kupo15
Smash Hero
I see no one cares to discuss how we will tell PW to make a shield stun code? I wanna make sure we tell him this right the first time. We dont want another hitstun fiasco.....:\
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Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)
- Thread starter Wind Owl
- Start date
metaXzero
Smash Champion
*sigh* Where's Magus when you need him?
kupo15
Smash Hero
Added my powershield plan
Powershielding
-Decrease the window by 1 frame
-No auto powershield. You must manually powershield attacks
-Shield shove is as if you are regular shielding
-Add projectile reflective properties (bonus)
Powershielding
-Decrease the window by 1 frame
-No auto powershield. You must manually powershield attacks
-Shield shove is as if you are regular shielding
-Add projectile reflective properties (bonus)
MuBa
Smash Lord
Shield Stun is definitely important.
But do you guys think it would be a good idea to have faster execution of attacks? I've noticed that Melee's and 64's attacks started and ended quicker than Brawl. It'll make the game faster paced and more exciting. Plus we can also adjust the appropriate hitstun for it.
But do you guys think it would be a good idea to have faster execution of attacks? I've noticed that Melee's and 64's attacks started and ended quicker than Brawl. It'll make the game faster paced and more exciting. Plus we can also adjust the appropriate hitstun for it.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
If all those actions are currently possible out of stun, then it wouldn't make no difference to change the actual value. So it makes sense to start there. I don't have any bright ideas about shield stun at the moment though.
I don't think faster attacks would make a big difference in Brawl's floaty, high-knockback engine. It would simply make moves more spammable in general.
MuBa
Smash Lord
I've also proposed an idea of having increased momentum in running jumps AND faster falls while retaining the same jump height except for short hops.
kupo15
Smash Hero
wow, the OP needs a big update
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
ok kupo. would it be possible to add a button lag type property to releasing the shield? something like [release shield + x amount of frames = shield drop]?
Team Giza
Smash Lord
It probably would be possible to do that or just slow down the shield dropping animation. However I am afraid this might mess up a few characters defense tactics a little too much. I think it would be better just to add more hitstun.
If you were thinking of doing this as a way to limit the offensive characters options after an S-cancel then I just have to say I think it would be better to eventually scrap S-canceling and use something similar to Magus' idea for an aerial cancel.
zxeon
Smash Lord
We need the ablility to fast fall before we get to the apex of a jump.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
No worries. It probably won't be in the final standard for brawl+ anyway because of various problems it causes (including online desyncs). Plus the wavedashing movement created by the code is a bit sloppy and somewhat overpowering. It would be much better if we just scrap the code from the standard and try to eventually get dashdancing.
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
I like using MAD personally.
Im not thinking of shield drop lag as a form to limit S Cancel. I just think it's good to have shield pressuring back. I stopped using S Cancel and yeah it does seem nice to not need to manually cancel my moves (ALC) but I think it would be nice to still further reduce landing lag... is it possible to have on auto L Cancel but have another manual L Cancel on top of that to drop the landing lag to 1/4 instead of just 1/2? This keeps the reward of auto L Cancel but also gives (for chars like Bowser) an extra reward for good tech skill like in melee. I know it's a bad idea because it practically brings back S Cancel and makes chars like D3 have insanely spammable moves that they shouldnt (dair), but is this possible?
I would still prefer this later down the line though, shield drop lag does need to show up and also ledges that you have to grab, instead of them grabbing you. I don't think this would kill tether recoveries completely, but instead make it to where the player using a tether char would have to know their spacing better (since the tether will go up at about a 45 to 50 degree angle) and still be able to use those recoveries effectively, but they just wouldn't immediately look for the ledge and attach itself from anywhere. I would love to see a non-auto sweetspot brough back so edge hogging and edge guarding become useful again.
Im not thinking of shield drop lag as a form to limit S Cancel. I just think it's good to have shield pressuring back. I stopped using S Cancel and yeah it does seem nice to not need to manually cancel my moves (ALC) but I think it would be nice to still further reduce landing lag... is it possible to have on auto L Cancel but have another manual L Cancel on top of that to drop the landing lag to 1/4 instead of just 1/2? This keeps the reward of auto L Cancel but also gives (for chars like Bowser) an extra reward for good tech skill like in melee. I know it's a bad idea because it practically brings back S Cancel and makes chars like D3 have insanely spammable moves that they shouldnt (dair), but is this possible?
I would still prefer this later down the line though, shield drop lag does need to show up and also ledges that you have to grab, instead of them grabbing you. I don't think this would kill tether recoveries completely, but instead make it to where the player using a tether char would have to know their spacing better (since the tether will go up at about a 45 to 50 degree angle) and still be able to use those recoveries effectively, but they just wouldn't immediately look for the ledge and attach itself from anywhere. I would love to see a non-auto sweetspot brough back so edge hogging and edge guarding become useful again.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
Shieldstun should work the pressure stuff out. If it doesn't then this will be considered.
There has been a plan to make a landing cancel that takes away all your lag but costs a certain amount of your shield. This will work well especially if we make it so shields don't regenerate while in the air.
Magus420
Smash Master
Shield Stun and Hitlag in Melee (and most likely in 64 as well) was based on the amount of damage the hitbox does. I've seen the Shield Stun listed as:
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames
but in my experience, something closer to...
shieldstun = (3.5 + damage)/2.235 frames
...seems to be more accurate though still not exact.
As for Brawl, here's some data using the Luigi frame data I did awhile back in June:
Character . Attack .... Damage .... Hitlag .... Shield Stun
-----------------------------------------------------------
Luigi ..... Up-B Wk ... 1 ......... 5 ......... 0
Luigi ..... Jab 2 ..... 2 ......... 5 ......... 1
Luigi ..... Jab 1 ..... 3 ......... 6 ......... 2
Luigi ..... Down-B 5 .. 4 ......... 6 ......... 2
Luigi ..... Jab 3 ..... 5 ......... 6 ......... 2
Luigi ..... N-B ....... 6 ......... 7 ......... 2
----- ..... ----- ..... 7 ......... [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 8 ......... [?] ....... [?]
Luigi ..... U-Tilt .... 9 ......... 8 ......... 3
Luigi ..... F-Tilt .... 10 ........ 8 ......... 3
Luigi ..... D-Air ..... 11 ........ 9 ......... 3
Luigi ..... B-Air ..... 12 ........ 9 ......... 4
Luigi ..... U-Air ..... 13 ........ 10 ........ 4
Luigi ..... N-Air ..... 14 ........ 10 ........ 4
Luigi ..... U-Fwd-Sm .. 15 ........ 10 ........ 5
Luigi ..... D-Smash ... 16 ........ 11 ........ 5
----- ..... ----- ..... 17 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 18 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 19 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 20 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 21 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 22 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 23 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 24 ........ [?] ....... [?]
Luigi ..... Up-B Sw ... 25 ........ 14 ........ 8
Luigi ..... Side-B Ch . 26 ........ 15 ........ 8
----- ..... ----- ..... 27 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 28 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 29 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 30 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 31 ........ [?] ....... [?]
----- ..... ----- ..... 32 ........ [?] ....... [?]
The numbers all came from training mode which I believe only uses whole numbers for damage and should hopefully make getting the numbers easier instead of needing to figure out the exact decimal amount it's doing outside of training mode. To get the numbers for stun I tapped to the side a little early to have the game buffer a roll immediately as the stun ends, and did it 2-3 times to make sure it was accurate.
This assumes it calculates it on the damage it does in training mode and not the normal damage though, so hopefully that is the case. If 2 attacks do the same damage in training but have different hitlag or stun times then that would show that it doesn't. Within Luigi's moves though, all of the ones that did the same damage in training also had the same numbers so it's most likely not an issue and is indeed based on the whole number damages.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Nice! I already sent the PM last night describing what we want which is to disable actions during shield stun. It appears this data and post is referring to finding the shield stun constant to add a modifier. Is that right and is that what we want? Should I just c/p your post and send it to PW?
EDIT: Is shield stun like hitstun where you can act in it or is it simple just too low which is what this post is for? Like this means we need a shield stun constant? Im confused
EDIT: Is shield stun like hitstun where you can act in it or is it simple just too low which is what this post is for? Like this means we need a shield stun constant? Im confused
Magus420
Smash Master
The interrupt on hitstun was after what appears to be a fixed period of time. I don't believe there is such an interrupt for shieldstun, so you'd only need to modify the way it's calculated like what was added to the hitstun code to adjust the amount of it, which appears to be calculated similarly to Melee and is based on hitbox damage except it's much lower in this case.
I don't know if he needs to know the formula or if that's enough to find it, but using that and maybe filling in some of the incomplete parts could allow you to figure out the actual formula for it in Brawl. Unlike the hitstun formula though, there appears to be more than just a single value in it so to change it you'd want to increase both parts of it, otherwise it will give an imbalanced amount of stun to either weaker hits or stronger hits depending on which one you were to change by itself.
I don't know if he needs to know the formula or if that's enough to find it, but using that and maybe filling in some of the incomplete parts could allow you to figure out the actual formula for it in Brawl. Unlike the hitstun formula though, there appears to be more than just a single value in it so to change it you'd want to increase both parts of it, otherwise it will give an imbalanced amount of stun to either weaker hits or stronger hits depending on which one you were to change by itself.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
You know what code we need?
A code that lets you shield without clicking the shoulder buttons all the way in.
A code that lets you shield without clicking the shoulder buttons all the way in.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Ok magus, Ill let him know. I dont think we needs the formula though since he had the code done before I told him the hit stun constant.
Wolf: Im sorry, but i think its impossible. I think brawl disabled analog in the shoulder buttons all together. Just take out the springs
Wolf: Im sorry, but i think its impossible. I think brawl disabled analog in the shoulder buttons all together. Just take out the springs
zxeon
Smash Lord
There's nothing overpowered about the Melee airdodge code. I don't see where people are coming from saying it's overpowered.
Magus420
Smash Master
OK. Well just make sure he knows to include a modifier for all of the constants in the formula, otherwise it won't work as intended.
If it is set up something like:
Shieldstun = (x + Hitbox Damage) / y
Then only decreasing y will add most of the shieldstun to high damaging hits, while only increasing x would add most of the stun to weaker attacks.
If it is set up something like:
Shieldstun = (x + Hitbox Damage) / y
Then only decreasing y will add most of the shieldstun to high damaging hits, while only increasing x would add most of the stun to weaker attacks.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Its a good thing his PM box is full so I can include your last post also
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
exactly. it's a great code. It helps recoveries slightly, makes to game more offensive, allows better spacing due to WD.
What's wrong with that?
What's wrong with that?
MuBa
Smash Lord
I like the idea of being able to reflect projectiles back at the attacker as in melee.
However, I don't think we should make powershielding harder just for the sake of making it harder. The window as is, is very small.
In Melee, it wasn't really possible to rely on being able to powershield consistently.
In a sense, you would be kind of taking away options, and I don't think thats what we want.
However, I don't think we should make powershielding harder just for the sake of making it harder. The window as is, is very small.
In Melee, it wasn't really possible to rely on being able to powershield consistently.
In a sense, you would be kind of taking away options, and I don't think thats what we want.
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
but that doesnt mean MAD isnt necessary
How accurate is that frame data, Magus? A bit of experimentation seems to suggest that in this case, if we express S=(A+D)/B (S = shieldstun, D=damage, A,B are the constants), A~1 and B~3. This data is most inconsistent with the earliest values, although that's what you'd expect. I suspect there's going to be a range of solutions available. This range would be a lot better if the 1 damage hit having 0 shieldstun was an anomalous result.
Not that it matters much. Perhaps what is more important is what the constants should be changed to, presuming that the structure of the formula given is correct. I suppose the Melee values are a starting point, to be tweaked from there. I suspect for Brawl we'd want to have a lower value of 'C' but higher one for 'A'. Unless S-cancel is on, in which case we'd want the converse.
Not that it matters much. Perhaps what is more important is what the constants should be changed to, presuming that the structure of the formula given is correct. I suppose the Melee values are a starting point, to be tweaked from there. I suspect for Brawl we'd want to have a lower value of 'C' but higher one for 'A'. Unless S-cancel is on, in which case we'd want the converse.
Magus420
Smash Master
I'd like to say that it's all absolutely without a doubt 100% correct, but I suppose it could be possible that 1 or maaaaybe 2 of the numbers are off by 1 frame. Any more than that would be very unlikely.
It also could be somewhat possible that they intentionally made the weak Up-B coin hit have 0 stun when other 1% attacks might normally have 1. Or perhaps I did manage to goof on that one. If it doesn't fit into the rest of the data that would be something to double check.
It also could be somewhat possible that they intentionally made the weak Up-B coin hit have 0 stun when other 1% attacks might normally have 1. Or perhaps I did manage to goof on that one. If it doesn't fit into the rest of the data that would be something to double check.
ya i also like how people think MAD= wavedash ONLY lmao you guys fail to understand how much this helps olimar and ivysuar probably because you have never tryed it and are also making assumption like "it doesn't work in brawl" or "it's overpowered in brawl" ect..
peachfvl
Smash Apprentice
i think u should add the pokemon trainer infinite stamina to the list
Okay, you'll have to forgive my long delay. It's possible to find the range within which the two constants lie using fairly simple math, and I have at my disposal the perfect program for a visual representation of it.
You'll have to forgive me, I may have made a mistake somewhere along the way, and I'll happily divulge the math soon, but my brain is fuzzy from the time over here. However, if we assume the structure S=(A+D)/C as discussed earlier, your frame data is incorrect. If your method of data gathering is flawless (you stated previously you had a lot of faith in it, so I'll take this line of reasoning), then either I made a mistake, made flawed assumptions, or the model is incorrect.
My main assumption which I can see going awry is that Brawl rounds like we do - it may just chop off digits it doesn't want instead of rounding them. Alternatively, damage itself could be non-integer, which I suppose could throw a spanner in the works.
It could also be that there is another factor involved, maybe even one beyond our control. What if every attack had a hidden constant rating it's effectiveness against shields? Unlikely, but possible.
Of course, I think this discussion is also deviating from the purpose of the thread. I need to get me a Gecko =*(. It would be interesting to see if it were possible to write a code that would slow the game down to, say, one frame per second.
You'll have to forgive me, I may have made a mistake somewhere along the way, and I'll happily divulge the math soon, but my brain is fuzzy from the time over here. However, if we assume the structure S=(A+D)/C as discussed earlier, your frame data is incorrect. If your method of data gathering is flawless (you stated previously you had a lot of faith in it, so I'll take this line of reasoning), then either I made a mistake, made flawed assumptions, or the model is incorrect.
My main assumption which I can see going awry is that Brawl rounds like we do - it may just chop off digits it doesn't want instead of rounding them. Alternatively, damage itself could be non-integer, which I suppose could throw a spanner in the works.
It could also be that there is another factor involved, maybe even one beyond our control. What if every attack had a hidden constant rating it's effectiveness against shields? Unlikely, but possible.
Of course, I think this discussion is also deviating from the purpose of the thread. I need to get me a Gecko =*(. It would be interesting to see if it were possible to write a code that would slow the game down to, say, one frame per second.
thesage
Smash Hero
Is there any way to hack it so we can see hitboxes? I know that all the debug stuff was deleted but can't we just make hitboxes visible or something?
zxeon
Smash Lord
I was also wondering about this.
You're forgetting wave landing and wave dashing lets you do any attack out of it right? You have to stop if you want to attack out of dash
And wavedashing also allows you to slide backwards without changing directions. You can use this for attacking while sliding backwards, or edge guarding.
Not to mention wavedashing is a good mindgame to mix up with dash.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
Here's some vids I made demonstrating some aspects of brawl+
S-canceling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDFOb1ugD4
Auto L cancel, Hitstun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THbVo_yUiPE
A Match between me and my brother
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaDxnRQrCE
S-canceling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDFOb1ugD4
Auto L cancel, Hitstun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THbVo_yUiPE
A Match between me and my brother
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaDxnRQrCE
MuBa
Smash Lord
I believe there may be a way to see hitboxes. I am going to make an assumption here that the hitboxes are invisible to the eye but if PW can make a hack that can color coat the hitboxes then I'm sure he can do this.
zxeon
Smash Lord
With any luck I should have those replays I mentioned earlier up today. When I do upload them I'll post the URL.
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
Is there a way to transfer an in-game replay to the SD card and upload that to the computer? If not then I have no method of recording vids from Brawl, but I have some replays on my Wii from the tourney I just hosted and some demos I did with Ganondorf and Cpt Falcon.
kupo15
Smash Hero
No you cant in two ways.
1. Replays save button inputs so when your viewing replays, you actually are seeing the game playing your match using those buttons. So its not a movie file
2. What you can do is get it to your cpu, send it to someone through aim, have them put it on their sd card, play it on the wii and record. However, you can't put anything on the SD while it has hacks on it
So you just need to buy a Dazzel DVD recorder for 40$ at best buy. It comes in handy for things other than video games.
zxeon
Smash Lord
You can save things to the SD card while you are using hacks with Gecko OS If you are still using Ocarina just get Gecko OS it has Ocarina built into it and you can save to the SD card.