Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Corigames]

How is that a poor example? That just shows that Melee was more balanced

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is a poor example.

Mewtwo is extremely good against fast fallers like Fox and Falco, making him and ironically Pichu, good counter picks against the space animals. The low was good against the top, but stank against the rest of the cast.

This is a common misconception. The fact that low tier characters had ways to deal with high tier characters didn't make them a counter, it just showed that the game wasn't as unbalanced as some people want to believe. Pichu CAN Uair a fox 40 times over and give him a chance to win. This doesn't make him a counter however as Fox only has to Usmash that little rat ******* once before he'll die >_> Mewtwo didn't play well against Fast Fallers, he played HORRIBLY against fast fallers, it just wasn't unwinnable.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Smooth Criminal: I beleive the term is Shooting from the hip not at. Just had to get a correction in b4 Witchking did. lol

If you shoot at the hip people will start calling you "The HipBreaker" and if they start doing that everyone else is gonna think you have a thing for doing Old Ladys. See how these common mistakes can get really out of hand.

Oh yea and dayyyuuuuummmmm. It definely feels like this thread is being overrun. They're even posting in Melee threads now (if you know of whom I speak).

I DON'T CARE. RAWR.

Lol.

Thanks for pointing that out, Arby.

>____>

Smooth Criminal

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How is that a poor example? That just shows that Melee was more balanced

No it doesn't.

He's trying to prove the tier list, or power of the top characters, was closer together in Melee than it was in Brawl. The problem was Mewtwo and Pichu were good counters for the top two, fox and falco.

Ganondorf in Brawl isn't a counter for the top two, (Metaknight, Snake).

It doesn't work since in one game the fight was in favor of the bottom where it wasn't for the other.

It's not proving balance, it's proving character specific match ups.

 

[Corigames]

So...

Brawl doesn't have Balance or character specific matchups.

Melee didn't have balance, but it did have character specific matchups.

Melee>Brawl.

You said it yourself. No take backs. /thread

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So...

Brawl doesn't have Balance or character specific matchups.

Melee didn't have balance, but it did have character specific matchups.

Melee>Brawl.

You said it yourself. No take backs. /thread

You can't read. /thread

How hard is it to see that if one character was good against the top where as the other wasn't, it doesn't prove Brawl lacked balance.

Mewtwo and Pichu were good counter picks against the space animals, but not against the rest of the cast.

Ganondorf just isn't a good counter pick for metaknight and Snake, his ability to be a counter picks rest in other characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This is a poor example.

Mewtwo is extremely good against fast fallers like Fox and Falco, making him and ironically Pichu, good counter picks against the space animals. The low was good against the top, but stank against the rest of the cast.

And ganon isn't the same? I'm pretty sure he gets ***** by Marth, TL, Falco, Pit, and a bunch of other characters as well. At least Mewtwo was hard to edgeguard and had wavedashing and up B tricks. Ganon just kinda gets boned.

 

[RDK]

No it doesn't.

He's trying to prove the tier list, or power of the top characters, was closer together in Melee than it was in Brawl. The problem was Mewtwo and Pichu were good counters for the top two, fox and falco.

Ganondorf in Brawl isn't a counter for the top two, (Metaknight, Snake).

It doesn't work since in one game the fight was in favor of the bottom where it wasn't for the other.

It's not proving balance, it's proving character specific match ups.

The balance of a game is determined by character-specific matchups. Tier lists are comparing every character to every other character.

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is a common misconception. The fact that low tier characters had ways to deal with high tier characters didn't make them a counter, it just showed that the game wasn't as unbalanced as some people want to believe. Pichu CAN Uair a fox 40 times over and give him a chance to win. This doesn't make him a counter however as Fox only has to Usmash that little rat ******* once before he'll die >_> Mewtwo didn't play well against Fast Fallers, he played HORRIBLY against fast fallers, it just wasn't unwinnable.

So everyones just gonna ignore me and keep arguing something I already explained?

/wrists

 

[IrArby]

You can't read. /thread

Flamebait?


ahh Red Ryu if only you had the same approach for telling people your opinions as you do for telling people your location.

 

[Corigames]

You can't read. /thread

Well... you can't post.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No it doesn't.

He's trying to prove the tier list, or power of the top characters, was closer together in Melee than it was in Brawl. The problem was Mewtwo and Pichu were good counters for the top two, fox and falco.

Ganondorf in Brawl isn't a counter for the top two, (Metaknight, Snake).

It doesn't work since in one game the fight was in favor of the bottom where it wasn't for the other.

It's not proving balance, it's proving character specific match ups.

No, Mewtwo and Pichu both get ***** by space animals. They just don't get ***** as hard as Ganondorf gets ***** by Snake and Metaknight in brawl. What made you think Mewtwo or Pichu are Fox and Falco counters? Fox and Falco are actually some of their worst matchups (besides super mega hard counters Marth and Ice Climbers)

 

[sleepy_head83]

Brawl more balanced than melee? Not quite sure about that because the game is still young, give it some time. All i know is that the cake sure is.
*sorry for my previous post lol

 

[Corigames]

I would love it if English teachers did their job.

I can't handle all of this bull **** with lack of sentence structure, grammar, and posts devoid of any coherence. I can't discuss what you are talking about if you fail to talk!

 

[RDK]

Brawl more balanced than melee not quite sure because the game is still young, give it some time. All i knows is that the cake sure is.

The cake is obviously a lie.

 

[AlexX]

I the only one who noticed this topic's discussion seems to be going in circles?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So everyones just gonna ignore me and keep arguing something I already explained?

/wrists

Sorry about that, I'll address that.

This is a common misconception. The fact that low tier characters had ways to deal with high tier characters didn't make them a counter, it just showed that the game wasn't as unbalanced as some people want to believe. Pichu CAN Uair a fox 40 times over and give him a chance to win. This doesn't make him a counter however as Fox only has to Usmash that little rat ******* once before he'll die >_> Mewtwo didn't play well against Fast Fallers, he played HORRIBLY against fast fallers, it just wasn't unwinnable.

Both characters could juggle the animals into multiple combos. Mewtwo's tilts were effective, his upthrow could also juggle the animals into combos. Pichu like you said, had his u-air, can gimp their recoveries with Fsmash, stay toe to toe with speed, his recover wasn't easy to gimp.

Thats why I think they are ok counter picks, Other characters were better at countering, looking at you Marth, but it doesn't change my previous statement.

Flamebait?

No.

He wanted to be witty with his last post, so I responded in a similar manor to his.

Well... you can't post.

That nice the hear.

 

[Corigames]

That nice the hear.

Point in case.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Sorry about that, I'll address that.



Both characters could juggle the animals into multiple combos. Mewtwo's tilts were effective, his upthrow could also juggle the animals into combos. Pichu like you said, had his u-air, can gimp their recoveries with Fsmash, stay toe to toe with speed, his recover wasn't easy to gimp.

Thats why I think they are ok counter picks, Other characters were better at countering, looking at you Marth, but it doesn't change my previous statement.

No, your confused on what a counter character is. A counter character is one that has a huge advantage over its opponent. Pichu doesn't have an advantage over Fox, rather, its the other way around, Fox has an advantage over Pichu. However Pichu CAN win against Fox, like you said, this isn't showing that Pichu is a counter, it just shows that Melee is more balanced than some people think.

 

[Fawriel]

I think the point is not that Pichu and Mewtwo specifically have some way to prevail against Spacies, but that the Spacies in general have a distinct weakness or two. A whole bunch of characters have fast moves that can keep bouncing fastfallers up for continued hits, and Pichu and Mewtwo just happen to be among them.

I the only one who noticed this topic's discussion seems to be going in circles?

No, no, you are not.

So, I'll try to establish a final argument for my point:


1. The bottom tier in Melee has more potential than the bottom tier in Brawl.
Shadowclaw 2 proves that. Yes, Mewtwo is still unlikely to win against any equally skilled high tier characters, but the fact is that the potential for combos, edgeguarding, gimping and all sorts of other tricks, is there.
In Brawl, Captain Falcon has the potential to stall, shield, roll, and occasionally poke his opponent while he waits for an opportunity to get a single strong hit in, which may or may not ever reveal itself.
Unless some dramatic development occurs (like, say, Yoshi being the one character who can wavedash [check the link in my signature!]), this won't change.

2. The top tier in Brawl is objectively more powerful than the top tier in Melee.
No, Metaknight is not going to waveshine you off the stage or combo you from zero-to-death in 10 seconds. The game is slower and has no real combos, after all. But it's not about how quickly you lose if, in the end, you still lose.
The top in Melee had clearly defined weaknesses and, like everyone else, could be gimped. Fox and Falco are extremely good offensively, but are vulnerable.
The top in Brawl barely has any weaknesses to speak of. Snake's doesn't have weaknesses so much as areas in which he doesn't excel completely, and Metaknight has the single weakness that he's lightweight, which Fox was as well, but without the weakness of being comboable or gimpable. No, he does not have a move that can reliably KO you at 80%. But if you are KOd at 80% with an up-smash, or if you are combod and edgeguarded several times starting at 80% and ending with an up-b KO off the stage at 100%, it's still exactly the same result if you don't manage to get a single hit in during this time, which is very likely considering how MK is smaller than Fox, with more range and more priority.
And this superiority is likely to only increase instead of decrease as more people work on perfecting their perpetual "pwnsword" hitbox.


Brawl is probably more even overall, but the gap between the top and bottom is greater, and that sucks.

 

[Empy]

I the only one who noticed this topic's discussion seems to be going in circles?

It's happening with all stickied discussions as well. And it used to happen when other Melee vs Brawl debates were left open. It's mostly because random people come in and state the plain obvious, mostly being as wrong as all people that did that before them.

 

[Yuna]

That's because Ganondorf VERY SPECIFICALLY has bad match-ups against Snake and Meta-knight. It has nothing to do with tier balance, it's entirely based on Ganondorf-balance.

Replace Ganondorf with Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Samus or Jigglypuff.

 

[Yuna]

This is a poor example.

Mewtwo is extremely good against fast fallers like Fox and Falco, making him and ironically Pichu, good counter picks against the space animals. The low was good against the top, but stank against the rest of the cast.

Bingo. Many have claimed "Mewtwo had no chance against the Top and High Tiers!"... only, he did. Most of the lowest of the low weren't low because they sucked agains the tops (some of them sucked against one or two of the Tops, Highs and Mids). They sucked against other low tiers.

Zelda, Game & Watch, Mewtwo and Pichu (among others) had pretty good matchups against the Big 5. Hence, the "Low tiers are now more viable against higher tiers!"-argument fails utterly. Also, this is balance.

No it doesn't.

He's trying to prove the tier list, or power of the top characters, was closer together in Melee than it was in Brawl. The problem was Mewtwo and Pichu were good counters for the top two, fox and falco.

Ganondorf in Brawl isn't a counter for the top two, (Metaknight, Snake).

It doesn't work since in one game the fight was in favor of the bottom where it wasn't for the other.

It's not proving balance, it's proving character specific match ups.

Please look up the defiition of a "counter" before speaking further on this. Did you miss the part where Mewtwo and Pichu are bad against fastfallers?

I would love it if English teachers did their job.

I can't handle all of this bull **** with lack of sentence structure, grammar, and posts devoid of any coherence. I can't discuss what you are talking about if you fail to talk!

English is my third language and I can manage just fine. What's their excuse?

Both characters could juggle the animals into multiple combos.

So can every single other character in the game!

Mewtwo's tilts were effective, his upthrow could also juggle the animals into combos. Pichu like you said, had his u-air, can gimp their recoveries with Fsmash, stay toe to toe with speed, his recover wasn't easy to gimp.

Yeah, if they didn't DI. Also, and? They still had horrible matchups against Fox and Falco because Fox and Falco had much more on them than they had on them (lol).

Thats why I think they are ok counter picks, Other characters were better at countering, looking at you Marth, but it doesn't change my previous statement.

Because they lose badly to Fox and Falco? How do you counterpick?

 

[Professor Pro]

Brawl is more balanced but more terrible

 

[Corigames]

English is my third language and I can manage just fine. What's their excuse?

Lazy American ****s. You give us an inch, and we'll take a country.

 

[WaffleJesse]

Hmmm... It seems as if you guy's are basing a lot of this on tournament results. (Correct me if I am wrong.) But if I do recall most tournaments you couldn't wavedash shine.... You know... The single best AT in the GAME. Untill I see Snake or Meta doing that, well then Brawl seems a tad more balanced.

 

[Fawriel]

Hmmm... It seems as if you guy's are basing a lot of this on tournament results. (Correct me if I am wrong.) But if I do recall most tournaments you couldn't wavedash shine.... You know... The single best AT in the GAME. Untill I see Snake or Meta doing that, well then Brawl seems a tad more balanced.

Ahem.

2. The top tier in Brawl is objectively more powerful than the top tier in Melee.
No, Metaknight is not going to waveshine you off the stage or combo you from zero-to-death in 10 seconds. The game is slower and has no real combos, after all. But it's not about how quickly you lose if, in the end, you still lose.
The top in Melee had clearly defined weaknesses and, like everyone else, could be gimped. Fox and Falco are extremely good offensively, but are vulnerable.
The top in Brawl barely has any weaknesses to speak of. Snake's doesn't have weaknesses so much as areas in which he doesn't excel completely, and Metaknight has the single weakness that he's lightweight, which Fox was as well, but without the weakness of being comboable or gimpable. No, he does not have a move that can reliably KO you at 80%. But if you are KOd at 80% with an up-smash, or if you are combod and edgeguarded several times starting at 80% and ending with an up-b KO off the stage at 100%, it's still exactly the same result if you don't manage to get a single hit in during this time, which is very likely considering how MK is smaller than Fox, with more range and more priority.
And this superiority is likely to only increase instead of decrease as more people work on perfecting their perpetual "pwnsword" hitbox.


Brawl is probably more even overall, but the gap between the top and bottom is greater, and that sucks.

Not to mention that I expect someone to come in and say that no good player gets waveshined anymore or something to that effect.

 

[Corigames]

(Correct me if I am wrong.) But if I do recall most tournaments you couldn't wavedash shine.... You know... The single best AT in the GAME.

Unless every tournament I went to was ****ing insane or something... yeah, you could wave shine all you wanted. The only banned things were certain stages, items, stalling, and freeze glitching. That's always what should be banned. From there, some people banned wobbling, but that's as far as "other" options go.

And I don't think there was a "single best AT" in the game.

 

[WaffleJesse]

Brawl is probably more even overall, but the gap between the top and bottom is greater, and that sucks.

This is most probably the amount of characters in Brawl than in Melee.

 

[Fawriel]

This is most probably the amount of characters in Brawl than in Melee.

No johns. =P

 

[Vyse]

And I don't think there was a "single best AT" in the game.

Combo's were the best Advanced Tech in Melee
Just kidding : P

Just to add fuel to the fire (regardless of whether it's been said or not), Ankoku's well thought out Character rankings thread which rates characters by tournament placement is pretty good indication of character balance.

If it was a balanced game, we'd see more diverse lists, but no, this early into the game's development, there is already a massive trend in high placing players playing Snake and Metaknight. Subjective to change in the future, yes, but for now, Brawl is more unbalanced than melee in that regard at least.

Also, as is being discussed. Despite the tier lists in Melee, there still remained many many good counter-picks. Doc vs. Sheik anyone? Samus vs. Falco? I main Falco in Melee, and the only way I can win is by swapping to Sheik. There are quite a number of viable characters as counterpicks.

Now look at Brawl. Who do you counter-pick against MetaKnight?
Mew2king chose MetaKnight. METAKNIGHT? WUTDAHECK.

 

[Yuna]

This is most probably the amount of characters in Brawl than in Melee.

Good game makers would still be able to balance the game at least somewhat.

 

[RDK]

What pisses me off more than anything is Snake and MK's (and Pit's) ability to recover from ANYTHING. They literally do not die unless you physically make sure they do by making them hit the death wall. Metaknight's recover is just ridiculous compared to the other characters, and Snake's can be initiated right after being hit off of the stage. He can then shoot up above the level and then drop / airdodge on top of you or past you, and if you're not a multi-jump character (and even if you are sometimes) you have no chance at pursuing or defending him from above.

 

[BigRick]

the simple fact that characters that possess reflectors in this game also happen to be the ones with the projectiles shows that Sakurai has no clue about game balance

lol does Pit seriously need TWO reflectors???

 

[Browny]

Snake's can be initiated right after being hit off of the stage. He can then shoot up above the level and then drop / airdodge on top of you or past you, and if you're not a multi-jump character (and even if you are sometimes) you have no chance at pursuing or defending him from above.

sonic can pursue snake no matter how high he flies on cypher

 

[RDK]

sonic can pursue snake no matter how high he flies on cypher

Yeah, but Sonic sucks.

 

[St. Viers]

^^let's not go there, please.

Your opinion on sonic is probably several months behind ^_^, and I don't wanna start this fight in this thread.

Also, notice how when I counter someone's post, they never respond the second time--because I absolutely wreck their first response? I love it, because it means that they know deep down that they are wrong >_>

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah, but Sonic sucks.

Especially when you trip into Snake f smashes.

 

[lipidlad]

I love when people come in here and say stuff like

"I personally believe Brawl is more balanced"

then the next sentence is usually

"I don't know any of the "advanced techniques" nor am I part of the competitive scene, but every characters feels solid and very playable"

lol your opinion counts!

I didnt say that i didnt KNOW advanced techniques, i said i wasnt big into them. Sorry, but what i meant by that was that if your competition doesn't use advanced techniques-or try to but fail- then in casual gaming it has no place. Every player IS solid and playable, which is a huge difference from earlier games. But yeah, I probably dont belong much in this discussion because i am pretty much only a casual player. I just wanted to throw in my two-cents AS someone who is not competitive, looking in.

 

[Yuna]

Every player IS solid and playable, which is a huge difference from earlier games.

I'm gonna assume you mean every character, in which case you're blatantly wrong. You repeating this like a mantra does not make it so.

There are many who can be played solidly and well... it's just that there are also those who can be played on an entirely different level than that group of solids and those who outright suck for all intents and purposes.

But yeah, I probably dont belong much in this discussion because i am pretty much only a casual player. I just wanted to throw in my two-cents AS someone who is not competitive, looking in.

Since you're not a Competitive player, you do not play the game Competitively. As such, you do not research the latest and "best" ways to play each character. You cannot possibly know what you need to know in order to discuss game balance since your knowledge will be superficial and highly subjective.