MisterDrBob
Smash Apprentice
Interesting chart. A little hard to read at first, but very informative.
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Brawl Character Match-Up chart
- Thread starter IvanEva
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About Lucario...
Lucario vs. Snake should be even. Lucario's F-smash>Snake's tilts. Lucario in the air>>>Snake. Both are heavy. Snake has a powerful aerial game, but Lucario's has lingering, large, and fast hitboxes, but Snake's ground game is great, so they're even.
This thread backs my claim.
Lucario vs. Olimar is even, too. If Olimar uses his forward B on Lucario, he can just use down B for easy damage/easy kill (unless it's shielded). Olimar has a fine ground game, but so does Lucario. Although Olimar has superb grabs and smashes, Lucario's excellent aerial game makes up for that. Most of all, Lucario can easily gimp Olimar. Thus, it is even.
Lucario vs. Snake should be even. Lucario's F-smash>Snake's tilts. Lucario in the air>>>Snake. Both are heavy. Snake has a powerful aerial game, but Lucario's has lingering, large, and fast hitboxes, but Snake's ground game is great, so they're even.
This thread backs my claim.
Lucario vs. Olimar is even, too. If Olimar uses his forward B on Lucario, he can just use down B for easy damage/easy kill (unless it's shielded). Olimar has a fine ground game, but so does Lucario. Although Olimar has superb grabs and smashes, Lucario's excellent aerial game makes up for that. Most of all, Lucario can easily gimp Olimar. Thus, it is even.
How so? Her float ability makes it really hard for them to grab her, and she's harder to CG than the rest of the cast.
Sharky
Smash Master
As for myself, I'm stuck working full time on a justaboveminimum job trying to pay my old school $4500 so they'll send out transcripts for me again. So yeah, travel isn't much of an option for me right now, and I'm in basically the same position as you, Mmac, but with less opportunities to even get online play in, of late. =/ If someone who can record wants to play me, I'd be glad to oblige if my schedule allows, however. =)
TKD
Smash Lord
Both quoted for truth. For IC vs Peach...grabs **** EVERY CHARACTER, so "ic's grabs **** "X" character" is like stating ""X" char can edgehog Olimar". Being good against IC is about your character's ability not to get grabbed, and peach is always floating and can outprioritize the IC with her aerials, plus, as Peach, you're able to make them roll when you get blocked via dair>nair.
Being hard to chaingrab isn't a valid argument, though. Every character should be chaingrabbed 100% of the time if the IC plays well.
Mario_ 101
Smash Ace
Why is squirtle vs. mario neutral? everything squirtle can do mario can do better.
Clai
Smash Lord
You misread what I said. I said Link > Ganondorf, so what you said was kind of redundant. Sorry about the confusion.
You realize that every character has its own different timing for the IC's chaingrab, right? You realize that you're saying that in order for an IC player to be considered "good," that player has to memorize the timing for every single character in the game, realize which timing to use when they're playing a certain character, incorporate that specific timing for that character every time IC's play that character, and use that timing, every single time, without messing up once? This is why the IC's aren't banned or super-ultra tier, because players are human, and they can't reliably do that all the time.
Also, why is Squirtle the only character (other than Ganondorf, but our matchup thread says that we have the advantage here as well) the only character that's neutral to Captain Falcon? Everyone knows that Falcon has the disadvantage against every character in the game, just change it already (I died a little inside saying that, but it's better than having Ganondorf have all the x's, I guess).
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Hmmm, pretty good, pretty good. Some disputes, though.
For Pikachu, it says the Sonic match-up is in Pikachu's favor and the Olimar match-up is in Olimar's favor.
The Pikachu board has already consulted both the Sonic and Olimar boards and we have come to the agreement that Pikachu vs. Sonic is neutral, and Pikachu vs. Olimar is neutral as well.
Please change it so that it reflects the boards' consensuses. Thanks.
For Pikachu, it says the Sonic match-up is in Pikachu's favor and the Olimar match-up is in Olimar's favor.
The Pikachu board has already consulted both the Sonic and Olimar boards and we have come to the agreement that Pikachu vs. Sonic is neutral, and Pikachu vs. Olimar is neutral as well.
Please change it so that it reflects the boards' consensuses. Thanks.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff vs Ice Climbers should be neutral because even if your sheilding with IC Jigglypuff's rollout will always hit Nana and thus seperating the two. After that Jigglypuff can kill nana and take single IC in a regular 1 v1, and with jiggly's edge guarding techniques popo will have a really hard time getting back on the stage. This alone should at least make the matchup neutral.
Morrigan
/!\<br>\¡/
- Joined
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But how do you land the rollout in the first place?
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Catch them off gaurd. Attack their landing recovery, rollout out of tech. Ect, a jigglypuf player knows how to hit with rollout.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Wrong, the reason ICs aren't super tier is that their grab range isn't large enough to be a threat to the vast majority of the cast. Just outspace them and you're fine, this applies to most of the cast.
It has nothing to do with an lack of technical ability by the players.
Also, Lucario vs. ROB is neutral (it is agreed by both the Lucario and ROB boards), and Lucario vs. Kirby is also neutral (it is agreed by both boards). Quick link
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
This is quite correct i think ^_^;;
Jigglypuff retreating aerials will give them a hard time grabbing her, pound stops most of their attacks and eats a good portion of their shield, drill rest is effective especially if nana doesn't shield and combine that with edgeguarding+aerial game and you get a very evasive jiggly ;o
I don't know if this is correct but does Jigglypuff floatiness affect CGs? I've noted that the ICs seem to mess thei timing even more with jiggly, and you can also DI the forward and backwards throws ... i think o.o so you get launched upwards, not horizontally D=
lain
Smash Master
IC's have the advantage against Fox, Falco, Ivysaur(wth?), Kirby, Link, Lucas, Luigi, Peach, Pit, Squirtle, T. Link, Wolf, and Zelda.
No effing clue why those are neutral/bad.
No effing clue why those are neutral/bad.
gantrain05
Smash Master
well, its neutral to fox because of how easily he can split popo and nana, once he gets nana away he can easily combo her to death percents in very little time, and your kidding about peach right? she just destroys the IC's, her arial game makes it almost impossible for her to get grabbed, which makes it a very hard fight for the iceys. as for the other characters you mentioned i couldn't say i don't main any of then besides T.link and i agree on disadvantage on that one.
SSBBChess
Smash Rookie
nice must have taken a lot of time.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Your MK matchups are woefully misleading, FYI... I thought everyone knew by now that he has several matchups that are around even.
powell651234
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
- Messages
- 86
no way that Ike has the edge against Samus...no way.
Clai
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure IC players are okay enough that they can work around their lack of grab range through good use of aerials, ice blocks, and blizzards. I mean, if what you're saying is true, all you need to do is land a grab three times and you win, right, since IC players should land death 100% of the time they grab someone? So basically all you need to do is lure them into a false sense of security, let them think they're outside your grab range, and then surprise them with an attack that leads into a grab. Instant victory?
Heck, what do I know, I don't even use the Ice Climbers. To be relevant with my mains, Kirby is definately neutral to Pikachu, and I'm inclined to say Toon Link as well, although I'm not certain.
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
yoshi is fairly neutral agaisnt these chars: mario, lucas, diddy(also said on diddy boards), ike, luigi, fox, kirby(also said on kirby boards), pit, meta knight...
there are some more but i think i have angered enough people with my comment
dont hurt me plz, i got my information from the yoshi boards and looked on other boards for match ups i didnt see alot of them
if theres is any disagree meant plz post sumthin in yoshi boards and we will answer
there are some more but i think i have angered enough people with my comment
dont hurt me plz, i got my information from the yoshi boards and looked on other boards for match ups i didnt see alot of them
if theres is any disagree meant plz post sumthin in yoshi boards and we will answer
Samus has sucking smashes (no offense samus, you are still awesome in YOUR games) and Ike has FRIKIGN HUEG Smashes, and longer range aerials. Note the misspelling, which is used specifically to emphasize my point. Of course, both of our posts our biased, so let us have a reasonable person settle this.
My smashes are huger than yours so I win? If only MK believed that...
BanjoKazooiePro
Smash Champion
MK = Check x35
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Even at my level of play, with Marth, it requires a major major mistake for them to ever get a grab off me. At top levels of play, for any character that is comfortable outside their grab range, unless it's only by a tiny tiny margin, a mistake is required that you'll maybe get one a match if you're really lucky.
Sure, if you land a grab 3 times you win... try landing it in a high-leveled match.
Heck, look at all the match-ups that involve infinites, some are crazy easy to pull off (Ganondorf on wario for example), the question is generally, how easy is it to pull off. In the ganondorf match-up above, nearly impossible.
powell651234
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
- Messages
- 86
seriously? huge smashes?
What about speed? What about the fact that if Ike does his side B, he can't stop himself from getting drilled by a charge shot? What about the fact that Ike is maybe the easiest character to zair spam in the game? Also easy to spike with Samus' dair...a better dashing attack and uair and up-b will take away most of ike's slow aerials.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
what is this i don't even
QD is rarely used because of how bad it is.
Ike'a aerials can also deal with the up moves you listed due to the fact that both of them lack horizontal reach and Ike has some fast aerials.
Please take this to the Ike boards.
bigman40
Smash Master
It's been a while since I played a MK main (none that play well in my college). Maybe I'll find one when I head to a tourney in December. If not, you'll only see me play one online.Bwett, Bigman, and Furbs, Those three from what I've seen are the Better Yoshi's out there. Green Ace is also excellent from what I've heard, but he hangs out at AiB and doesn't come here. There's also Yoster, and Yoshinaitor, but I haven't seen them play yet...
Well I'm stuck on a crappy Island, so unless you take online into account or my community of.... oh 14 people (Which 11 Suck), then I'm pretty much screwed...
But seriously, we've done the work and looked at it constantly over again to make sure we don't miss anything that can change the matchups. We aren't lying to anyone when we state matchups, especially when some other mains pop in our thread, and agree with us. Also, most that you're skeptical, I'm betting that we have Grab release options on them. From nearly that alone is what helps get our problem of killing out of the way since you get grabbed, your dead.
Clai
Smash Lord
Are you trying to be condenscending to me? All I'm trying to do is theorycrafting scenarios based on the high-level metagame (granted I don't have access to high-level tournaments, but I am determined enough to at least study what the metagame is like so I am not caught off guard when I ever do get the chance) and try and take the point of view of both combatants. Being as I use Ganondorf, I know a few things about doing everything I can to get past my weaknesses and incorporate my strengths using inventive and innovative strategies. Being as the IC community holds one of the most devastating techniques, I can only assume it's natural that each player tries his/her own strategy to get around a lack of grab range and either have a really strong skill set that can pressure opponents so that they are rarely ever comfortable outside the IC's grab range, or perhaps build a very strong non-grab related game in which chaingrabs are only icing to the battle.
Please, don't assume that just because I don't have much tournament experience that you can prance around talking about "your level of play" and how it must be superior to mine. The only level of play that matters is the level of theory in which we are basing our matchups are, and it's a field that we all share our knowledge.
Yes, listen to the man with 30 posts!
Either give a reason or go home, sorry.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ummm, it doesn't matter how many posts he has.
The point is the stupidity shines through.
Peach > Wario
Peach = Diddy
Peach > Ike
Fix these, mainers of both characters will agree.
Peach = Diddy
Peach > Ike
Fix these, mainers of both characters will agree.
I disagree. Peach = Ike. Ike's strengths hit on Peach's weaknesses, while Peach's strengths hit Ike's weaknesses.
gamegeek27
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2008
- Messages
- 16
This chart is awsome.
This is clearly the only chart you've seen so far.
M.K
Level 55
I believe that Zero Suit Samus doesn't just have an advantage on DK, but I believe she has a BIG advantage!
Donkey Kong's size enables her to hit with all of the hits of her USmash which leads right into a DSmash to UP B Chain. She can easily Flip jump spike his horizontal recovery. He is a big target that is just easy to hit overall with ZSS's range.
Donkey Kong's size enables her to hit with all of the hits of her USmash which leads right into a DSmash to UP B Chain. She can easily Flip jump spike his horizontal recovery. He is a big target that is just easy to hit overall with ZSS's range.
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