Brawl Flaws and a small bit of ranting

[ToP CaT]

It was just bothering me that brawl doesnt seem to have anything to separate the advanced players from the new kids. There isnt much to master with every character but a few 2-3 hit combos with each. Maybe a simple chaingrab with a few that you can't really finish off with anything. It just seems like a waste of time trying to get better when nothing is developing but simple tricks that a few months ago melee players wouldnt of even bothered learning. Don't get me wrong I play brawl a lot but it seems bad that most people cant decide on a main character because if you can play one you can play most anyone once you get to a certain skill. Im not a brawl hater by any means I just wonder if its even worth it. The community should either decided to play brawl or melee...but everyone being split is just making tournaments ****ty.

dont flame its just my thoughts

 

[Mathieu21]

I disagree.

 

[mzink*]

yea brawl is alot more of a mental game then combo/tech game. its all about out thinking your opponent and so it is slowed down alot. its a completely different game so a different type of smasher is going to be drawn to it. the community cant just decide on one or the other because you cant force anyone to let go of their playstyle.

 

[lilvietkoi]

It pretty much just depends on how you utilize your character to the fullest. And after thinking about it, is it that bad that the new kids can stand a chance against the advnaced players even though we're ALL new at brawl?

 

[mzink*]

It pretty much just depends on how you utilize your character to the fullest.

couldn't put it into better words myself

 

[EternalCrusade]

People just need to get used to the fact that Brawl is about mindgames and spacing, and while these things played a part in Melee, the thing that seemed to seperate most beginners from pros in Melee were the techs (wavedashing, l-cancelling, etc).

The techs did a good job of making sure that anyone who knew them had a big advantage, but whats the difference anymore? Anybody going to a melee tourny these days knows about wavedashing, and if brawl had wavedashing theyd know about that too. So whats the difference if everybody knows about them? Youre not surprising anyone by sliding around the stage like an ice skater. And you can say "well, some people didnt take the time to learn them so even though they knew about it they still had a disadvantage". Well then those people suck anyway right? So they'll get knocked out round one or two and its as if they never entered in the first place.

There are still huge gaps in the differences in skills between players, just like melee and smash 64 and COD4 and every other game EVER. Becoming a good player is about practicing and learning the game; in Melee, that meant learning to wavedash, in Brawl it doesnt.

For some reason, I'm having trouble expressing my thoughts on the matter in written word...I'll edit this later or post a new response with my revised opinion...

NOTE: while I think advanced techs in melee could give you a big advantage, I dont think it was nessessary to use them to be great at it

It pretty much just depends on how you utilize your character to the fullest. And after thinking about it, is it that bad that the new kids can stand a chance against the advnaced players even though we're ALL new at brawl?

For now, Im going to go ahead and say I agree with this guy. It's not bad that new players and old players are on more equal ground NOW, because it's all new to us to a cetain extent, but as time passes, the differences in all of our skills will grow larger and more obvious. Already, however, there are big differences between the nublets and the pros.

 

[ToP CaT]

People just need to get used to the fact that Brawl is about mindgames and spacing, and while these things played a part in Melee, the thing that seemed to seperate most beginners from pros in Melee were the techs (wavedashing, l-cancelling, etc).

The techs did a good job of making sure that anyone who knew them had a big advantage, but whats the difference anymore? Anybody going to a melee tourny these days knows about wavedashing, and if brawl had wavedashing theyd know about that too. So whats the difference if everybody knows about them? Youre not surprising anyone by sliding around the stage like an ice skater. And you can say "well, some people didnt take the time to learn them so even though they knew about it they still had a disadvantage". Well then those people suck anyway right? So they'll get knocked out round one or two and its as if they never entered in the first place.

There are still huge gaps in the differences in skills between players, just like melee and smash 64 and COD4 and every other game EVER. Becoming a good player is about practicing and learning the game; in Melee, that meant learning to wavedash, in Brawl it doesnt.

For some reason, I'm having trouble expressing my thoughts on the matter in written word...I'll edit this later or post a new response with my revised opinion...

NOTE: while I think advanced techs in melee could give you a big advantage, I dont think it was nessessary to use them to be great at it



For now, Im going to go ahead and say I agree with this guy. It's not bad that new players and old players are on more equal ground NOW, because it's all new to us to a cetain extent, but as time passes, the differences in all of our skills will grow larger and more obvious. Already, however, there are big differences between the nublets and pros.

yea im going to add onto this, i have more to say

 

[Taymond]

And after thinking about it, is it that bad that the new kids can stand a chance against the advnaced players even though we're ALL new at brawl?

It depends on personal opinion, really, and how you look at it. Nintendo has a large history of loving to "even the playing field" between players in their games, even though it is largely likely that the players who are winning are winning because they're playing better. From "chump charity" in, I believe, every Mario Party game to slowing down the lead racer in Mario Kart, and including highly beneficial items that are more likely to spawn for people in last place, like lightning, the Blue Shell, and now Bullet Bill (or whatever the item's official name is).

They like to give players who are losing another chance, in general. The thing is, though, those losing players already had a chance, and they didn't make good on it. So the question, of course, is do they deserve that second chance? Does a losing player deserve to be given additional chances solely because they're losing? Why shouldn't there just be the incentive to get better, so that you don't lose anymore?

It's "good" superficially, to consider it as "giving everyone an equal chance," but that's not really correct. Nintendo has a habit of giving losing players more than an equal chance at success, and that's pretty obviously unfair to winning players. It's important to realize that this is not the distribution of an "equal" chance opportunity to win. An equal chance would be to give no players benefits over the others, ever.

I race my way to the front, but once I'm there, all i get are single green shells and bananas while the people behind me get bullet bills, blue shells, and lightning every other item. I work hard to win every minigame to keep my opponent low on coins, but near the end of the game, they're awarded "chump charity" coins, which just happen to give them enough to afford the star they're 3 steps away from now, taking the lead over me.

This type of game behavior creates a regular flux in who leads at any given time, but it is important to realize that this does not make it, necessarily, an "equal" playing field. In professional sports, when the best team in the league plays the worst team, the best team doesn't have to play on their knees, or wearing lots of weights to slow them down. Why should worse players be given extra consideration? They'll lose because they're worse. Better players win. That's the entire foundation of fair competition.

 

[Koga]

I feel like the OP is looking for the wrong things in the game. No amount of tech rehersing is going to = profit in brawl and that's not really a bad thing

 

[Mewter]

While I think advanced techs in melee could give you a big advantage, I dont think it was nessessary to use them to be great at it

Yeah, I agree with you. In fact, I didn't even know about wavedashing until a couple months ago(Sad but true) and I've had the game since it's come out. That doesn't mean I'm a bad player though. Brawl is just different from Melee. There's less utilizing glitches and tricks and more skill and thinking in Brawl.(That's what makes it so awesome) I really don't care much for the absence of wave-dashing and L-Canceling.

Anyways, Brawl is different from Melee, but in my opinion, the pros are the people that actually try at the game (without using glitches) and have a varied moveset,.Plus, they can use every character pretty decently. The noobs are the ones that just spam strong moves over and over and over and over...(you get my point) So there really is kind of a way to tell the difference.

 

[Tyr_03]

Play Melee. It's a better game. The community is never going to just decide on one game so just make the decision for yourself.

I believe someone mentioned that Brawl is all about mindgames and spacing? Melee is all about mindgames, spacing and tech skill. Why eliminate a competitive factor? Why is it better to even the playing ground between noobs and pros? I'd bet money that even in a few years from now Brawl will still lack the major difference between pros and noobs that Melee has. It's simply not built for as intense competition.

The question you should ask yourself is why is it necesary to even the playing ground so that we all look like mediocre players? Why should it be considered a good thing that the game is tailored toward the lowest common denominator? I for one enjoy a challenge and Brawl simply does not present one to me and I doubt that it ever really will. Sure it's fun to play with a group of friends. But competitively? It just can't compare.

Read Taymond's post. My sentiments exactly.

 

[ToP CaT]

Why eliminate a competitive factor?

awesome point, its a competitive game..should the better players go after melee and the lesser players stick to brawl...being serious about a game is about dedicating yourself and mastering many aspects to cover a game not just shielding and rolling...

 

[Mewter]

Read Taymond's post. My sentiments exactly.

Wow, didn't see that,

anyways, I agree with you on that one. They shouldn't have made it easier for bad players, if anything they should've made it HARDER. If the new players can't play, they need to learn how to.

 

[Kirye]

There's a complaint thread. It's a sticky.. Why does no one go in there to complain?

 

[Mewter]

lol, I said that to someone one time... and as for the fact that no one seems to go there when they need to... oh well

 

[EternalCrusade]

Play Melee. It's a better game. The community is never going to just decide on one game so just make the decision for yourself.

We have played Melee and we think Brawl is better. Don't hold it against us and go back to the Melee boards. Or is the Melee community so far diminished that nothing new is being found and theres nothing new to discuss? Is that why you're here? Well then I guess you've come to the right place. New game, new things to learn, new things to practice. Play Brawl, it's a better game. But then again, we're arguing on an opinion arent we?

I believe someone mentioned that Brawl is all about mindgames and spacing? Melee is all about mindgames, spacing and tech skill. Why eliminate a competitive factor?

That was me thanks. I ALSO mentioned that mindgames and spacing were a part of Melee as well, but it's not as much as Brawl and if you can't realize that then you haven't played Brawl enough. None of us have played Brawl enough! *picks up controller and plays Brawl*

Why is it better to even the playing ground between noobs and pros? I'd bet money that even in a few years from now Brawl will still lack the major difference between pros and noobs that Melee has. It's simply not built for as intense competition.

It's not better to even the playing ground and thats not what has happend with Brawl. It only seems that way at first because this game is new to all of us to a certain extent. It takes time for the differences in skills between the top players and the noobs to increase and become more obvious, but thats happening every day, with every match being played. Melee's been around for about 7 years and of course during that time, certain players rose to the top and left others behind, and thats going to naturally happen with every game. Brawls been around for about 2 months and people are freaking out that they cant beat they're friend now in Brawl when they could in Melee. Well maybe if you accually played more and practiced with Brawl you'd get better. There are still very large differences in skills between players, even though the game has been out for a short period of time, and if you disagree, you have never been to a brawl tournament.

The question you should ask yourself is why is it necesary to even the playing ground so that we all look like mediocre players? Why should it be considered a good thing that the game is tailored toward the lowest common denominator? I for one enjoy a challenge and Brawl simply does not present one to me and I doubt that it ever really will. Sure it's fun to play with a group of friends. But competitively? It just can't compare.

We ALL dont look like mediocre players. Only the mediocre players look mediocre. Are you a mediocre player? You seem to be repeating yourself. Again, there are already very large differences in skills between pros and amatuers.

 

[ToP CaT]

We ALL dont look like mediocre players. Only the mediocre players look mediocre. Are you a mediocre player? You seem to be repeating yourself. Again, there are already very large differences in skills between pros and amatuers.

you cant mean this really? what separates them, im curious..i look at the great melee players like bs, azen chu..they all look mediocre and the same as people putting up their first brawl vids

 

[EternalCrusade]

you cant mean this really? what separates them, im curious..i look at the great melee players like bs, azen chu..they all look mediocre and the same as people putting up their first brawl vids

Im not up-to-date with how well the melee pros are currently doing in the Brawl scene but if you pointed out these people (azen, chu...) did you do so because they are top Brawl players as well? If yes, then there must be SOMETHING that seperates them from the other players; that is, if they win tournaments consistantly. Maybe youre better off telling me what it is that seperates their skill from the rest since you've seen their videos. If you cant tell what seperates them, then maybe Brawl isnt for you, but again, if they keep winning tournaments and beating the competition, then there IS something that makes them better. Its just common sense...it almost seems like you didnt even read what you wrote, because you proved my point

And if for some irrelevent reason you pointed out these players when theyre NOT top Brawl players, then I dont know what to say to that, but my point still stands; just replace bs, azen, chu with Tapion, Everlasting Yuzah (sp?) and overswarm

EDIT: And I just realized Im talking to the OP here who stated "dont flame me, just my thoughts". Let it be known Im not trying to be mean and Im not flaming or anything. Its just a friendly, clean discussion between differences of opinion, which I feel is what the discussion boards here on SWF are for, after all. There shouldnt even be a point where you have to write "dont flame me" due to fear of being flamed, but SWF is still a long way to go from that...we'll improve hopefully

 

[Mewter]

so with Brawl, it's going to take a while to get to the level that melee has reached in competetive play?

 

[ToP CaT]

brawl is for me, any fighter is for me, im saying if there were any definite factors to separate players it would be most easily recognized in brawl players who were already separated in melee...agree?? of course you do..so the fact that there is not is just another example of brawl not being competitive.

 

[EternalCrusade]

brawl is for me, any fighter is for me, im saying if there were any definite factors to separate players it would be most easily recognized in brawl players who were already separated in melee...agree?? of course you do..so the fact that there is not is just another example of brawl not being competitive.

Dont ask a question and then answer for me, because no, I dont agree. Just because you were good in Melee does not mean you should be good in Brawl. That would be too easy, completely unfair, and it wouldnt even make sense. You need to practice with a game before you get good, so by practicing with Melee, your skills in Brawl shouldnt improve and vice versa.

everyones all quiet, lol NEVER MIND!!! my pqge didn't load correctly so I only saw the same page over agaiin

Heh, thats happened to me a couple times before, but rest assured, we're not being quiet about the matter. Balls in the other court now, and Im going to bed, so I will read the things I missed in this topic tomorrow and voice (well, not literally) my opinion at that time.

Goog night smash boards! ^_^

 

[Mewter]

Melee was a very good game, and in Brawl there are many things that can instantly turn the tables on a pro and leave the noob victorious(AKA, the Final Smash).... But it's a new kind of thing, so we'll all have to learn it, like it or not, to be good at it.

'night eternal crusade

I'll check on this thread later(tomorrow) see ya

 

[AlexX]

brawl is for me, any fighter is for me, im saying if there were any definite factors to separate players it would be most easily recognized in brawl players who were already separated in melee...agree?? of course you do..so the fact that there is not is just another example of brawl not being competitive.

Brawl isn't competative because the people who were the best in Melee are no longer the best in Brawl? That doesn't make any sense...

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

There's plenty to separate noobs from good players. If there weren't, why would the same people keep winning tournaments? And why do I consistently beat most people I come across outside of the competitive community by a large degree (3 stocking)?

 

[Taymond]

Nobody intelligent is denying that there are obvious divisions between good and bad players. Of course good players are still going to beat bad players. And they do.

The problem is that slightly better players don't necessarily always beat slightly worse players. The absence of clear divisions that gets talked about is in reference to divisions within relative skill levels. Amongst "bad" players, the better bad players don't always beat the worse bad players, and amongst "good" players, the better good players don't beat the worse good players with the same consistency as Melee.

Great Melee players are still great Brawl players, because no matter how much anyone wants to pretend, the games are very similar. The games are comparable. Melee is the most similar game to Brawl that exists, because it's its predecessor. The thing is, in Melee, we knew say, this great player was pretty much better than this great player. If you were an early aspiring competitive player, you could expect to get 4 stocked by a good Pro. In Brawl, it's not so clear which one is strictly better. And as an aspiring competitive player in Brawl, you can potentially cause a lot more concern to a Pro player. Playing defensively, you can knock off a stock or two by the time you're beat, certainly.

When you got creamed in Melee, it was great. Losing was perfectly satisfying because it showed you "Wow, i need to work on this or that" very clearly. You saw where you got flat-out outplayed by someone who is downright better than you. Awesome. In Brawl, it's.. "Yeah, you're much better than me, but I still took you down to 1 stock, despite all my problem areas." It doesn't show you where to improve, and in fact, improving in those areas won't even help as much, because your opponent, the Pro, worked hard in those areas and guess what? He still lost 2 stock to you.

Nobody has said (or at least no one should have said) that a Pro is going to lose, potentially, to someone who just picked up the game. Obviously that isn't going to happen. What concerns us is that I might be able to hold my own against players much better than me. That players who are, technically, better than me, might just lose anyway, because there's not a whole lot of applicable payoff for their investment of time. You don't get as steadily better the more you play.

 

[Reyairia]

Of course there isn't anything to separate advanced players from new kids; The game just came out, at the beginning we're ALL new kids. Why is it so hard to understand?

 

[Corigames]

yea brawl is alot more of a mental game then combo/tech game.

Yeah, you know what sucks though? This is a thinking game, you say? Well, when you are good and done thinking just try to execute. You won't be able to do anything.

 

[falcon_for_life_and_for_smash]

top cat go speak some greek

 

[IJudgeUponThee]

It pretty much just depends on how you utilize your character to the fullest. And after thinking about it, is it that bad that the new kids can stand a chance against the advnaced players even though we're ALL new at brawl?

Qouted for truthnessness


Because you cant wave dash l cancel all that fancy **** it doesnt mean the game doesnt require skill you set yourself up for a flame when you posted this so dont complain if you find this harsh but stop whining about things like this its pointless certanly when you think your a vet at something that came out recently


oh and the whole seperating thing of good and bad thats ******** anyone can do all that stuff in melee and still get owned by someone who doesnt just remember that cause i find it funny that to prove you're good you need to do something special that might not concern someone who just started

Well to you sir i award you with [i own] Banner just put it in your sig so we all know that your good at brawl

 

[falcon_for_life_and_for_smash]

Qouted for truthnessness


Because you cant wave dash l cancel all that fancy **** it doesnt mean the game doesnt require skill you set yourself up for a flame when you posted this so dont complain if you find this harsh but stop whining about things like this its pointless certanly when you think your a vet at something that came out recently

do you speak greek?

 

[Mewter]

Nobody intelligent is denying that there are obvious divisions between good and bad players. Of course good players are still going to beat bad players. And they do.

I completely agree with you. I couldn't have said it better. The good players are still good and the new people can't really change that, but now it's just a bit easier to lose to someone not as skilled as you are.

 

[Mewter]

do you speak greek?

Ok, for the last time, what does that have to do with this?? And don't say "everything"

 

[IJudgeUponThee]

κλείστε επάνω το γάιδαρο

Compliments to Babel fish

 

[Doyouspeakgreek]

do you speak greek??

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Come on guys...these topics aren't going to get you anywhere. You're seriously just causing more tension between the two parts of the boards and it's going to end up where the two different types of players can't ever communicate without stupid flaming. It's already getting that way.

I like both games, and I spend a lot of time trying to good at both. There's no way some nublet playing defensive who is not as smart or knows the game as good as me will get me to my last stock. Know why? I'll do the exact god**** thing he's doing, and I'll do it better, because I'm the better player. If that person who is supposedly worse than you got you to your last stock, you're not that much better than him, like you previously thought.

Just give this crap a rest, AT LEAST for more than two months. The lines will be drawn, and everyone will know where they stand. If the game doesn't progress much farther in the metagame, and everyone ends up exactly equal, then you have a right to ***** here. But right now, there are people who are leagues ahead of others, meaning that the metagame is developing, and there are going to clear-cut pros compared to the amateurs.

 

[illboyzeus]

brawl is not more mindgames, you can't have more mindgames with less options lol.

 

[Bud]

everyone and there mom is new at brawl, but the melee peeps have more "smash time", and a noob won't beet and experienced player over all, that is a misnomer that came up when people said brawl is easier. The best still win, do not worry.

 

[Tyr_03]

There are definetly things that seperate new players from the pro Melee vets playing Brawl. Just look at some tourney results. Cort, M2K, Azen etc are still dominating as they used to. This is because they utilize what they already know about spacing and mindgames even though the tech skill is no longer a factor. There is a gap between noob and pro it's just significantly smaller. And we are not "all new kids" in terms of skill. If you think that then play a pro Melee vet in Brawl and see how long you last.

Frankly I think mindgames and spacing are actually limited in Brawl in comparison to Melee. Basic motion techniques such as dash dancing and wavedashing allowed for considerably more control over spacing and more complex mindgames. You can argue with that one if you feel like.

Compare Melee match videos with Brawl videos. You should realize pretty quickly which is more intense and skillful unless you're of the opinion that Melee advanced techs are "glitches LOLZ." Brawl videos just look slow and campy in comparison.

For those you expecting massive leaps in Brawl's metagame because it's only been a few months where Melee had several years to develope, I wouldn't get my hopes up. When Melee first came out, the concept of advanced techniques was not nearly as understood as it is now. People were not sitting with their Gamecube for hours on end purposely trying to discover the next technique. The smash community has matured and we now know what to look for. The fact that we have not found significantly more than we have with the ridiculous number of testing hours logged into this game is strong evidence that it will never develope dramatically even over years time.

Again I agree with Taymond.

 

[Thingy Person]

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Compliments to Babel fish

Quo modo tulisti? Paulum quoque linguae Graeciae nosco >_<

unless you're of the opinion that Melee advanced techs are "glitches LOLZ."

They are glitches, and you're betraying your own competitive nature by acting defensive about that.

 

[NES n00b]

They are glitches, and you're betraying your own competitive nature by acting defensive about that.

They are not all glitches. Upb and upsmash out of sheild are apparently not glitches as told by Sakurai. Short hop was intentional as was fast fall lcancel. Ledge hopping was, too. Dash dancing was there because Sakurai wanted you to turn around quickly at the start of the dash for whatever reason so that is not a glitch. Wavedashing was found in development, but kept in and was anyways purposefully programmed so if you airdodged you slid. DJCing was no doubt intentional we just double jumped and attacked fast to make it more useful. So what is left, like FCing, which honestly I don't know why it does what it does, and jump canceled blank. Even though it doesn't matter if they are glitches are not, it is just weird that people sometimes call intentional things and things not intended but made from intentional mechanics "glitches."