up B, which means that essentially he should never get edgehogged. He can activate his up B really early, or really late, and the window for doing his up B and still sweetspotting is actually longer than the invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge.

And Marth should never edgehog Lucario. But Lucario is rediculously easy to edgeguard. Marth will just jump off the stage and hit you with fairs and nairs, both of which outrange every move in your arsenal, and both of them hit you out of your up B, which also has rediculously slow startup. Lucario is easy to edgeguard because his up B is slow and predictable, while also not being able to defend against Marth's aerials. Marth is hard to edgeguard because his up B is fast, he can outrange all off stage edgeguard attempts, and he can slash through those pathetic aurashperes with even more ease than he did missles in melee. An the autosweetspot just helps him even more, by increasing the range in which he can sweetspot an up B to be even longer than the invincibility you gained.

Dair stall does not stop Marth's aerials. Try again

and aura sphere makes short work of marth using his side b or neutral b to recover.

Side B is a vertical boost. As in, you use it to get higher. So no, an aurasphere will have no effect since it can only travel horizontally.

marth is as easy to edgehog as olimar as far as im concerned since his up-b is so **** fast a properly timed edgehog will kill him every time.

What ******** Marth's are you playying? Marth can litterally wait for your invincibility to end and just up B later, since his up B goes so far. And you can't ledgehop to regain invincibility because Marth can reach the edge in between you jumping and regrabbing the ledge. That speed is exactly what allows Marth to have more flexibility with timing his up B than any other character in the game. If the other characters can wait, Marth can wait even longer, since his up B actually goes farther than everyone you mentioned.

ive successfully edgehogged marth far more than i do any other character i play against, so w/e.

Then you've been playing bad marths that suck balls at recovering. If you try to hug against Marth, Marth can activate his up B and reach the ledge first. If you grab the ledge before he gets in range to sweetspot, he can wait for your invincibility to go away and up B you inbetween ledgehops. If you throw auraspheres, he'll just fair them. If you try to fair edgeguard, he'll just fair you instead since he outranges you. And that's assuming he's even low enough to have to use his up B in the first place, or that you even get him off the stage for that matter. Off the stage Marth ***** Lucario, on the stage Marth has a smaller advantage but it's still an advantage. Marth racks damage faster, kills at lower percents, gimps better, and recovers better. Lucario is at a disadvantage, end of story. If you try to fair combo he'll up B you out of it. If you try to roll behind him he'll side B your face (which quickly regenrerates his other moves) If you roll away from him he'll chase you with a freakin' shield breaker (that's right, it's a good move now). Lucario loses.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay okay, maybe this argument will end if I can help.

Let's look at what each haracter's got on the other.

-Marth
Range
Strength
Weight
Recvovery

-Lucario
A projectile
I'm pretty sure that on the whole his moves are faster.


So I mean, look, it's against lucario from the start. His projectile can pack a punch from time to time, but is easily dodged or countered. Lucario is very reliant on the fact that he's difficult to approach due to large disjointed hitboxes, but marth's are even large making it much easier for marth to approach than lucario would like. I could be wrong, but I don't think lucario's approach game is very good against marth when he needs to be offensive... lucario's offensive game on the whole isn't as good as his defensive. Anyway, it's the zelda syndrome but worse. Both Zelda and lucario have nice big hitboxes but they are outranked by the reach of marth's sword, and lucario doesn't have the power or even weight of zelda and has a worse approach. Aside from this, marth's dominance extends to the air as well as the ground, and lucario is increadibly easily edguarded by marth since lucario's UB has no damage associated with it. Sorry lucario, there's just no way this match isn't in marth's favour. I'd put it AT LEAST 7/3 for marth.

 

[jalued]

i would say DK has the upper hand vs Metaknight. if MK gets stunned by a shield break(with side B), he is dead, if he tornadoes/flies at DK, and DK does charged B, then MK dies due to super armour

 

[Kiwikomix]

DK is a heavy character with poor vertical recovery. MK can gimp pretty much anybody and racks up terrible damage on heavier characters. I understand DK has some good range on MK but, seriously, MK wins this one hands down.

 

[thebasman]

...did I read this incorrectly, or does Marth lost to R.O.B.? Why is this? As far as i can tell, Marth has superior range, priority, and KO potential. ROB, as far as I can tell, has the projectiles and that's about it.

Does someone know something about this matchup that I don't?

 

[Emblem Lord]

R.O.B outranges Marth just so you know.

Also R.O.B has a solid camping game and you can never really tell when he will shoot that laser when he ahs the charge for it.

R.O.B does have his fair share of weaknesses though.

OverSwarm and I are pretty much the head figures for the R.O.B and Marth boards respectively.

He thinks they go even and I think R.O.B has advantage, but it's a highly debatable match-up.

Most likely it IS even, but I feel comfortable with giving R.O.B slight advantage for now.

Actually OS and I got into a huge debate about a month ago. Back then we both thought they went even, but we had different reasoning.

I'll post the link to the thread. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162016

 

[Juggalo]

You have a question mark on the Wolf/Marth and a blank spot on the Wolf/Zelda.
I main Wolf, and have a fair amount of experience against a competitive Marth, and 2 competitive Zeldas.

On the Wolf boards, these 2 characters have been pretty much named the best counterpick against Wolf. Go there and check out their reasonings if you don't find mine adequate enough to modify your chart with.

Most of Wolf's aerial approaches to a landed Zelda result in getting stuck in her up smash. RAR shBair (Wolf's best midair priority move) even gets pulled into the attack. Wolf's 0-lag shFair can easily be sweetspotted by Zelda's hell foot, she can even start her short hop slightly after the Wolf and still manage to get the move through.

Since Wolf has the ability to do a 0-lag shFair (making his dair his only aerial with landing lag), his playing style has evolved to hitting someone with a short hopped aerial and DI'ing appropriately to try to keep somebody getting hitstunned by his other aerials, using his low-knockback uair as a bad-*** juggle move.
The problem with this is a character like Marth, who the more I try to chase, the better his attacks come in range, especially if he attacks soon to tip. The more aggro of a Wolf player you are, the better a Marth will be able to hit you, so you have to completely rethink your offense, and risk getting within sword-reach to get any hits in. Blaster is too slow of a projectile to really pull your attack strings together with against him as well.

 

[thebasman]

Actually OS and I got into a huge debate about a month ago. Back then we both thought they went even, but we had different reasoning.

I'll post the link to the thread. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162016

I read over parts of the thread you linked to. A lot of valid points. But I still think that the match favors Marth (marginally, like a 6/4).

It seemed like a lot of the argument centered around close range options. I think that this is a distinct advantage for Marth not only in quality but in variety of options. ROB basically has the ftilt, dtilt, dsmash at close range on the ground (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really play ROB). The ftilt has the most range, so would probably present the biggest problem for short hopped well spaced fairs. But you can mix up that approach with dancing blade, shield breaker, nair, or just using your second jump to maximize distance. ROB only has the one legitimate answer, and you can punish the ROB response if it gets predictable.

Also, for gimping: I think that it depends on positioning. If ROB is under the ledge, it's going to be hard for him to get back against a good Marth. It's also going to be difficult for a Marth to get back from below the ledge against a good ROB, but if you use the shield breaker to cover some horizontal then you can use your air jump in conjunction with a dodge to help aginst a little against gimping.

Basically, if Marth plays a pressure game and doesn't get too predictable, there's a marginal advantage. ROB is going to be really successful, though, at punishing any mistakes or bad jubgment in Marth's approach or recovery.

 

[The Executive]

Just my two cents...

Wario edges out C. Falcon on a number of areas. Wario out prioritizes Falcon on loads of moves, can jump-in bite Falcon's u-tilt/d-smash/b, can use projectiles (bike parts) to force an approach, can punish better at close range, is more maneuverable, has better recovery, and can physically beat Falcon off the stage, over the air, and across a blast line, then come all the way back to the stage 80% of the time. Falcon may have more range on tilts/smashes, but low priority and lack of combos hinder him too much.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone edges out CF.

About Marth vs Wolf, well I do think Marth has slight advantage I don't think Marth ***** his **** or anything.

But we will see what happens in the future.

 

[Browny]

Okay okay, maybe this argument will end if I can help.

Let's look at what each haracter's got on the other.

-Marth
Range
Strength
Weight
Recvovery

-Lucario
A projectile
I'm pretty sure that on the whole his moves are faster.


So I mean, look, it's against lucario from the start. His projectile can pack a punch from time to time, but is easily dodged or countered. Lucario is very reliant on the fact that he's difficult to approach due to large disjointed hitboxes, but marth's are even large making it much easier for marth to approach than lucario would like. I could be wrong, but I don't think lucario's approach game is very good against marth when he needs to be offensive... lucario's offensive game on the whole isn't as good as his defensive. Anyway, it's the zelda syndrome but worse. Both Zelda and lucario have nice big hitboxes but they are outranked by the reach of marth's sword, and lucario doesn't have the power or even weight of zelda and has a worse approach. Aside from this, marth's dominance extends to the air as well as the ground, and lucario is increadibly easily edguarded by marth since lucario's UB has no damage associated with it. Sorry lucario, there's just no way this match isn't in marth's favour. I'd put it AT LEAST 7/3 for marth.

Lucario is considerably heavier than marth, and hes also packing a 0-50% chain grab combo against the lower-middle wieghts. and his projectile isnt just any old projectile, its more than capable of killing at 100%. If not exactly easily dodged when he can combo into it directly from a f-air. You really cant consider aura sphere in the same league as any other projectile. and i wouldnt say marth has a better recovery, lucario can recover from the far edges of the blast zone while marth only can if he uses his neutral b from very high up, lucarios bthrow for example throws them so low he will never be able to recover with a proper edgeguard. and remember if lucario gets marth off the stage and he has an aura sphere ready, if marth charges his neutral b he doesnt exactly have a chance of dodging it. and dont be sure sure about marth outranging lucario, his dtilt is huge and hits behind him, fsmash is considerably larger than marth and his uptilt is about the same range, only 10x faster.

and for the last time lucarios up b doing no damage means nothing. how many times do i have to say it, wolfs upb does a lot of damage but its still incredibly easy to gimp. same applies for pretty much every character in the game. lucario can jut float back to the stage charging an aura sphere and if marth tries to attack him hes going to have to dodge that first. anyway off the stage aerial battles are pointless since airdodges negate that pretty much everytime.

 

[axiomnightmare]

Please fix the Dedede matchups. Him having disadvantages against Sonic, Peach, Ness, Zelda, Sheik and Samus is ridiculous. I think he has the advantage in at least several of these matchups, but should not be put at a disadvantage at least.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucarios' up b not doing damage definitely means something.

A weakness is a weakness whether you have ways to mitigate it or not and that's one of his biggest weaknesses.

That said, I have that Marth and Lucario go even in my match-up thread.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Lucario is considerably heavier than marth, and hes also packing a 0-50% chain grab combo against the lower-middle wieghts.

And Marth packs a 4 frame jab combo that does 21 percent and refreshes his attacks. Marth has no problems racking damage, but Lucario does. Just try grabbing any decent Marth, you'll find that he's out of range 99% of the time (especially since you move slower than him),

and his projectile isnt just any old projectile, its more than capable of killing at 100%.

Assuming that slow thing actually hits and isn't just countered, powershielded, spotdodged, airdodged, ect.

If not exactly easily dodged when he can combo into it directly from a f-air.

It does not combo directly from a fair. This is false. You can airdodge, side B, fair, nair, up B, ect while Lucario reals back to do the aurasphere. Heck, Marth can even counter in reactio to hearing that stupid charge noise.

You really cant consider aura sphere in the same league as any other projectile.

You're right. It's worse. It moves too slow, takes too long to charge, does too little damage and knockback uncharged, has too much startup lag, has too much ending lag, and overall would be the worst projectile in the game if it weren't for Lucario's aura pumping it. And even then it's nothing to be afraid of, especially when compared to TL's projectiles, Falco's lasers, Rob's laser, Snake's grenades, and pretty much every other projectile out there.

and i wouldnt say marth has a better recovery, lucario can recover from the far edges of the blast zone while marth only can if he uses his neutral b from very high up, lucarios bthrow for example throws them so low he will never be able to recover with a proper edgeguard.

Recovery is not all about distance. Marth is one of the hardest characters in the game to edgeguard (allong with Metaknight, Sonic, ect.) Lucario's crappy aurasphere is stopped by a simple fair, not hurting Marth's recovery at all. Lucario's off stage attempts are also easily stuffed by Marth's fair, nair, and shieldbreaker, which outrange every aerial you've got. Edgehogs are stuffed by Marth's blazingly fast up B, which beats you to the edge if you tried hugging him, and if you grab it before he's in range to sweetspot then he can just wait since his sweetspot window is so huge.

and remember if lucario gets marth off the stage and he has an aura sphere ready, if marth charges his neutral b he doesnt exactly have a chance of dodging it.

Or, Marth can just release his neutral B earlier and counter the stupid aurasphere. He doesn't have to fully charge it you know. And since he's presumably far away from the stage if he's even bothering to neutral B, he could also just release it later and go under the aurasphere. Stop playing bad Marths.

and dont be sure sure about marth outranging lucario, his dtilt is huge and hits behind him, fsmash is considerably larger than marth and his uptilt is about the same range, only 10x faster.

Marth's d-tilt outranges Lucario's and Marth's f-tilt outranges every move except f-smash, which is outranged by shield breaker (which is also faster than Lucario's f-smash and has great knockback) Marth's fair, nair, and bair outranges all of Lucario's aerials and it also outranges his up tilt. I don't know why you'd even try to compare Marth and Lucario's up tilts, considering that they will never be pitted against each other, and the fact that Marth's aerials still outrange it. Marth outranges all of Lucario's moves except side B (I haven't done enough testing on this one, but I think it has the same range as shield breaker). To try to say that Lucario is not outranged is to say that you don't know what Marth's ranges actually are.

and for the last time lucarios up b doing no damage means nothing.

It means everything!! It means that I can jump off the stage and just hit you out of it with whatever attack I want! It's not like you can actually defend yourself. And his up B not hitting his opponents also means that you can just sit on the edge and force him to recover to the stage (assuming you didn't already gimp him with fairs and nairs) then get up and charge a nice little shieldbreaker (or F-smash if you prefer. Shieldbreaker doesn't has more untipped knockback though, even at only half charge).

how many times do i have to say it, wolfs upb does a lot of damage but its still incredibly easy to gimp.

Lucario's up B is not much better, as it still has that horrible start up lag, but you can even hit him out his up B without any fear of retaliation. When you try to hit Marth out of his up B you'll just take it 'cause he's invincible. You might even get staged spiked. Lucario poses no such threat.

same applies for pretty much every character in the game. lucario can jut float back to the stage charging an aura sphere and if marth tries to attack him hes going to have to dodge that first.

Or he'll slash right through it because he has a sword you know. Swords don't actually take damage. If the Marth is letting you float back to the stage then he's not a good Marth. Marth's aerials outrange yours and go straight through aurasphere, so he has nothing to worry about. What's worse is that if he supsects you doing something like that, he can stay right out of your range and just float down with you. If you try to aurasphere, he'll just counter it and kill you. If you don't you float dangerously low. If you try to dair stall, he moves in and nairs you (which has rediculous knockback for an aerial). And at anytime he can just change his mind about floating down with you and fair you instead, since you can't hit him anyway. Explain how Marth is easier to edgeguard than that.

anyway off the stage aerial battles are pointless since airdodges negate that pretty much everytime.

Marth-*fair*
Lucario-*airdodge*
Marth-*fair again*
Lucario-*get hit because the airdodge just ended*

Yeah so... fail.

Anyway change it on the chart. It's a 6-4 easy if the Marth is particularly campy. Marths camp in people's faces. Too close to toss projectiles, and too far for them to hit with other attacks. This applies to Lucario just as much, if not more since Lucario players are not used to being on the recieving end of this.


If only Ike had less startup lag. Ike would be so much better if his moves didn't scream "I'M GOING TO ATTACK NOW!"

P.S. I know you've stated it as an even Matchup Emblem Lord, but I still don't really agree. I'm still waiting to see the other side of the matchup, but so far I haven't found anything that should really cause Marth any trouble, while I've found plenty of stuff against Lucario (both from personal experiecne and from matchup analysis.)

edit: I guess I should really stop making such lengthy posts. It's just that I felt the need to address all the flaws in that arguement.

 

[JJ259]

Originally Posted by Sonic The Hedgedawg View Post
Okay okay, maybe this argument will end if I can help.

Let's look at what each haracter's got on the other.

-Marth
Range
Strength
Weight
Recvovery

-Lucario
A projectile
I'm pretty sure that on the whole his moves are faster.


So I mean, look, it's against lucario from the start. His projectile can pack a punch from time to time, but is easily dodged or countered. Lucario is very reliant on the fact that he's difficult to approach due to large disjointed hitboxes, but marth's are even large making it much easier for marth to approach than lucario would like. I could be wrong, but I don't think lucario's approach game is very good against marth when he needs to be offensive... lucario's offensive game on the whole isn't as good as his defensive. Anyway, it's the zelda syndrome but worse. Both Zelda and lucario have nice big hitboxes but they are outranked by the reach of marth's sword, and lucario doesn't have the power or even weight of zelda and has a worse approach. Aside from this, marth's dominance extends to the air as well as the ground, and lucario is increadibly easily edguarded by marth since lucario's UB has no damage associated with it. Sorry lucario, there's just no way this match isn't in marth's favour. I'd put it AT LEAST 7/3 for marth.

That is so wrong i don't even want to get started, but I will anyway. Lucario definitely does NOT get outranged or out recovered by marth, there is just no way. thier weight is about even (lucario dies earlier vertically but some of marths main kill moves (IIRC) are off the side of the screen) and I'll give it to you that marth kills earlier but at the same time, lucario is a combo ***** and can easily gimp marth's sup par recovery off the edge or at least get him to a point where he won't be able to make it back.

I would say that their range is either about even or with lucario slightly ahead but not really enough to matter. They both have disjointed hitboxes and lucario's linger for a very long time.

In the air, Lucario outdoes marth. Marth has fair, which is awesome but lucario has fair, nair, dair and uair (not to mention nifty RAR'd bairs that will go through marths attacks) and all of them are able to combo off each other.

Recovery wise, Lucario has an advantage at every point OHTER than the fact that he can't hit with his upB (which in some situations can be a problem but 90% of the time it isn't).

They're even, deal with it. Otherwise, prove me wrong.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No you've got it wrong. Marth's fair does outrange Lucario's aerials. His nair does too. And that's all he needs! Marth does have a range advantage in the air. It's already been tested! And Marth's shield breaker outranges every one of Lucario's ground moves (except side B). Marth's f-tilt outranges everything except f-smash and side B! Marth out ranges Lucario. Get over it.

And you say Marth has no vertical kill moves? What do you call downsmash, up smash, uair, and up tilt then? I'd call them vertical kill moves.

Lucario is not a combo *****. Marth can counter, DI away and airdodge, up B, or even nair and side B in some cases (nair comes out in 3 frames, side b comes out in 4). So much for your combo. And Marth's recovery is one of the hardest to gimp, with him outranging your aerials and having one of the fastest moving up Bs in the game.

Recovery wise you're forgetting that Lucario's up B is slow and Lucario's aerials are outrange by Marth's fair and nair, which are kill moves off the stage!!!. Meanwhile Marth has an easy time making it back because his upB is fast, invincible on startup, very long ranged (vertically), has a large sweetspot range, and has a large hitbox in front of him. Lucairo wins in distance. But distance is not the only thing that matters. If your up B goes really far, but is also one of the easiest to gimp, then it doesn't really matter how far it goes does it?

 

[JJ259]

First of all, Lucario is one of the only characters who can actually combo (and by combo I mean not allowing the opponent to do anything). I'm sorry, it's been tested that you can't escape certain move strings that he can get off (I don't care how fast your nair is).

Talking about range, Lucario is completely able to use his range and rolling (the fastest and one of, if not, the longest range in the game) to outdo Marth.

Also, speaking of his aura sphere, it's one of the strongest range killing moves in the game and can be combo'd into quite easily. It can be used as an edge guarding technique and as a spamable projectile which forces Marth to approach.

By the way, it doesn't matter how far marth's ubB takes him vertically because Lucario can combo him so far off the stage that you won't be able to recover regardless.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Even if I give you guys the fact that lucario and marth ae roughly egual weightwise, that still doesn't cahnge the range and recovery.

A) Marth just outranges lucario... plain and simple.
B) Recovery isn't all about distance, marth is exceptionally hard to gimp... impossible for a lucaro almost. and lucario is fairly easy to gimp... really fairly easy to gimp.


as far as aura sphere. It's only really strong enough to kill when lucario is at high damages... and marth can kill lucario at under 100% and can actually rather easily dodge or counter the aura sphere... it's just not that great. Even among power projectiles, it's got nothing on charge shot or Din's fire.

Luacrio cannot "combo marth so far off the edge that he can't recover." Unless you plan on taking several fairs to the face and then watching marth recover anyway, don't even try it. Especially since most of lucario's moves pop people upwards making it even easier to recover.

So lucario has a fast roll... but, unfortunately, it won't roll past a marth if marth is at the range that marth's normally stay at. He'll be too close to THINK about using an aura sphere, but too far for you to hit him. if you try to roll away, he can chase you, and if you roll towards him, you are still completely within his range.


@ axiomnightmare: those characters DO match up well against Dedede... <_<

You have a question mark on the Wolf/Marth and a blank spot on the Wolf/Zelda.
I main Wolf, and have a fair amount of experience against a competitive Marth, and 2 competitive Zeldas.

On the Wolf boards, these 2 characters have been pretty much named the best counterpick against Wolf. Go there and check out their reasonings if you don't find mine adequate enough to modify your chart with.

Most of Wolf's aerial approaches to a landed Zelda result in getting stuck in her up smash. RAR shBair (Wolf's best midair priority move) even gets pulled into the attack. Wolf's 0-lag shFair can easily be sweetspotted by Zelda's hell foot, she can even start her short hop slightly after the Wolf and still manage to get the move through.

Since Wolf has the ability to do a 0-lag shFair (making his dair his only aerial with landing lag), his playing style has evolved to hitting someone with a short hopped aerial and DI'ing appropriately to try to keep somebody getting hitstunned by his other aerials, using his low-knockback uair as a bad-*** juggle move.
The problem with this is a character like Marth, who the more I try to chase, the better his attacks come in range, especially if he attacks soon to tip. The more aggro of a Wolf player you are, the better a Marth will be able to hit you, so you have to completely rethink your offense, and risk getting within sword-reach to get any hits in. Blaster is too slow of a projectile to really pull your attack strings together with against him as well.

Yeah, honestly my zelda destroys wolves... why is she matched up poorly against him in this chart. I also don't know why she matches up poorly against wario in this chart.

 

[JJ259]

Although marth may be hard to gimp during his actual recovery, his lack of distance allows you to gimp him simply by pushing him too far away to recover. A string of fairs by lucario followed by a dair can easily simply blow someone off the stage to the wall or push them too far to be able to make it back.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And you're forgetting that Marth is one of the only characters that doesn't need to combo, because all of his attacks do great damage and are decent kill moves.

And talking back about range, Marth is able to use his range to keep Lucario from actually landing any of those aerials that you're so proud of, and his shield breaker is great for punishing rolls. And rolling in no way out does Marth, as he also has one of the safest approaches in the game, with him being able to immediately retreat as soon as the situation looks bad. F-tilt, D-tilt, and Fair are all safe on block as Lucario will not be able to reach Marth before he can move again (and shield breaker is very hard to punish, which means that Marth has yet another approach option.) Rolling behind Marth is a no no, as Marth can just turn around and side B before your roll is over, trapping you in a nice 16-21% combo that refreshes Marth's other attacks and regenerates itself as well.

And aurasphere is only that strong when fully charged, or if Lucario has a lot of damage on him, because otherwise it's rather pathetic (especially if you've weakened it by trying to camp with auraspheres against Marth). As for edgeguarding I'd consider it completely useless against Marth. Uncharged auraspheres will be fair'd through, charged ones will be countered or airdodged, and it won't affect Marth's recovery in the slightest?

Did I forget to mention that it also has a decent bit of horizontal distance, and that Marth's side b gives him yet another vertical boost? Did I also forget to mention that you can easily escape fair chains by DIing away from the stage, and that afterwards Marth will be able to keep you from restarting a fair chain by simply fairing or nairing you (since it indeed has more range)?

Although marth may be hard to gimp during his actual recovery, his lack of distance allows you to gimp him simply by pushing him too far away to recover. A string of fairs by lucario followed by a dair can easily simply blow someone off the stage to the wall or push them too far to be able to make it back.

And If I simply DI away from the stage while you do that fair string? I don't have to take that fair string you know. Marth's recovery is good enough that he can DI away so he's out of range for your next fair, go under you, jump and up B on the other side and make it back to the stage. Not that dificult.

 

[The Executive]

Everyone edges out CF.

About Marth vs Wolf, well I do think Marth has slight advantage I don't think Marth ***** his **** or anything.

But we will see what happens in the future.

Yep, everyone but Squirtle. Anyhoo, I was only pointing that out because I thought it ridiculous that that particular match-up was still undecided. I mean, come on...I love Falcon like most people, but the developers killed him.

 

[JJ259]

And you're forgetting that Marth is one of the only characters that doesn't need to combo, because all of his attacks do great damage and are decent kill moves.

Are you forgetting that you didn't address the fact that Marth can't avoid the combo's that lucario can string together and only brought up a completely irrelevant fact in an attempt to try and disregard the advantage that it gives lucario?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And you're forgetting that Marth is one of the only characters that doesn't need to combo, because all of his attacks do great damage and are decent kill moves.

And talking back about range, Marth is able to use his range to keep Lucario from actually landing any of those aerials that you're so proud of, and his shield breaker is great for punishing rolls. And rolling in no way out does Marth, as he also has one of the safest approaches in the game, with him being able to immediately retreat as soon as the situation looks bad. F-tilt, D-tilt, and Fair are all safe on block as Lucario will not be able to reach Marth before he can move again (and shield breaker is very hard to punish, which means that Marth has yet another approach option.) Rolling behind Marth is a no no, as Marth can just turn around and side B before your roll is over, trapping you in a nice 16-21% combo that refreshes Marth's other attacks and regenerates itself as well.

And aurasphere is only that strong when fully charged, or if Lucario has a lot of damage on him, because otherwise it's rather pathetic (especially if you've weakened it by trying to camp with auraspheres against Marth). As for edgeguarding I'd consider it completely useless against Marth. Uncharged auraspheres will be fair'd through, charged ones will be countered or airdodged, and it won't affect Marth's recovery in the slightest?

Did I forget to mention that it also has a decent bit of horizontal distance, and that Marth's side b gives him yet another vertical boost? Did I also forget to mention that you can easily escape fair chains by DIing away from the stage, and that afterwards Marth will be able to keep you from restarting a fair chain by simply fairing or nairing you (since it indeed has more range)?

don't forget to add on that lucario's fair or dair can be DI'd upwards to make it even EASIER to recover than it was before he hit you.... or marth could just fair him to death if he tried o apporach him

at the other guy: the fact that "lucario hz teh comboz" is the only thing he's got going for him in the matchup is quite sad... and he didn't dodge that fact, he said that lucario's "combos" can be escaped and punished... lucario can't punish marth's go-to moves in return

 

[Dark Sonic]

Are you forgetting that you didn't address the fact that Marth can't avoid the combo's that lucario can string together and only brought up a completely irrelevant fact in an attempt to try and disregard the advantage that it gives lucario?

How about if Marth just DIs away and down on any fair chains, knocking him completely horizontally and out of range of other fairs.

edit:above post is sort of true, and it really depends on how far out they are when Lucario dairs. If Marth is about 3/4 of the way out from the edge of FD then he'll probably still die from the dair at higher percents. But since you're talking about gimp kills here then good DI will at least make the situation not get any worse than it was before the dair.

Assuming you even got him that far out.

 

[JJ259]

There's more to combo's than simply fair chains. Lucario can easily string together every aerial he has (other than Bair because it has too much of a knockback) into combos that are able to not only rack up a lot of damage but at the same time make it very hard for people to recover from off stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There's more to combo's than simply fair chains. Lucario can easily string together every aerial he has (other than Bair because it has too much of a knockback) into combos that are able to not only rack up a lot of damage but at the same time make it very hard for people to recover from off stage.

what you are missing is the fact that marth isn't most people... his sword (namely in the form of the fair) reaches far enough to whack lucario before he can whack you

 

[JJ259]

All that implies is that Lucario won't be able to jump into marth and start a combo in that way. His dthrow, fthrow, force palm throw, uptilt and many other moves set people up perfectly to start combos against.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

and then you'd just DI away to stop them... it's pretty simple really... but if he's going to use the combo to "push you off the edge" or "make it hard to recover" then he's not going to be able to initiate it on th ground... with a throw

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Dair doesn't combo either. And what you're forgetting is that Marth can actually defend himself from said edgeguards. Nairs and Uairs are pretty good at comboing, and fair chain is good for getting them off the stage (however, if they DI away from the stage themselves then they can escape the fair chains), but it's not like they're going to kill Marth anytime soon. And while that's all well and good at low percents, Marth will actually be trying to rack damage on you. Do you know why? Because it prevents you from being able to combo at all. Once that's gone you're easy picking. Marth haviing plenty of ways to rack damage just means that you'll be at higher percents more often (higher, being around 80-120%, as that's what Marths consider "high" for most characters).

Now before you say "well that just means you'll be easier to kill," remember that Lucario depends on those few combos to actually rack up damage. Hit for hit Lucario can't compete with Marth due to being out ranged in most cases and out damaged. So getting Lucarios to high percents is actually benifitial for Marths, as on average they will get hit less and at the same time be able to apply more pressure to Lucario (since he'll be knocking Lucario off the stage more at higher percents). Considering Marth excels at doing this, it can become quite a big advantage.

Also, Grabbing Marth is difficult thanks to his approaches that are safe on block and dodge. Uptilt is also outranged by fair and f-tilt, two of Marth's main approaches. So good luck landing that. Just saying. Lucario's range is by no means "bad." He does outrange most of the cast. But this is one of those few matchups where he doesn't have the range advanatage, and where he doesn't even have the speed advantage. And it shows.

 

[JJ259]

and then you'd just DI away to stop them... it's pretty simple really... but if he's going to use the combo to "push you off the edge" or "make it hard to recover" then he's not going to be able to initiate it on th ground... with a throw

Unless the throw involves the person flying off the edge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Unless the throw involves the person flying off the edge.

not a chance in hell that it's going to send them far enough away for a kill... not a chance. dude... just face it: Marth has an advantage over lucario... lucario just isn't well suited for marth's style of gameplay. I'd say more, but it's all been said, either by me or sonic wave.

Now that that's over with... somebody please explain to me why wolf and wario are listed as having an advantage over zelda.

 

[DanGR]

wolf should beat zelda b/c of his superior ground game. But wario, you got me there. he should definitely lose to zelda.

EDIT: hey, i've not played any good kirbys or yoshis, so...could anyone give me a brief synopsis as to why they beat olimar? i'm just wondering. I won't argue b/c idk much about these matchups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wolf should beat zelda b/c of his superior ground game. But wario, you got me there. he should definitely lose to zelda.

even wolf's ground game I've never found particularly troublesome with zelda's awsome priority... I though wolf players feared zelda.