Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[ROOOOY!]

This isn't flaming either, but that's not really an argument. Killing at low percentages is just about all Ganon has going for him.
I'm not sure myself how Ike has a large advantage over Ganon though.

 

[Kasai]

sorry, due to the angle of Ganon's F tilt, ike cannot recover if he is hit above 70%, try it yourself. snake, while at a higher percentage will either drop to his death or kill himself with C4.

ganon's jab can break D3s chain grab and his huge slow body is easy to hit. same goes for rob, hes big and slow, ganon out range him in the air or just spike his slow recovery.

Getting people to high percentages is hard, but very doable. Im not saying ganon is top tier, i just know for a fact he can actually beat some other character, especially ike, its too easy.


*edit* oh yeah, trying to correct someone isnt flaming.

If I remember correctly, quite a few pages back, there was a long (and I mean long) discussion on Ike v Ganon. It's not something that the OP just came up with. This chart is mainly just the added contributions of the whole community who decides to post here.

 

[Judge Judy]

I still wish someone would explain to me why the chart says Mario is at a disadvantage to Sonic.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

I don't agree with many of these. GOOD JOB ON THE EFFORT! I can see the work put into this.

 

[El Drago]

tru, i should have elaborated more on my 1st post. but, that fight i feel so much in ganon's favor i thought it needed no explanation. I mean, ganon is just faster than ike, can hit harder, can interrupt his vertical recovery with a spike, can sparta kick him at 70% and watch him die and theres nothing he can do.

The reason i said the OP didnt spend time with ganon is because most people think hes awful because hes so different than he used to be. It just looks to me he just labeled the stronger characters against him as advantages without trying it out. Matchups against characters like Lucas or Zelda are typically harder than meta knight or snake. Get me? It just looks like he looked at ganon and said "well he loses to everyone".

 

[Judge Judy]

I know how you feel, there's no way Mario is at a disadvantage to Sonic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*is not even gonna touch the mario argument*
Too late at night to get into an argument.

Drago yes we know Ganondorf is capable of killing Ike at such a low percent. He is also faster than Ike.
However Ike recovers a little better and has range and priority over Ganon. So at best it is neutral.

It really falls to how easy Ganon is capable of approaching Ike and if he is capable of placing Ike in sucha situation for an Ftilt or D tilt.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I still wish someone would explain to me why the chart says Mario is at a disadvantage to Sonic.

I'd like to see you throw some points out there as to why you don't agree with it. I think it's a neutral match up, anyway.
Mario can cause problems for Sonic's approach, with fireballs and FLUDD in particulars, though Side B does actually go through fireballs because of invincibilty frames. Cape **** is also annoying against Sonic, caping attacks like Fsmash just leave Sonic open to beatings.
Mario's too easy to gimp though, because his recovery sucks to be honest. Cape ****'s kinda easy to predict too so that shouldn't really have much effect. Sonic also beats him often in the air I find, though I haven't actually played a good Mario. With Mario's bad range too Sonic can play his hit and run game so when Mario misses a quite laggy move he's not hard to punish.
But then, I'm not an expert on this match up. Anyone wanna contribute?

Edit : Actually reading back on it, I'm feeling that this is more of a Sonic advantage, but I dunno :\

 

[El Drago]

*is not even gonna touch the mario argument*
Too late at night to get into an argument.

Drago yes we know Ganondorf is capable of killing Ike at such a low percent. He is also faster than Ike.
However Ike recovers a little better and has range and priority over Ganon. So at best it is neutral.

It really falls to how easy Ganon is capable of approaching Ike and if he is capable of placing Ike in sucha situation for an Ftilt or D tilt.

well i didnt come here to argue, i came here to correct the OP, if u disagree thats fine, but i would rather settle this by exchanging friend codes. Im that confident in my statement. Just PM me if you wanna see what im talking about.

 

[cutter]

I am confident that G&W has a huge advantage over Peach.

She has no good answer for the turtle since her attacks get outranged by it consistently. Without a good way to fight back the turtle with a ranged attack, Peach is in big trouble. In addition, Dtilt nullifies any attempts at turnip spam and acts as a huge spacer to keep her from approaching. G&W's smashes kill Peach extremely early and her Up B is easily punished due to it's predictability.

In the air, G&W dominates. Uair forces Peach's hand forcing her to DI or airdodge out, Dair is nearly impossible to beat other than shielding, Nair lasts through air dodges and has deceptive range, and I've already talked about the turtle.

I really don't see how this isn't a blowout matchup for G&W. Please prove me wrong.

 

[DanGR]

good analysis^. I agree

 

[???????]

I'd like to see you throw some points out there as to why you don't agree with it. I think it's a neutral match up, anyway.
Mario can cause problems for Sonic's approach, with fireballs and FLUDD in particulars, though Side B does actually go through fireballs because of invincibilty frames. Cape **** is also annoying against Sonic, caping attacks like Fsmash just leave Sonic open to beatings.
Mario's too easy to gimp though, because his recovery sucks to be honest. Cape ****'s kinda easy to predict too so that shouldn't really have much effect. Sonic also beats him often in the air I find, though I haven't actually played a good Mario. With Mario's bad range too Sonic can play his hit and run game so when Mario misses a quite laggy move he's not hard to punish.
But then, I'm not an expert on this match up. Anyone wanna contribute?

Edit : Actually reading back on it, I'm feeling that this is more of a Sonic advantage, but I dunno :\

This match-up is somewhat close but it's still very much tipped in Mario's favor; Mario can outprioritize all of Sonic's moves, has more reliable approach game than Sonic, and Mario's offensive game simply outclasses Sonic. Sonic can play a bit on Mario's lack of range but he still falls short of any true control over the match.

*Mario has decent offensive options while recovering, but his Up B can be gimped; Mario being very easy to gimp is a bit of an exaggeration*

*The match-up would probably be about 7/3 or 6/4 in Mario’s favor*

 

[ShadowLink84]

This match-up is somewhat close but it's still very much tipped in Mario's favor;

Contradictory sentence is contradictory.

Saying its close then saying its very tipped in Mario's statement>
It''s like saying Link has a close match with Snake but Snake has a massive advantage over Link.

Mario can outprioritize all of Sonic's moves,

So does the majority of the character sin the game.


however his moves don't cover a large amount of area like MK and Ike nor is his priority greater than Luigi who is mostly hit box.
Fair is outspeeded.
Bair does well.
Both their Uairs are good respectably.
Dair is more useful for Sonic IMO.


jabs cancel, F tilts cancel and Mario has to sweetspot his Fsmash before it can kill at early percents which can be difficult.

has more reliable approach game than Sonic,

No just no.
Have you ever seen a good Sonic user?
They can approach the majority of the cast. He is one of the few characters that can actually approach Olimar with a good amount of success and safety.
Mario cannot do that.

and Mario's offensive game simply outclasses Sonic.

Not really. they are both somewhat even in terms of offensive abiliuty. While Mario's Dsmash is faster than Sonic's, Sonic's stays out longer and has greater range.
His Fsmash can be stutterstepped greater than Mario's can and does not need to be sweetspotted.

Sonic can play a bit on Mario lack of range but still falls short of any true control over the match.

He can also set up Mario very aerial abuse.
Spindash breaks through fireballs. His fair has decent priority and can link into itself.
If Mario is above Sonic which will happen eventually Sonic can outrange him with his Uair and juggle Mario in the air.

*Mario has decent offensive options while recovering, but his Up B can be gimped; Mario being very easy to gimp is a bit of an exaggeration*

Of course its an exaggeration however Sonic is a character who can place Mario ins a situation where Mario will be hard pressed to recover. Mario does have his cape yes, but it isn't enough if Sonic spaces and considering its his best option offensively while recovering, Sonic can gimp him.

*The match-up would probably be about 7/3 or 6/4 in Mario’s favor*

7:3?

You're joking.
6:4?
you're joking.


Both mario and Sonic break even with each other.
Sonic can space, approach and gimp as well as gain aerial superiority. He also has a good grab game that sets up into presusring and chasing.

However Mario's defensive abilities can be difficult and his ground game is superior to Sonic's. Fludd isn't useful for edgeguarding sonic since Mario doesn't have the ability to edge guard him successfully.
He is however capable of using FluDD to space and make it difficult to approach and enable him to control the spacing of the match.
He can also use FLUDD and the cape to help get the pressure off when Sonic starts to pressure.

I highly doubt that Mario has an advantage.
Especially when you're saying that Mario has better approach options than Sonic.

in short, the game is neutral because neither character has a great advantage or disadvantage to the other. The game is really going to fall upon who can control the spacing and momentum of the match.

 

[Vaul]

whoever made this chart obviously hasnt put more than 5 minutes into playing ganon.

Ike has an advantage on ganon? let a lone a big one? come on, thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard, ganon can KO ike guaranteed at 70% and theres nothing he can do about it.

what about how ganon can KO snake at 100% guaranteed, or his advantages over ROB or Dedede?

Its still too early for this crap.

Goddammit Drago...

Of the 1887+ posts this thread has had, do you really think your adding anything to the table? Anything even REMOTELY informative? I'm assuming you haven't followed the evolution of Ivan's matchup chart at all, and that you just discovered it yesterday. You didn't come here to argue, but you want the OP to 'correct' the matchup according to your post? The real world doesn't work like that, you actually have to participate in rational debate and be prepared to defend your arguments. Ganon can kill Ike at 70%?!??!? Really?!!?! Guess what: Ike can kill Ganon at 70%. Your post is equivilant of spam as far as how valuable it is.

This matchup chart wasn't made yesterday, and by no means did IvanEva make it using his own judgement. It's based off the 1887+ posts, arguments, and counter arguments made by (some) rational people who specialize in their respective mains and are willing to listen to the views of other mains. This obviously does not apply to you. "It's still too early for this crap?" Really? Guess what....that was said months ago. This matchup chart is not absolute by any means, it is constantly changing and always debateable. Experience veteran smashers who once dismissed this chart now credit it for being an honest attempt to explain character specifics. It may not be perfect, but it always strives to be.

If you don't agree with the Ike v Ganon matchup, please, by all means, convince us why it should be changed. The OP isn't going to change it because you demand so. He's not your parent and going to spoil you everytime you demand something. Earn it.

And thanks for further reinforcing the basic stereotypes of 2008 join date members. You're awesomeness is unparalled.

EDIT - @ShadowLink: I still plan on continuing the Samus v Sonic discussion. I've just taken the liberty to bring it up to the Samus boards to view any other input and will check the Sonic boards to do the same.

 

[ShadowLink84]

okay Vaul. I shall do the same of course.

 

[???????]

Contradictory sentence is contradictory.

Saying its close then saying its very tipped in Mario's statement>
It''s like saying Link has a close match with Snake but Snake has a massive advantage over Link.

True.

So does the majority of the character sin the game.


however his moves don't cover a large amount of area like MK and Ike nor is his priority greater than Luigi who is mostly hit box.
Fair is outspeeded.
Bair does well.
Both their Uairs are good respectably.
Dair is more useful for Sonic IMO.

That doesn't change the fact that Sonic is severely outprioritized.

jabs cancel, F tilts cancel and Mario has to sweetspot his Fsmash before it can kill at early percents which can be difficult.

No just no.
Have you ever seen a good Sonic user?
They can approach the majority of the cast. He is one of the few characters that can actually approach Olimar with a good amount of success and safety.
Mario cannot do that.

Yes I have and Mario has more feasible approaches than you give him credit for; Mario can approach a characters like Olimar relatively safe and successfully.

Not really. they are both somewhat even in terms of offensive abiliuty. While Mario's Dsmash is faster than Sonic's, Sonic's stays out longer and has greater range.
His Fsmash can be stutterstepped greater than Mario's can and does not need to be sweetspotted.

Mario stutter step is nearly the same length as Sonic's and the only way you will have trouble sweetspotting Mario's Fsmash is at point blank range. Also, Mario's Dsmash also has more priority, power, and can be set up and directly used out of Mario's Ftilt.

He can also set up Mario very aerial abuse.
Spindash breaks through fireballs. His fair has decent priority and can link into itself.
If Mario is above Sonic which will happen eventually Sonic can outrange him with his Uair and juggle Mario in the air.

Spindash can be stopped by F.L.U.D.D. and Mario's Nair still outprioritizes Sonic's Uair; Mario doesn't depend on fireballs to approach and he isn't very easy to juggle.

Of course its an exaggeration however Sonic is a character who can place Mario ins a situation where Mario will be hard pressed to recover. Mario does have his cape yes, but it isn't enough if Sonic spaces and considering its his best option offensively while recovering, Sonic can gimp him.

Mario also has his fireballs and the F.L.U.D.D.; his Up B is gimpable but don't expect to be able to do much more than that.

7:3?

You're joking.
6:4?
you're joking.

Both mario and Sonic break even with each other.
Sonic can space, approach and gimp as well as gain aerial superiority. He also has a good grab game that sets up into presusring and chasing.

However Mario's defensive abilities can be difficult and his ground game is superior to Sonic's. Fludd isn't useful for edgeguarding sonic since Mario doesn't have the ability to edge guard him successfully.
He is however capable of using FluDD to space and make it difficult to approach and enable him to control the spacing of the match.
He can also use FLUDD and the cape to help get the pressure off when Sonic starts to pressure.

I highly doubt that Mario has an advantage.
Especially when you're saying that Mario has better approach options than Sonic.

I'll think more about Sonic's approaches but I doubt you are aware of all of the approaches Mario has.

in short, the game is neutral because neither character has a great advantage or disadvantage to the other. The game is really going to fall upon who can control the spacing and momentum of the match.

I'll settle for even right now, but I may bring up this argument again in the future; there's obviously a knowledge gap between both of us on each others characters. I propose that we both learn as much as we can and return to this argument; until we both have decent arguments on each others characters that we can at least somewhat agree with, this discussion will be futile.

*I apologize if anything that I have said is seen as offensive*

 

[ShadowLink84]

That doesn't change the fact that Sonic is severely outprioritized.

Of course not. However Sonic does have ways to get around it, while characters like MK and Luigi who are mostly hitbox or whose attack box is covering a large portion of their body are harder for Sonic tog et to.

Yes I have and Mario has more feasible approaches than you give him credit for; Mario can approach a characters like Olimar relatively safe and successfully.

Really? Can you provide a video where Mario has taken on an Olimar and approached safely?

Mario stutter step is nearly the same length as Sonic's and the only way you will have trouble sweetspotting Mario's Fsmash is at point blank range. Also, Mario's Dsmash also has more priority, power, and can be set up and directly used out of Mario's Ftilt.

I mentioned this earlier in my post.
No Mario's isn';t a Long.
The initial dash rame for Sonic goes on a greater distance than Mario's giveing Sonic greater range. He moves at least one or two steps farther ahead.
The sweetspot can be an issue since most of the time you are going to be close when you need to land that Fsmash.

Dsmash from Sonic is usually used for defensive opponents since the greater amount of range and duration allow him to catch dodgy opponents. Granted it lacks knockback but does knock them far enough away to prevent a counter attack.

Spindash can be stopped by F.L.U.D.D. and Mario's Nair still outprioritizes Sonic's Uair; Mario doesn't depend on fireballs to approach and he isn't very easy to juggle.

Except that FLUDD needs toc harge and Sonic can use his spindashes and spincharges very quickly. Not only that spinshotting is a viable way to get past the FLUDD.
Not sure why you're saying Mario's Nair beats out Sonic's. The point at where Sonic's feet clap outranges Mario's Nair and I have never gotten hit out of it by Mario's Nair unless I didn't space properly.

Mario also has his fireballs and the F.L.U.D.D.; his Up B is gimpable but don't expect to be able to do much more than that.

Except that Sonic also has more options besides his ^B and the ^B has dodge frames making FLUDD useless to use against it during several points.
The fireballs are also overprioritized by Sonic's Fair and sonic's Spindash.
Not only that but Sonic can instantly stop his dash incase he feels threatened by a fireball or feels he cannot get close enough to Mario in time for a regular shield dash.

I'll settle for even right now, but I may bring up this argument again in the future; there's obviously a knowledge gap between both of us on each others characters. I propose that we both learn as much as we can and return to this argument; until we both have decent arguments on each others characters that we can at least somewhat agree with, this discussion will be futile.

*I apologize if anything that I have said is seen as offensive*

No of course you haven't I apologize if I gave off the idea that I was offended.
I'll try to gather as uch information and I'll use this week to use Mario and address your argumentswhen you present them.

 

[cHooKay]

????????? thanks for the invite, dude I would so like to join in on this sonic debate, but its seems rather pointless. I practically left this thread for the fact that arguing over something as biased as this seems pointless. People usually stick to their guns sadly, its pretty hard to convince people otherwise. I guess I'll try a little anyways..

No matter what you say Shadowlink84, Sonic has HORRIBLE PRIORITY. That certainly is the case against mario. You can't just lie about this, this places sonic at a disadvantage against many characters, INCLUDING MARIO who can pretty much out prioritize most of sonics moveset. Like for instance, that's why mario has a disadvantage against metaknight, because mario is severely out prioritzed by him, and since sonic is severely out prioritized against mario, sonic shouldn't have an advantage over mario. As a matter of fact, sonic should be either neutral or placed as an disadvantage against mario because of that fact.

You can't fight facts with facts in most cases too, at least when your against mario. For instance, you stated that "His Fsmash can be stutterstepped greater than Mario's can and does not need to be sweetspotted" in one of your post. This has ZERO significance as to why sonic has an ADVANTAGE over mario, just because sonic moves slightly more than mario when he does that stutter step, it doesn't imply that it will GIMP mario in any way. Furthermore, even if a mario mainer didn't sweetspot their fsmash against sonic, it still has a pretty good KO potential. You can get KO'd regardless of whether or not you sweet spot marios fsmash, and it still competes against the knockback of sonics fsmash.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound insulting or rude, but I'm just going to call you out shadowlink84, I mean because you obviously have to had main sonic to state all those facts about him. Let's battle wifi. Prove to me that sonic has somewhat of an significant "advantage" over mario, I'll save the replay and post it up later....

 

[ShadowLink84]

No matter what you say Shadowlink84, Sonic has HORRIBLE PRIORITY.
snip the rest of the crap

Sorry Mario isn't disadvantaged against MK just cause of his priority.
It is far far more than that.

There are also cases in which a character has worse priority than the other character but they aren't necessarily at a disadvantage.


Link has more priority than a good amount of the cast yet he is still disadvantaged against those such as Wario.

You can't fight facts with facts in most cases too,

LOL wut?

For instance, you stated that "His Fsmash can be stutterstepped greater than Mario's can and does not need to be sweetspotted" in one of your post.

Correct.

This has ZERO significance as to why sonic has an ADVANTAGE over mario,

no cause it only means that Sonic doesn't have a risk of screwing up an Fsmash when hitting an opponent.
It has significance just a Luigi's ^B craps out if not sweetspotted.
of course for Mario it isn't as great an issue but at times it could cause problems if he really needs to get that kill. Especially against characters with great recoveries.

just because sonic moves slightly more than mario when he does that stutter step, it doesn't imply that it will GIMP mario in any way.

Who said anything about gimping?

Furthermore, even if a mario mainer didn't sweetspot their fsmash against sonic, it still has a pretty good KO potential.

Please state where I said otherwise.
you can kill with a nonsweetspotted Fsmash however the damage required is higher.
Who honestly wants that?

You can get KO'd regardless of whether or not you sweet spot marios fsmash, and it still competes against the knockback of sonics fsmash.

And?
No one is arguing this point so I fail to see why you even mention it.
However the point is how easily it is for Mario to KO.
When you do sweetspot it the distance in knock back is minimal.
He doesn't need to sweetspot but it can make a difference in whether or not the opponent dies.
Since at anytime after 100% both Sonic's Fsmash and mario's Fsmash will kill at the edge. If Mario wants to get an early kill its better off for him to get that sweetspot, since even if it doesn't kill, that just makes the distance greater for Sonic to recover and would help in edge guarding.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound insulting or rude, but I'm just going to call you out shadowlink84, I mean because you obviously have to had main sonic to state all those facts about him. Let's battle wifi. Prove to me that sonic has somewhat of an significant "advantage" over mario, I'll save the replay and post it up later....

It's not "had" that's past tense. I MAIN Sonic is what you mean, ( I also main Wolf but thats something else entirely)

You don't mean to sound insulting nor rude but you call me biased(and also say I won't change my argumentw whiel previous posts say otherwise) and you also claim that all the points I made have zero significance.

Not only that you also insinuate tons of things I haven't even said or insinuated in my posts.

Never stated that it was significant, don't out words in my mouth.

I will play you online but I can't guarantee the quality of it. I am using a neighbors router since I am not at my regular home so if it lags badly then I am just going to reset my game and save it for another day.

 

[Kasai]

I was just looking over the chart and I can't for the life of me think of any reason why squirtle has an advantage over lucario...I mean, lucario has more range, power, a better air game...not to mention aura (which will build up because squirtle won't be killing lucario very early).

Someone enlighten me if there is a reason but otherwise, I'm at a loss here.

 

[cHooKay]

Errr yeah, all your previous statements towards mario vs sonic.

Hmm. Sigh, just as I expected, this dudes goes "Flame on" just like Johny from the fantastic 4 all over my reply, and then isn't too eager to prove it with a battle....

Which is why I now stay away from these things.
No progress is being made, I CAN go all ape like you did, and counter all of your statements with facts. But then you'll just do the same, the cycle repeats over and over and over and over. You just think that every single thing that you stated will just fall into your plan when you battle. You think that I'm just going to use the fsmash to kill you, that I won't be able to charge FLUDD and use it effectively against a sonic mainer(according to that statement ?????? made about fludd and your reply to it), that you have the ability to dodge and cancel every single fireball a mario mainer throws at ya with sonic? You must of reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaally thought this one through for you to figure out every single thing a mario mainer will do against a sonic

I dunno, your statements in general sound a tad bit CPU'ish if you asked me....

This can be only proven through a battle between mainers...

Battle me through wifi, battle a well known mario mainer, or any other good mario mainer out there to prove it. Record the replay as video evidence, and prove to me and every other person who thinks otherwise of this biased chart that sonic is that "GREAT" of a character to have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over mario that would make mario have a hard time battling against him...

If you battle me, I'll post up the match and others can debate it. Let's just make it fair, so that we can end this debate...

 

[???????]

Of course not. However Sonic does have ways to get around it, while characters like MK and Luigi who are mostly hitbox or whose attack box is covering a large portion of their body are harder for Sonic tog et to.

Dair, Nair, Uair, Usmash, and Dsmash are all attacks that are mostly hitbox and cover most of Mario's body.

Really? Can you provide a video where Mario has taken on an Olimar and approached safely?

I'll try, but I'll have to either make my own or request one from Boss, Monk, or BO X7.

I mentioned this earlier in my post.
No Mario's isn';t a Long.
The initial dash rame for Sonic goes on a greater distance than Mario's giveing Sonic greater range. He moves at least one or two steps farther ahead.
The sweetspot can be an issue since most of the time you are going to be close when you need to land that Fsmash.

Sonic's stutter step is longer but Mario's Fsmash is longer in general; when comparing each other's Fsmash range with the stutter step they still are about equal (Sonic's stutter step is still really long though...).

Dsmash from Sonic is usually used for defensive opponents since the greater amount of range and duration allow him to catch dodgy opponents. Granted it lacks knockback but does knock them far enough away to prevent a counter attack.

It still lacks priority and it leaves you very open regardless.

Except that FLUDD needs toc harge and Sonic can use his spindashes and spincharges very quickly. Not only that spinshotting is a viable way to get past the FLUDD.
Not sure why you're saying Mario's Nair beats out Sonic's. The point at where Sonic's feet clap outranges Mario's Nair and I have never gotten hit out of it by Mario's Nair unless I didn't space properly.

F.L.U.D.D. is useful even uncharged with it's tipper. Also, I'll check some more on Sonic's options when attempting to juggle Mario but I'm fairly certain you can knock Sonic out of his Uair with Mario's Nair if you time it right.

Except that Sonic also has more options besides his ^B and the ^B has dodge frames making FLUDD useless to use against it during several points.
The fireballs are also overprioritized by Sonic's Fair and sonic's Spindash.
Not only that but Sonic can instantly stop his dash incase he feels threatened by a fireball or feels he cannot get close enough to Mario in time for a regular shield dash.

Mario can still Capedash, approach with his Dair, and even approach safely with a wavebounced cape (Special recoiled cape sounds very odd). Don't forget that Mario can shield dash and dash dance too.

No of course you haven't I apologize if I gave off the idea that I was offended.
I'll try to gather as uch information and I'll use this week to use Mario and address your argumentswhen you present them.

Don't worry, that's just a disclaimer to avoid liability, I put on all my posts when I get engaged in a controversial discussion. Also, I'll try to get as much information as I can on Sonic as well so we can have a decent discussion; right now I feel that we're both speculating too much.

*I apologize if anything that I've said is seen as offensive*

 

[ShadowLink84]

No progress is being made, I CAN go all ape like you did, and counter all of your statements with facts.

So basically you refuse to produce any sort of debate and choose to behave the exact way that you yourself have accused me of behaving?

Hypocrisy FTW

If you battle me, I'll post up the match and others can debate it. Let's just make it fair, so that we can end this debate...

This proves you didn't read ANYTHING that I have said otherwise you wouldn't be typing this right now.
Go and read my post chookay.

@:???????

Dair, Nair, Uair, Usmash, and Dsmash are all attacks that are mostly hitbox and cover most of Mario's body.

True but the Daur gets outranged by Sonic's Uair.
Nair I've clashed it with the initial frames of Sonic's Nair. I am sure it does have more priority during Sonic's Nair but I think once its bene used initially that it would clash.

Uair I don't believe Sonic would remain int he air long enough. Mainly since Sonic users really can't handl;e anyone being under them usually (as is the case for most characters).

Usmash and Dsmash can be hard to set up properly

As I mentioned Sonic isn't going to go toe to toe with many of Mario's moves.
Even when he does he usually attacks where its going to be hurtbox so that worst case scenario is that they both clash and get sent flying.

Sonic's Usmash is also capable of breaking all of Mario's aerials and the spindash can break it (but only during the initial hop where it has its most priority)

Sonic does have an issue with priority, this is not saying it won't affect him, however when facing Mario it wouldn't affect him as badly as say MK or Luigi (whom I have more truble against from experience)

Sonic's stutter step is longer but Mario's Fsmash is longer in general; when comparing each other's Fsmash range with the stutter step they still are about equal (Sonic's stutter step is still really long though...).

I was testing on FD .
Center.
If I did Sonic's stutter step perfectly I would end up outside of the first green corner.
With Mario I ended up right on top of the green corner.
Sonic's doesn't have that much range over Mario but it is indeed Longer.
Worst case scenario for Sonic though is that they hit the same range.
Kinda tough for Sonic since its harder to time his full stutter step correctly.

It still lacks priority and it leaves you very open regardless.

That's true but the Dsmash would be used only if the opponent dodges and if the Dsmash had a good chance of hitting the opponent. Otherwise Soni would be punished.

At least Mario has a greater amount of speed and setups for his own Dsmash and can spot dodge to Dsmash more safely.

.L.U.D.D. is useful even uncharged with it's tipper. Also, I'll check some more on Sonic's options when attempting to juggle Mario but I'm fairly certain you can knock Sonic out of his Uair with Mario's Nair if you time it right.

Tipper?
I am probably thinking something else.
I don't really find it overly useful against Sonic because usually there is the moment to pull it out and the time in which he stops firing water.
IMO I find it better to use fro afar when charged since uncharged my opponent has a better ability to get close even when I push them back. I am probably not doing it right though.

Yes you can knock Sonic out of his Uair but it has to occur during the first hit, if its attempted after the second hit of Sonic's Uair you'll typically get outranged.
It's the issue that Pit users run into whent hey attempt to Dair Sonic out of his Uair.

Mario can still Capedash, approach with his Dair, and even approach safely with a wavebounced cape (Special recoiled cape sounds very odd). Don't forget that Mario can shield dash and dash dance too.

I am not too familiar with capedashing. I probably am thinking something else.

Don't worry I understand what you mean with the wavebounce its not odd at all when you think of Lucas' recoiling PSI magnet.
Mario can shield dash but he doesn't slide as much as Sonic does. (mainly due to Sonic's speed) and dash dancing isn't as effective as Sonic's (mainly again due to speed).
He can do it thats for sure but not to the extent that Sonic can (I've tried experimenting and the range of Mario's shield dash grab is lesser than Sonic's due to the speed).


I agree that it is speculation (largely since both Sonic and Mario users are scarce in comparison to a few others *coughhackMKhackCough*.

As I said I'll use Mario for about a week and try to master the techniques you mentioned such as wavebouncing his cape, and using the tipper.(once I find out what it is. TO THE MARIO FORUM!)

 

[Browny]

sonic has a hard time versus mario, probably one of the harder match ups but i dont think its enough to warrant am X. if anything id put it at 6/4 marios way, but like G&W, lucario, marth etc sonic can abuse certain approach tactics non stop and cant be punished for it whether they work or not. marios fireballs are practically useless when side b goes through them. with this is mind i feel it tends towards a neutral matchup. because in similar situations, when comparing characters like G&W, you always have to consider whether the opponent can do anything to stop the turtle. theres not much mario can do to stop or punish a properly spaced spin charge approach.


also time for controversy

imo, Lucario is disadvantaged against snake, ROB, olimar, G&W. Pikachu, pit, zelda and DK are soft disadvantages (hardly worth an X, closer to neutral) while the rest are all either neutral or advantaged to lucario.
every other character either cant touch him in the air, cant do anything to stop aura spheres or gets chain grabbed something painful.

 

[Kiwikomix]

LoL @ ChooKay.... I remember a WiFi battle was your solution to a Kirby vs. Mario matchup as well. Then you mysteriously disappeared for a while once I wanted to play. Oh well, it likely wouldn't have been an accurate reflection of the matchup if it's close anyway, since WiFi screws up everyone's fights.

 

[ShadowLink84]

video of mario vs Sonic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgo3un_2aI
Both are decent users of their respective characters.


I think this points more to neutral.

 

[???????]

True but the Daur gets outranged by Sonic's Uair.
Nair I've clashed it with the initial frames of Sonic's Nair. I am sure it does have more priority during Sonic's Nair but I think once its bene used initially that it would clash.

I'll also mention the Fair, but it would probably be too slow to always time correctly.

Uair I don't believe Sonic would remain int he air long enough. Mainly since Sonic users really can't handl;e anyone being under them usually (as is the case for most characters).

That's going to be a big minus since Mario's air game can be destructive if you can't outclass or outmaneuver it at all; one of the main reasons Mr. Game & Watch, Diddy Kong, and Meta Knight are considered tough match-ups for Mario is because they can outprioritize Mario's aerials and keep Mario from controlling the air.

Usmash and Dsmash can be hard to set up properly

Sometimes, but they're quick enough to be set up using fireballs or the F.L.U.D.D.; I suppose that this is irrelevant though, looking back on your previous statements on fireballs and the F.L.U.D.D. (The Usmash is usually saved as a finisher but I can see the Dsmash being a bit overused).

As I mentioned Sonic isn't going to go toe to toe with many of Mario's moves.
Even when he does he usually attacks where its going to be hurtbox so that worst case scenario is that they both clash and get sent flying.

Sonic's Usmash is also capable of breaking all of Mario's aerials and the spindash can break it (but only during the initial hop where it has its most priority)

Sonic does have an issue with priority, this is not saying it won't affect him, however when facing Mario it wouldn't affect him as badly as say MK or Luigi (whom I have more truble against from experience)

You seem to assume that a player using Mario will stick to camping and playing defensively; Mario has a large array of moves and strategies that are intended to pressure opponents (Fireballs, WoP, F.L.U.D.D., etc.).

Luigi has more power and priority in general but he has his own issues (Luigi is an intimidating character to fight against but he has his weaknesses...).

I was testing on FD .
Center.
If I did Sonic's stutter step perfectly I would end up outside of the first green corner.
With Mario I ended up right on top of the green corner.
Sonic's doesn't have that much range over Mario but it is indeed Longer.
Worst case scenario for Sonic though is that they hit the same range.
Kinda tough for Sonic since its harder to time his full stutter step correctly.

True.

That's true but the Dsmash would be used only if the opponent dodges and if the Dsmash had a good chance of hitting the opponent. Otherwise Soni would be punished.

At least Mario has a greater amount of speed and setups for his own Dsmash and can spot dodge to Dsmash more safely.

True.

Tipper?
I am probably thinking something else.
I don't really find it overly useful against Sonic because usually there is the moment to pull it out and the time in which he stops firing water.
IMO I find it better to use fro afar when charged since uncharged my opponent has a better ability to get close even when I push them back. I am probably not doing it right though.

Hitting the tip of head of your opponent with the F.L.U.D.D. gives drastically increased pushback; around fifty percent extra pushback (You must hit with the tip during the entire stream or pushback will be reduced; requires good aim and control with the F.L.U.D.D.).

I use the F.L.U.D.D. defensively most of the time, but I also sometimes use it to pressure opponents as well.

Yes you can knock Sonic out of his Uair but it has to occur during the first hit, if its attempted after the second hit of Sonic's Uair you'll typically get outranged.
It's the issue that Pit users run into whent hey attempt to Dair Sonic out of his Uair.

Yes, that means juggling Mario is more based off the players than the actual characters themselves.

I am not too familiar with capedashing. I probably am thinking something else.

It's listed on Jewdo's AT thread list as a Mario AT.

Don't worry I understand what you mean with the wavebounce its not odd at all when you think of Lucas' recoiling PSI magnet.
Mario can shield dash but he doesn't slide as much as Sonic does. (mainly due to Sonic's speed) and dash dancing isn't as effective as Sonic's (mainly again due to speed).
He can do it thats for sure but not to the extent that Sonic can (I've tried experimenting and the range of Mario's shield dash grab is lesser than Sonic's due to the speed).

I wasn't saying that special recoil is odd, I was simply saying the name "Special recoiled cape" is odd as opposed the term a "Wavebounced cape". Also, I was only pointing out that Mario can do many of the same things Sonic can do; Sonic is clearly more effective at both tactics than Mario, but there isn't really much of an advantage to gain considering on how useful those tactics are, especially in comparison to how useful they are for Mario in the first place (Although Sonic is more effective at both tactics, the net gain for using them is virtually the same for Mario anyway).

I agree that it is speculation (largely since both Sonic and Mario users are scarce in comparison to a few others *coughhackMKhackCough*.

As I said I'll use Mario for about a week and try to master the techniques you mentioned such as wavebouncing his cape, and using the tipper.(once I find out what it is. TO THE MARIO FORUM!)

True, and I hope that all characters eventually receive a feasible amount of representation.

*I apologize is anything that I have said is seen as offensive*

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'll also mention the Fair, but it would probably be too slow to always time correctly.

Probably, that ois one move that absolutely demands exact timing. SOmething Mario can't afford with Sonic trying to pressure him.

That's going to be a big minus since Mario's air game can be destructive if you can't outclass or outmaneuver it at all; one of the main reasons Mr. Game & Watch, Diddy Kong, and Meta Knight are considered tough match-ups for Mario is because they can outprioritize Mario's aerials and keep Mario from controlling the air.

Well Sonic canout manuever Mario in the air. Spinshotting really aids him in increasing his aerial speed and his base aerial speed is superior to Mario's.
Fair and Bair also help move Sonic and manuever him about similar to Mario's Bair.

Sometimes, but they're quick enough to be set up using fireballs or the F.L.U.D.D.; I suppose that this is irrelevant though, looking back on your previous statements on fireballs and the F.L.U.D.D. (The Usmash is usually saved as a finisher but I can see the Dsmash being a bit overused).

Well Dsmash doesn't ahve has much KO power as the Fsmash and Usmash do correct?
in which case I don't think Mario would suffer from overusing his Dsmash.

You seem to assume that a player using Mario will stick to camping and playing defensively; Mario has a large array of moves and strategies that are intended to pressure opponents (Fireballs, WoP, F.L.U.D.D., etc.).

Of course not.
Howeer Sonic has the ability to escape pressure. Via his ^B and spindash and charges.
Spinshotting as I mentioned also helps him maneuver aerially.
It can be difficult for Mario to maintain pressure.

Luigi has more power and priority in general but he has his own issues (Luigi is an intimidating character to fight against but he has his weaknesses...).

True but I find him to be much more difficult than Mario. His aerial moves are better, faster and link into each other fluidly. His priority is also greater and his fireballs for some odd reason sometimes cut through Sonic's spindash when they aren't supposed to cut through.


jab to ^B is also very easy to set up and very deadly, something that Sonic really cannot handle with his light weight.

Hitting the tip of head of your opponent with the F.L.U.D.D. gives drastically increased pushback; around fifty percent extra pushback (You must hit with the tip during the entire stream or pushback will be reduced; requires good aim and control with the F.L.U.D.D.).

Ah. I think that could be an issue.
Mainly since Sonic could reduce its effectiveness with the spincharge and possibly nullify it. That and his ability to move vertically extremely quickly could pose problems. I can see it being used for edge guarding

I use the F.L.U.D.D. defensively most of the time, but I also sometimes use it to pressure opponents as well.

Yeah I've been experimenting, it does best defensively but its offensive usage can be useful.

Yes, that means juggling Mario is more based off the players than the actual characters themselves.

Somewhat. It is partially inherent and partially on the player. It requires spacing more so than sheer priority like Ike's Uair.

It's listed on Jewdo's AT thread list as a Mario AT.

Cool i'll look it up.

I wasn't saying that special recoil is odd, I was simply saying the name "Special recoiled cape" is odd as opposed the term a "Wavebounced cape". Also, I was only pointing out that Mario can do many of the same things Sonic can do; Sonic is clearly more effective at both tactics than Mario, but there isn't really much of an advantage to gain considering on how useful those tactics are, especially in comparison to how useful they are for Mario in the first place (Although Sonic is more effective at both tactics, the net gain for using them is virtually the same for Mario anyway).

I would have to disagree a bit.
Mainly since dash shield grabbing benefits Sonic in that it allows him t juggle or place the opponent under the stage (Dthrow).

For Mario I find it useful for sending the opponent off for an edgeguard rather than a quick combo (unless its lower percentages)

True, and I hope that all characters eventually receive a feasible amount of representation.

*I apologize is anything that I have said is seen as offensive*

Blargh that'll only happen once we have something along the lines of L canceling.
Main issue with SNake is that most can't approach him very quickly.

Hmm maybe Link...

 

[BoTastic!]

Hmm, interresting. I never really have problems with sonic. Normally a camping sonic but thats it. His priority screws him over and his lack of kill moves.

 

[???????]

Well, the only thing left that I can really dispute at this point is that Mario’s Dthrow sets up attacks as reliably as Sonic's.

 

[DanGR]

@^maybe it'd be better if you got a second opinion on the matchup, unless y'all both think you're going somewhere with your discussion. It's seems you both're at a stand still and you're not making any progress. Just a suggestion though. If I'm wrong, then please, continue.

 

[???????]

No, you're right, this discussion is going nowhere; I had predicted that this would most likely occur (There’s simply just too much of a knowledge gap; too much speculation on both sides).

*We need good second opinions for both sides of the debate*

 

[BoTastic!]

No, you're right, this discussion is going nowhere; I had predicted that this would most likely occur (There’s simply just too much of a knowledge gap; too much speculation on both sides).

*We need good second opinions on both sides of the debate*

yeah i agree

 

[Jekyll]

*is not even gonna touch the mario argument*
Too late at night to get into an argument.

Drago yes we know Ganondorf is capable of killing Ike at such a low percent. He is also faster than Ike.
However Ike recovers a little better and has range and priority over Ganon. So at best it is neutral.

It really falls to how easy Ganon is capable of approaching Ike and if he is capable of placing Ike in sucha situation for an Ftilt or D tilt.

Ike can be hit with a Jab, D-tilt or F-tilt after being grabbed with an over-B. If it's true that F-tilt at 70% = death for Ike, then there's no way that this is as one-sided as the chart says.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Urgh... could you make it numbers like Phanna's SSBM chart? This is unreadable to me and could be the same to many others.

 

[Kasai]

Urgh... could you make it numbers like Phanna's SSBM chart? This is unreadable to me and could be the same to many others.

Honestly I think that numbers would be a whole lot more unreadable and confusing (not to mention harder to follow).

Also, people are still arguing the advantage/disadvantage on many of the matchups on the board...there is no where near enough agreement on the current matchups to justify putting any amount of certainty in numbers.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Numbers are more accurate.

 

[???????]

video of mario vs Sonic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgo3un_2aI
Both are decent users of their respective characters.


I think this points more to neutral.

darkNES isn't a very good Mario, nor does he main Mario; that was not a very good example.

 

[Kasai]

Numbers are more accurate.

Exactly my point. We don't even have agreed upon advantage vs disadvantage statistics. There is no way there could be any decently accurate numbers because there is still constant debate on who wins in matchups. Numbers could only be added after ALL of the disputes about advantage/disadvantage are over. Even then, I still prefer the current system because numbers not only cause much, much more debate but are also way, way harder to finalize. (who says that character x has 7/3 or 6/4 vs character y?) It's too "infinitely" debatable.

 

[???????]

True, the people discussing here are just giving rough estimates, if even that; we honestly don't know the numbers and are just throwing around some rough ideas of how match-ups would go (Hopefully I'm not too out of order for speaking on the people's behalf).